The 9mm is the thinking man's caliber.

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J=Joules is a measure of energy, not power.

As nearly as I can tell, your numbers are the product of the weight of the bullets in grains and the velocity in fps divided by 1,000. That is momentum although the scaling is not correct.

Momentum is not a measure of power either.

Joules is a measure of work, when applied to a unit of time it is power. Energy is the amount of work needed to cause change.

Correct, I have supplied momentum. It is not power, but more important.

Although the two have similar "power" their momentums differ significantly, which determins how much force is needed on the receiving end to stop the projectile. Thus, you have significant stopping power with the 45 ACP, but little with the 9mm. The 45 ACP uses it's energy significantly more effectively than a 9mm.

Power:

115 gr @1200 fps = 519 J Momentum: 138
230 gr @ 880 fps = 536 J Momentum:202.4
 
Size Matters?

Reposted from my Gun Blog :


Size Matters?

You’ll see a lot of debates in gun circles, but none more fervently debated than caliber selection, especially when it comes to handguns for personal defense and concealed carry. You see it on gun-related websites and you hear it in your shooting areas; the old 9mm VS .357Sig VS .40S&W VS .45ACP debate rages on daily in the world of firearms. Now, there are a lot of folks that know plenty more than I do about ballistics. They read up on all the tests done by researchers using ballistic gelatin with denim and other mediums between the bullet and the test block. And these test are conclusive of two things:

1.) Handguns are not a great choice when trying to defend your own life. However, since I can’t seem to find a good holster that will conceal my rifle, a handgun will have to do.

2.) Each of those calibers listed above perform similarly in regards to expansion and penetration, provided a good bullet is used from a reputable manufacturer. Expansion and penetration are the keys they tell us, and I would have to agree. And If I ever have to defend my own life against an assailant comprised entirely of gelatin, I now know that a 9mm round will do the trick the same as anything else.

But to me, they key here is not that they all perform in a similar manner, because similar does not mean the same. The .45 still expands a bit more and penetrates enough, just as well as anything else. Which means you’re gonna have a bigger hole with the .45, assuming that every round expands, every time. But that assumption is false. Not all rounds expand, sometimes they don’t. While they generally expand far more often than they fail to, sometimes they still fail. Mr. Murphy sure had something going with that funny law of his, didn’t he? Now, I’m not particularly keen on putting myself at his mercy, so I carry a firearm chambered in .45ACP. Why? Because, if the rounds all do expand, gelatin tests tell us that they will offer near identical performance, but what they don’t tell you, and what anyone that can measure will know, if your round does not expand, a .45ACP is going to cause a larger wound and generally cause more damage than the others. I am betting my life on that round, so I want it to perform to the best of its ability even if it does not expand. So my theory is that you take the biggest, heaviest bullet you can control and hit with in a firearm that is reliable and accurate and carry it with you everywhere you can. Yes, to me, size does matter, because, while sometimes bullets don’t expand, they certainly never shrink.

Now, don’t get me wrong. I carried a 9mm for a long time before switching to .45ACP, and I never felt under-gunned and defenseless. Shot placement is god, especially when it comes to handguns. I don’t think that those that carry 9mm are silly or “sissies” for carrying a smaller round than I do. I have friends that carry 9mm, and at least 2 of them are far better shots than I am with a handgun, so there’s no question that they could make the 9mm count when they needed to.

The next issue that stems from this discussion is capacity. You can carry a helluva lot more 9mm than you can .45ACP given a similar sized platform. But does that really matter? According to the FBI, most gunfights last between 3-5 rounds. Any handgun can carry that number of rounds of any of the popular service calibers. So yeah, you can get 17 rounds per magazine from your Glock 9mm, and I only get 8 in my HK .45, but math says we’ll both be well ahead of the game given the statistics from the FBI. Now you can worry about a terrorist invasion or having to face 10 or more attackers, but let’s be honest here. If you find yourself that outnumbered against armed foes with the intent of harming you, you’re not going to do much more with a handgun than to kill a few and piss the rest off. Sure some of them might run after you get a few, I don’t know, because mob assaults are rare in this country, so are terrorist invasions. But, seeing as how I don’t like to play dice with my life, I carry a loaded back-up magazine everywhere my handgun goes, which is everywhere I go. If we find ourselves needing more than that, we’re already in more trouble than a handgun can get us out of anyway.

My rules:

1.) Carry the biggest round you can control and hit with. Bigger is better, but a hit with a 9mm is better than a miss with a .45 any day of the week. Practice often. Shot placement and draw time are more important than your gun or caliber.

2.) Carry a reliable, quality handgun. One that you are familiar with and can operate the controls in the dark if need be.

3.) Carry using the method that allows you best possible compromise between the ability to conceal and the ability to draw fast. Any method is fine as long as it is safe, concealed and you can actually get to your firearm in a short amount of time if needed.

4.) Carry as many rounds as you reasonably can. A spare magazine in case the primary magazine malfunctions is optimal.

5.) After all of this decision and preparation, make sure you are ready to use these tools if and when you need them. Be prepared, but also, be willing.

Oh, and P.S., when reading about the next “wonder bullet” that is said to be a “one-shot-stopper”, keep in mind, most people shoot until the threat is gone. If I shoot twice, but the first bullet was actually the killing blow, how would you know? When in doubt, “slide lock” and reload. If that first round is in fact the one that gets the guy, think of the rest as insurance. The little gecko would be proud methinks.
 
Joules is a measure of work, when applied to a unit of time it is power.
Joules is a measure of energy. Joules per second is power.
Velocity229 said:
Power:

115 gr @1200 fps = 519 J Momentum: 138
230 gr @ 880 fps = 536 J Momentum:202.4
Your new numbers are still not power. They are basically the kinetic energy (in Joules instead of the more common ft/lbs) and the improperly scaled momentum number again but this time without units listed. Momentum is a measure of how hard it is to stop a projectile--it relates well to penetration all other things being equal. (Which they certainly aren't in this case. ;) )

None of these things are "power".

Ok, you also mentioned "stopping power".

"Stopping power" is a term that is bandied about much but which does not have a careful definition--certainly not one that can, at this time, be related to physics or mathematics. Some think that it is closely tied to momentum, some think kinetic energy is a better measure, some say that bullet diameter is more important, some say fast bullets, some say slow bullets.

97's post is very good, but I'd modify rule one a bit.

Due to the relative ineffectiveness of handguns, it's not unlikely that stopping a person will involve multiple shots. Therefore "control and hit" means not only accuracy but the ability to make rapid follow up shots. Hitting is good. Hitting twice is better. Hitting several times in a short amount of time is really good. Hitting a lot in a very short time is best.

Obviously going to either end of the power spectrum is counter-productive. Nobody's advocating 500S&W or .22LR for general self-defense. The answer is somewhere in the middle, and the answer won't be the same for everyone.

One thing is absolutely certain.

Simply measuring a projectile will not provide an answer to the "stopping power" riddle.
 
NineseveN

1.) Carry the biggest round you can control and hit with. Bigger is better, but a hit with a 9mm is better than a miss with a .45 any day of the week

+1


JohnKSa,

Sure, as soon as we get a good emotional debate going, some wise guy has to inject the laws of physics into it. :neener:


DM
 
The .45acp is probably a better choice for a one-on-one upclose and personal attack, but a highcap 9mm has a decided advantage against multiple assailants. Take your pick, they are both good calibers.
 
The fact of the matter is, "energy-transfer", "muzzle energy"... have no bearing on a given caliber's effectiveness (ability to stop a fight), especially with handgun ammo. A BG isn't stopped because the hypervelocity 45 grain bullet transferred its energy to his body, but by the damage the particular round caused. The variables that affect that are shot placement, penetration & expansion. This applies no matter what handgun round you shoot - 9mm, .40, .45, .357, 10mm...

For more info:http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs3.htm

I carry both 9mm and .45, and I trust my family's lives with either. The fact is, for all the major handgun rounds, you can find quality JHP ammo that will penetrate and expand more than enough to do the job.
 
Sorry to be late to this thread. The point I am expressing is not mine, but one expressed by a shooting buddy.

"Sure 9mm is the thinking man's caliber! After shooting the bad guy, the 9mm thinking man then has to think about where to run to for safety until the bad guy finally bleeds out...ALA Miami FBI shootout"

Along similar lines, I took several friends from work to shoot at my place and I introduced them to a Barrett .50 BMG. One coworker noted after he fired it for the first time, "This is a real man's gun." I had to politely explain that it was a weenie man's gun as any weenie man could shoot it and with an effective range of 2000 yards, a weenie man could keep the opposition at a safe distance.

I then showed him a .22 pistol and explained that it was a real man's gun. He looked confused. I explained that it was a real man's gun because after you shoot your attacker with all five shots, it still comes down to the real man beating the bad guy with the gun as a club and with his fists in order to finally subdue the bad guy. The .22 is like the bell sounding for Round 1 of a boxing match.

He smiled and said if that is the way it was, then he would prefer to be a weenie man as he finished off the mag from the Barrett.
 
Sorry, that title's been taken ...

:evil:

The 10mm AUTO long ago earned the title of "the thinking person's caliber" and has yet to relinquish it.

A thinking man or woman is an individualist, not a lemming, and choosing the 10mm distinguishes them from the caliber herd. :p

The 9mm, on the other hand, is the default cartridge for newbies, hobby shooters, arthritics, NATO-appeasers, politically-correct police bureaucrats, and the marginally trainable everywhere. :neener:

:)D Couldn't resist)
 
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lol @ agtman,

What you say is true, if you shoot 10mm you won't be part of a big crowd. But then the lines for ammo are shorter.

DM
 
The 9mm, on the other hand, is the default cartridge for newbies, hobby shooters, arthritics, NATO-appeasers, politically-correct police bureaucrats, and the marginally trainable everywhere
Well, that's the VERY, VERY short list, and to be thorough, you should include the fact that it has been for 100 years. ;)
 
It does appear that the "caliber wars" thing always crops up, doesn't it? Okay, but if thread begins to deteriorate, it's locked. It's turning into the .45 vs 9mm threads that a search would yield plenty of.
 
Handguns suck. If you know you are going to have to shoot somebody bring a rifle or a shotgun and some friends who are similarly armed or preferably don't go to where that situation will be.

Should you have to use a handgun for self defense you better be prepared to get a CNS hit or to keep squeezing and be ready to beat them down or run after you expend your ammo. Caliber be damned I can't think of many handgun calibers that will magically kill an aggressive opponent without a good CNS hit and a good CNS hit by any caliber capable of penetrating to the brain, spinal cord etc. will do the trick.

I like .45 but I carry .40, 9mm, .38+P etc. They are last ditch firearms that are meant to buy me enough time to escape. I also practice frequently and do not have any illusions of any of them being an instant stop. Hell I don't have any illusions about the 12 gauge 00 buck being an instant stop.

Hit what you are aiming at and realize that humans are tough, tough animals. Always have a plan C.

Plan B is my decision to fight. My plan A is to avoid confrontation with everybody cuz I don't ever want to have to utilize real violence to solve any problem. I am more of a lets get drunk and fall down together kind of guy. :D

Chris

Ohh and before anybody asks.

AK47
big and slow
Maryann


That should cover some of the other common vs. questions. :D
 
The 10mm AUTO long ago earned the title of "the thinking person's caliber" and has yet to relinquish it.
And, of course agtman, the .40 S&W has proven to be "the thinking person's" 10mm. :evil:
 
Speaking of Glocks and SIG...

So speaking of Glock 17 and SIG P226 there is something that I think is important to make note of hear. While this thread is 9mm is the thinking man's caliber it is at least were I am also the working mans caliber. I don't just mean for officers and MP either. I have to do a lot of escorting LN (local Nationals) on post and off post. There is actualy a weapons room down at the gate that the locals can check in their Haar (means Hot in arabic ans yes they use that term) before they go onto the post. The only types of pistols that you see down there are those of the 9mm caliber and those of the .22 caliber.

Now for the more important part of this post at least to me. There was a serious crime comited on the post that I am on here over in Iraq. There were 31 SIG P226, 4 Glock 17 and finally 16 PKM machine guns stolen from the ASP (Ammo supply Point) last week. So not only is the 9mm caliber common here it is also easier to steal and I would guess find ammo for. I guess these becuase there were may other caliber pistols in the ASP that were just left.
 
agree fully that it is the thinking man's ammo throughout the world as it is the best all-rounder -price,availability, performance, recoil, capacity etc...

I think the .40 S&W has made great strides however and most of us (in Limited competition) shoot them just as fast as the 9mms, once you relax enough to just let the recoil happen, although outside of the range (w/o ear muffs) the report is a lot louder than the 9mm and can disorient you a bit..

There is not a lot of marketing of the .40S&W outside of the U.S.A. probably because the 9mm is so entrenched in the military/law enforcement and/or many countries allow smaller calibers to civilians... if I lived in the U.S.A. I would ccw a .40 S&W (probably P229, P239 or USP) since the availability of the round is widespread with numerous launching platforms available. In short, the .40 S&W is the thinking man's ammo in the U.S.A. whilst for the ROW, it is clearly the 9mm in its various format.
 
I just had a thought... I can't imagine that it means anything but thought I'd throw it out.

Using information here on the thread we can assume the .45 bullet as being 230 gr. I shoot a G17 with 147 gr rounds (9mm). If we both empty our magazines into a BG then the person using a .45 is putting 1840 gr of bullets into the BG (assuming 8 rounds), I on the other hand am putting 2499 gr into him (assuming 17 rounds).

Does this hae any bearing? I don't know but it is just something I noticed.
 
I think this all comes down to personal preference.
Each bullet has a different kind of recoil to me. The 9mm has a pop, its got a decent amount of backward motion and a decent amount of muzzle flip. The .40 is alot of muzzle flip but almost no backward recoil, i'd describe it as peppy. The .45 is almost all backward recoil and no flip, a push. All of these are more than managable in the right hands.
I prefer the .45 recoil. BUT i like a higher capacity. I choose the .40 for HD and carry, I like the peppy round and can control it fine. If someday i run across a 9mm or .45 that i am more accurate with and is more comfortable id use it instead.

Use what works for YOU. And hope you never have to use it.
 
There are different KINDs of thinking after all.

There's the armchair historian chewing his pipe and talking about his 'days with the regiment" who keeps a red nine Mauser C-96 under and early edition of Kipling and smokes only cavendish and think Holmes was a bit of a dandy, truth be told.

There are those cunning mercenary types in too tight black turtlenecks wth a Beretta Brigader tucked neatly between sweater and form fitting lether jacket crossing the US and ridding the world of mobsters/terrorists and all women who waltz into their warpath.

And of course we have the pack-a-day thirties gumshoe who keeps a Luger in the top drawer next to a bottle of rye... maybe he's not the smartest shamus around but he figures the Kaiser's krupp steel pistol is good enough--sure she's finicky, but aren't all dames?

And how can we forget the forlorn ex special forces cop who can sniff out trouble by just looking into the wind. What he lacks in smarts he makes up for with bravado, mad kung fu skills and one liners. He packs a 92F in his waistband and is frequently being thretened with 'rubber gun duty' psyche evaluations, demotion to uniform etc.

Not to mention our keen 'operator' working for 'no such agency' in 'no such place' Wasn't him, didn't go there, you can't prove it anyway pal. But IF he did go, and he's not admitting that he was anwhere near Basra on March 27th 2005 with a Blackwater Security Detail running a black bag job for the man, but IF he did, he'd carry a Glock.

Of course, the real line animals prowling in low slung black and whites made edgy by acidic coffee and the heat of streets are still strapping a SW 5906 on their hips in high ride leather... it ain't pretty but then, neither is the job, it takes a special sort to sort out the bad guys from the wanna bes... and maybe, just maybe make the streets a little safer for us all.

Not to say that the detectives in Homicide haven't seen their fair share of dispair and man's inhumanity to his own kind. These clever folk in blue mix old school canvassing with the latest in high-tech crimesolving techniques... DNA, laser thermography, spatter evidence, spectrometers and trace comparison... that's why if and when they need to slap leather in a hurry its going to be with a pistol instanly at the ready, and HK P-7.

Now back to the real thinkers... ok the mad scientist tinkerers at home who think nothing of lathing down .308 brass to 25mm and crimping a 9mm bullet on top of 15 grains of AA#5 (well after it's been soaked in Uncle Bob's 'special sauce') and breaking the 2000fps barrier with a 124 grain bullet. He's gone through three Caspian slides trying to get it 'just right' but until then he's happy to show off the effects of the '355 rimless magnum' in a Contender.

All this 'thinking' makes my brain hurt. Nog.
 
A 'thinking' caliber?...

I 'think' at least for me, its a matter of platform, not caliber.

salty.
 
9mm = thinking man's??

I don't see how all those people (including me) who climbed on the 'wondernine' bandwagon 20 years ago were thinking much at AT ALL. Despite all the fanfare, it took ALOT of time (and plenty of poor real-world results) to get that caliber up to where it is now as far as a reliable stopper. Thank God for the .40...gave us LEs a nice alternative, long before 9mm ammo caught up with the hype.

Real thinking came in after the AWB passed, when suddenly extra capacity wasn't an issue, & the stopping power still sucked...thinking people (like me) chose the .40 as a great alternative, and also realized we always had had the .45. It (and the 1911) just needed to get popular again - which it did after a little thought by alot of people - when the 9mm was shown to be 'just another caliber', and not much of a wonder after all.
 
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