The Big Bore Marlin Hunting thread
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Reloadron
Contributing Member
You may want to give this current thread a read.
When it comes to matching the gun to the game, when it comes to brown bear you won't find too many people suggesting a large bore Marlin rifle like the 444 Marlin or the 45-70 Government chamberings. Most suggested rifle cartridges are the magnum calibers like 7mm Rem Mag, 300 Win Mag, 300 H&H Mag, 8mm Rem Mag, 338 Win Mag, 350 Rem Mag, 358 Win Mag, 375 H&H Mag, 458 Win Mag and the 416 Rem Mag.
Now all of that is not to say a large brown bear can't be taken with a lesser cartridge or for that matter a 44 Magnum revolver. Just to say the above listed cartridges are among those favored. Anyway, give the 444 Marlin thread I linked to a read. I believe each poster makes some very good points. As for me? Maybe when I was younger but not today. I have no desire to hunt or get involved with a large brown bear.
Oh yeah, I do have a 444 Marlin and it was a great West Virginia deer rifle, actually it still is, I just don't climb mountains chasing deer anymore.
Ron
When it comes to matching the gun to the game, when it comes to brown bear you won't find too many people suggesting a large bore Marlin rifle like the 444 Marlin or the 45-70 Government chamberings. Most suggested rifle cartridges are the magnum calibers like 7mm Rem Mag, 300 Win Mag, 300 H&H Mag, 8mm Rem Mag, 338 Win Mag, 350 Rem Mag, 358 Win Mag, 375 H&H Mag, 458 Win Mag and the 416 Rem Mag.
Now all of that is not to say a large brown bear can't be taken with a lesser cartridge or for that matter a 44 Magnum revolver. Just to say the above listed cartridges are among those favored. Anyway, give the 444 Marlin thread I linked to a read. I believe each poster makes some very good points. As for me? Maybe when I was younger but not today. I have no desire to hunt or get involved with a large brown bear.
Oh yeah, I do have a 444 Marlin and it was a great West Virginia deer rifle, actually it still is, I just don't climb mountains chasing deer anymore.
Ron
montanaoffroader
Member
One of the Marlin 1895 versions in .45-70 Gov't. More than enough to get the job done at reasonable ranges.
A 45-70 loaded with the hotter loads would work. But truth is a bolt rifle is a better choice. They are far more dependable, lighter and offer much less recoil than the hot 45-70 loads. Every one thinks levers are faster for repeat shots. Not so with hard kicking rounds. It takes longer to get the sights back on target with either type than it does to cycle the actions. A lever gun with light recoiling pistol rounds along with the much shorter lever throw is pretty fast, but not 45-70's or 444's.
The Alaska game and fish dept. did a detailed study several years ago and came to the conclusion that a 375 mag was their #1 choice if someone was able to handle the recoil.
In a close 2nd place was a tie between 30-06 and 300 mags when loaded with either 200 or 220 gr Nosler Partitions. They out penetrated 45-70, 444, 338 mag, 350 mag, and 35 Whelen when tested. Larger rounds like 458 mag didn't really do any better than the 375. Finn Aagard, a PH and writer in Africa conducted similar tests and reached the same conclusions. The 300 mag didn't penetrate any deeper than the same bullets from a 30-06 at close range, but would offer some advantage at longer ranges. As a result they suggest a good 30-06 loaded with heavy Partitions as the top choice for most people.
A link to the study.
http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/gtr152
The Alaska game and fish dept. did a detailed study several years ago and came to the conclusion that a 375 mag was their #1 choice if someone was able to handle the recoil.
In a close 2nd place was a tie between 30-06 and 300 mags when loaded with either 200 or 220 gr Nosler Partitions. They out penetrated 45-70, 444, 338 mag, 350 mag, and 35 Whelen when tested. Larger rounds like 458 mag didn't really do any better than the 375. Finn Aagard, a PH and writer in Africa conducted similar tests and reached the same conclusions. The 300 mag didn't penetrate any deeper than the same bullets from a 30-06 at close range, but would offer some advantage at longer ranges. As a result they suggest a good 30-06 loaded with heavy Partitions as the top choice for most people.
A link to the study.
http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/gtr152
Salmoneye
Member
That study is a tad skewed...
The reason the .45-70 does not rate highly is that they used Factory 300 and one 405 grain loads that are kept at Springfield 'Trapdoor' pressures commercially...
The .444 Marlin shows one single commercial load...It is not the load from that other thread...Interestingly, even with that load it ranks just below the .30-06 the 'study' recommends...
The .44 mag shows one 240gr LGC bullet exiting the gun at 1401fps...Any 240 should be easily capably of being hand loaded to close to 1900fps...I wonder where it would rank with the bullet from the other thread (Hornady 265gr FP) at around 1700fps...
I can only assume that it is the same for all their testing...
No loadings other than Off-The-Shelf stuff in any caliber...
The reason the .45-70 does not rate highly is that they used Factory 300 and one 405 grain loads that are kept at Springfield 'Trapdoor' pressures commercially...
The .444 Marlin shows one single commercial load...It is not the load from that other thread...Interestingly, even with that load it ranks just below the .30-06 the 'study' recommends...
The .44 mag shows one 240gr LGC bullet exiting the gun at 1401fps...Any 240 should be easily capably of being hand loaded to close to 1900fps...I wonder where it would rank with the bullet from the other thread (Hornady 265gr FP) at around 1700fps...
I can only assume that it is the same for all their testing...
No loadings other than Off-The-Shelf stuff in any caliber...
With heavy recoiling cartridges there is less of a difference, but a lever is still faster and certainly easier. The big advantage is not in speed between shots, but speed in getting off the first shot. To quote the report:
Most lever actions come up a lot quicker and point much better than most bolt actions. If I had to build a bear gun I’d look long and hard at something based on a Browning Model 71, because it is extremely well stocked and points and handles like a fine shotgun. A 71 with ghost ring sights would be far faster to point and fire than a typical bolt action with a 3-9x scope.
You have come to some interesting conclusions that differ from the actual contents of the report.
So what the study actually recommends is the 458 Winchester, the 375 H&H and the 338 Win Mag in that order as the top three cartridges. The 30-06 gets an Honorable Mention for those – and I quote – “who are sensitive to recoil”. And if you can’t handle magnum recoil, it’s a good choice. You should shoot the most powerful rifle that you can shoot well.
However, IMO, if you are going to make it your business to disturb grizzly bears, you should also make it your business to learn to shoot a big bore rifle. A 458 WM has more penetration, makes a much bigger hole and delivers nearly twice as much energy as a 30-06.
While the study has a lot of good information, it is 30 years old and a lot has changed since then. 45-70 loads are no longer limited to weak and weaker. A 400 grain A-frame @1800 fps is not to be sneezed at. And there are plenty of good 250 grain .338 bullets available now.
Sheepdog1968
Member
My thoughts are in my signature line below. Based on what I own it would be either a 45-70 or 12 gauge with Breneke slugs.
osteodoc08
Member
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The Marlin 1895 Guide Gun in 45/70 with appropriate loadings with hard cast lead is more than enough. I'm not talking about wimpy Springfield Trapdoor loadings. I'm talking 400gr slugs moving at close to 2000 FPS at close range (<100 yds).
Taylor Knock Out Value of 52.
ME of close to 3500 ft/lbs
375 H&H with a 300gr at 2500 gives a TKO of 40. Just as a reference point.
We can talk numbers all day, but the 45/70 just plain works.
Taylor Knock Out Value of 52.
ME of close to 3500 ft/lbs
375 H&H with a 300gr at 2500 gives a TKO of 40. Just as a reference point.
We can talk numbers all day, but the 45/70 just plain works.
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For bear protection, there is a lot to be said for a 12 ga with Brenneke slugs. Do not use Foster slugs or anything that expands. Consider a shotgun slug to be "pre expanded". A nice deep 3/4" wide hole will do the job.
A shotgun has the advantage of handling like a shotgun and you can't beat the price/performance ratio.
DM~
Member
Well, i spent 25 years of my life in Alaska, much of it hunting brown bears... Although i used a .338-06 for my "crawling through the willows" gun, i have to agree with one of the best big bear hunting guides in alaska, Phil Shoemaker!
A 30-06 loaded with 200NP's is all the gun anyone needs for big bears, going to a "big kicker" just turns MOST hunters into big flinchers!
I MUCH prefer a bullet that expands well, and still dirves in deep for my hunting, includeing DG hunting!
DM
Uncle Mike
Member
45-70, 444, 450 Marlin-
If you'll re-read my post, you will see that I agree with most of your points. I've highlighted the relevant part. I also prefer a bullet that expands well and drives in deep, better still a BIG bullet that expands well and drives in deeper.
I do think it's worth mentioning that bear HUNTING -taking your shot on an unsuspecting bear - is one thing, but the subject of this thread, bear PROTECTION - stopping a charging bear - is another.
It's also worth mentioning that I certainly respect Shoemaker's opinions, but while he may recommend that his clients carry a 30-06 for the same good reasons you do, he himself is famous for carrying "Ole Ugly", a well worn Mauser 98.
In 458 Winchester Magnum.
http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/article.cfm?tocid=1043&magid=75
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DM~
Member
Actually, from what he has said, he carries a DR chambered in 450/400, because he loves that gun...
I've seen big bears shot with .458's, using 350 hor, 400 speers, 400 barnes and 500 hor... None of them truely impressed me!
I was more impressed with the 7mm Rem. mag. loaded with 175NP's and the 300 Win. Mag loaded with 200NP's... Those two out penetrate the above .458 loads, and easily break any bear down.
I depended on my .338-06 loaded with 275 Speers, when following up wounded browns and i never felt under gunned. It would expand well, penetrate corner to corner of a bear, breaking bone and drive on through. I wouldn't trade it for any of the high recoiling cartridge the internet experts say you SHOULD be using.
DM
From my point of view, "protection" from grizzly means pretty close range (I'm guessing less than 40 yards) and from my experience a lever action rifle is fast on target and fast on follow up shots when range is close. It's shot and light enough to carry even in dense woods. I load some pretty hot loads for my Marlin 1895 including 425gr WFN-GC cast bullet going 1,875 fps from my Guide Rifle and I think that load will work on grizzly bear at close range. It should penetrate from one end to the other or from side to side.
Options as I see them:
#1 - hard hitting 'big bore'
Lever action in 45-70. Problems - A lot of 'off the shelf' ammo for it is quite tame. Solution - buy very potent loads from a boutique ammo maker or load you own. Problems from the solution: Not everyone is a reloader, boutique ammo is very expensive, and either way the recoil is stiff to say the least
Lever action in 444 mariln. Problems - the cartridge was designed to use the 44 magnum's bullet, which means there are a lot of light weight projectiles, not much sectional density which is needed for bear IMHO. Also, while the run of the mill cartridges are a bit more potent than the run of the mill 45-70, if you get into some of the more premium ammo 45-70 and 444 give very similar energy figures, but the hottest boutique and handloads don't keep up with the hottest 45-70 (not counting the monsters you can reload for a strong single shot). Of course very stout recoil in the hot stuff.
450 Marlin - Marlin intended to give us something where the run of the mill shelf ammo would be equivalent to really really hot 45-70 handloads, with no risk of someone sticking the cartridge into a relic and loosing their eyesight. Problem - rather than basically doing an Akley Improve of the 45-70, Marlin made some odd dimension choices and gave it a belt, so not a super-ideal round. Plus most premium hunting ammo for it is pretty much in line with the premium, real rip-snorting-hot loads aren't very often seen on shelves so in reality the cost and availability isn't much different than a 45-70. Finally, there isn't any 'soft' 450 marlin factory loads for recreational shooting, practice, etc. Of course very stout recoil in the hot stuff.
So what if you reload? Is the 444, 45-70, or 450 a good choice then?
Seems to me if you are going to commit to reloading, might consider reloading something more potent.
While not included on this chart, there is also the 450 Alaskan, which even keeping to the mild limit of 44K chamber pressure, spit out 4,200 ft-lbs of energy.
People started out pairing the 450 Alaskan with the Winchester Model 71, but there aren't many of them left. Now people are using marlins to handle these wildcats.
#2 Hard Hitting Medium Bore.
I'll start out with the BLR lever action and the 325 WSM. This round basically splits the difference between a 300 winmag and a 338 winmag, and does it with a shorter case. This has a significant power and a significant width advantage of the 30-06 which has taken many bear. All around a great gun. I expect it would stop a bear even better than off the shelf 444 and 45-70 ammo, and better than the premium hunting loads, but would be inferior to the hottest boutique and hand-loaded big bores.
The classic lever action medium bore is the 348 Winchester, although it was only ever chambered in one gun...the Winchester 71. Incidentally the Winchester 71 is probably the finest lever action repeater out there, and probably the strongest. This gun and this cartridge are the starting spot for the supremely potent 450 Alaskan mentioned above. The cartridge doesn't have the power of the 325 WSM, but surpasses the 30-06's heaviest bullet with it's heaviest bullet. It would have a slight margin of effectiveness over a 30-06 in a platform that allows faster shots, and overall recoil would be quite similar to the 30-06 but just a tad stouter. Unfortunately, they are no longer made.
358 Winchester - just like the 35 whelen is a 30-06 knecked up to give more short to mid range stopping power than the 30-06 without going to the extreme kick of a magnum, the 358 Winchester is the 308 necked up. Unfortunately, most factory loads for it aren't going to the top of the allowable pressure meaning it's edge over a round like the 30-06 while still present is smaller than it should be unless you are a hand-loader. It's raw energy falls a tad short of the round it replaced, the 348 winchester. Also, not many guns are chambered in it any more, making it almost a de facto used gun purchase.
#1 - hard hitting 'big bore'
Lever action in 45-70. Problems - A lot of 'off the shelf' ammo for it is quite tame. Solution - buy very potent loads from a boutique ammo maker or load you own. Problems from the solution: Not everyone is a reloader, boutique ammo is very expensive, and either way the recoil is stiff to say the least
Lever action in 444 mariln. Problems - the cartridge was designed to use the 44 magnum's bullet, which means there are a lot of light weight projectiles, not much sectional density which is needed for bear IMHO. Also, while the run of the mill cartridges are a bit more potent than the run of the mill 45-70, if you get into some of the more premium ammo 45-70 and 444 give very similar energy figures, but the hottest boutique and handloads don't keep up with the hottest 45-70 (not counting the monsters you can reload for a strong single shot). Of course very stout recoil in the hot stuff.
450 Marlin - Marlin intended to give us something where the run of the mill shelf ammo would be equivalent to really really hot 45-70 handloads, with no risk of someone sticking the cartridge into a relic and loosing their eyesight. Problem - rather than basically doing an Akley Improve of the 45-70, Marlin made some odd dimension choices and gave it a belt, so not a super-ideal round. Plus most premium hunting ammo for it is pretty much in line with the premium, real rip-snorting-hot loads aren't very often seen on shelves so in reality the cost and availability isn't much different than a 45-70. Finally, there isn't any 'soft' 450 marlin factory loads for recreational shooting, practice, etc. Of course very stout recoil in the hot stuff.
So what if you reload? Is the 444, 45-70, or 450 a good choice then?
Seems to me if you are going to commit to reloading, might consider reloading something more potent.
While not included on this chart, there is also the 450 Alaskan, which even keeping to the mild limit of 44K chamber pressure, spit out 4,200 ft-lbs of energy.
People started out pairing the 450 Alaskan with the Winchester Model 71, but there aren't many of them left. Now people are using marlins to handle these wildcats.
#2 Hard Hitting Medium Bore.
I'll start out with the BLR lever action and the 325 WSM. This round basically splits the difference between a 300 winmag and a 338 winmag, and does it with a shorter case. This has a significant power and a significant width advantage of the 30-06 which has taken many bear. All around a great gun. I expect it would stop a bear even better than off the shelf 444 and 45-70 ammo, and better than the premium hunting loads, but would be inferior to the hottest boutique and hand-loaded big bores.
The classic lever action medium bore is the 348 Winchester, although it was only ever chambered in one gun...the Winchester 71. Incidentally the Winchester 71 is probably the finest lever action repeater out there, and probably the strongest. This gun and this cartridge are the starting spot for the supremely potent 450 Alaskan mentioned above. The cartridge doesn't have the power of the 325 WSM, but surpasses the 30-06's heaviest bullet with it's heaviest bullet. It would have a slight margin of effectiveness over a 30-06 in a platform that allows faster shots, and overall recoil would be quite similar to the 30-06 but just a tad stouter. Unfortunately, they are no longer made.
358 Winchester - just like the 35 whelen is a 30-06 knecked up to give more short to mid range stopping power than the 30-06 without going to the extreme kick of a magnum, the 358 Winchester is the 308 necked up. Unfortunately, most factory loads for it aren't going to the top of the allowable pressure meaning it's edge over a round like the 30-06 while still present is smaller than it should be unless you are a hand-loader. It's raw energy falls a tad short of the round it replaced, the 348 winchester. Also, not many guns are chambered in it any more, making it almost a de facto used gun purchase.
I assume you're referring to his Zoli O/U. A double rifle would be an excellent choice for bear protection because of its fast handling, pointability and instant second shot. I mentioned "Ole Ugly" because it's better known. However, as far as the "45 heavy vs. 30-06" debate goes it's a distinction without a difference. The fact remains that Phil Shoemaker carries a 45 heavy rifle.
DM~
Member
Well, he told me he likes/carries the Zoli because the locks come out easy, so it's easy to keep clean and dry...
BTW, the 450/400 ISN't a 45 heavy rifle... No matter, it doesn't mean a "properly loaded" 30-06 doesn't get the job done, because it does, even Phil agree's with that.
DM
I note he says 'not effective'
There is a world of difference between 'not effective' and 'best choice'
Also, is he discussing hunting bear where the hunter has a lot more choice in the details of the shooting (in which a 30-06 with a heavy bullet is probably just fine) or is he discussing stopping a charging bear at very close ranges?
Clearly, thousands of grizzlies have been hunted successfully with a 30-06. Clearly the 30-06 is effective. That doesn't make it best. After all, even a pocket knife is effective on big bears
http://www.outdoorlife.com/articles/larry-mueller-and-marguerite-reiss/2007/09/last-stand
There is a world of difference between 'not effective' and 'best choice'
Also, is he discussing hunting bear where the hunter has a lot more choice in the details of the shooting (in which a 30-06 with a heavy bullet is probably just fine) or is he discussing stopping a charging bear at very close ranges?
Clearly, thousands of grizzlies have been hunted successfully with a 30-06. Clearly the 30-06 is effective. That doesn't make it best. After all, even a pocket knife is effective on big bears
http://www.outdoorlife.com/articles/larry-mueller-and-marguerite-reiss/2007/09/last-stand
OK, so it's a forty caliber heavy rifle. I sit corrected. It's still a large caliber heavy rifle.
For the THIRD time in this thread:
I have never said the 30-06 with proper bullets wasn't effective. I even recommended it for those with recoil issues. But IMO it's a compromise and a larger caliber would be better. The world is not always "This is good, so everything else is bad". There is room for more than one acceptable solution, and some acceptable solutions are better than others.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
I have a Marlin levergun in 45-70, several 30-06 rifles, a Marlin levergun in 30-30 and a Howa 1500 in 223. Those 4 rifles plus a few in 22LR cover all the hunting I will ever do.
45-70 will take anything in North America within a reasonable range. It is not a long range cartridge. It is however a fantastic bush gun. Plenty of power, big bullet and lever actions are short and easy to shoulder quickly as mentioned earlier.
Factory 405's are tame. There are however plenty of 300 and 350 grain bullets that are reasonably hot off the shelf.
I load my own and find too much power reduces accuracy anyway so I tend to download a little.
To be honest, the kick is not that bad. No where near as bad as my 300wsm or earlier 30-06 rifles I owned.
444 and 450 Marlin are really nice too however ammo availability for the 45-70 is better and it seems to be growing in popularity.
Conclusions: If you're going to be wandering in the bush, 45-70 is my recommendation. If you're shooting open field etc, 300 winny or wsm bolt action would be my preference.
Good luck, cheers.
Factory 405's are tame. There are however plenty of 300 and 350 grain bullets that are reasonably hot off the shelf.
I load my own and find too much power reduces accuracy anyway so I tend to download a little.
To be honest, the kick is not that bad. No where near as bad as my 300wsm or earlier 30-06 rifles I owned.
444 and 450 Marlin are really nice too however ammo availability for the 45-70 is better and it seems to be growing in popularity.
Conclusions: If you're going to be wandering in the bush, 45-70 is my recommendation. If you're shooting open field etc, 300 winny or wsm bolt action would be my preference.
Good luck, cheers.
I saw an old ad from Savage the other day. It had their flagship Savage 99 available in 300 savage and 250 savage with the note that the gun in either cartridge could handle any game in North America, and then offered up its 340 Savage bolt action in 30-30 for whitetail deer hunters.
I am sure the 250-3000 has taken plenty of elk and some grizzlies.
We do sure have different opinions nowadays on what an adequate 'take anything in North America' cartridge is. I sure wouldn't want to be going after a griz with a 250 savage as my first choice!
I am sure the 250-3000 has taken plenty of elk and some grizzlies.
We do sure have different opinions nowadays on what an adequate 'take anything in North America' cartridge is. I sure wouldn't want to be going after a griz with a 250 savage as my first choice!
ETXhiker
Member
Marlin .45-70 with the right (heavy) loads will handle anything in North America if the shooter does their part.
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