The Clinch Pick from Shivworks, grapplers beware.

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When will you get 'back' (from where ever you are going)?

Do you guys have a goal (time wise) for rollout? Process for announcement? Thread in this board, perhaps?
 
Nematocyst said:
I'm strongly considering a small belt-mounted fixed blade with 3" or so blade. Looking at many options right now. After much reading and reflecting (including how I train with my kubotan), I would add a Disciple in a heartbeat if they were more available and I had the cash, but they ain't and I don't

The clinch pick is going to be rereleased in Sandvik 13c27 (or 26) made in China for a sub-$100 price, $150 packaged with a trainer, both with tek-loks.

Southnarc announced this recently.

He also licensed Ban Tang to make custom clinch picks, which I'd like to happily claim some small part in for showing SN a BT knife. They're exquisite.

I'm not hatin' on the Disciple but there's a reason the CP is being re-made and is in higher demand. It's just the smallest viable defensive knife system IMO. Like we discussed the size of a knife (namely the blade depth in sheath) determines the draw length, therefore there's a glass ceiling on "usefulness" that IMO is about 3.5" for a realistic defensive knife.

If you can't move your elbow greater than the length of the blade your knife's staying in its sheath.

Ban Pikal knife and original Clinch Pick (not the Chi-pick or Ban version) shown below. Not my pic,. I believe the far left knife is a "Bloodshark"

IMAG0998.jpg
 
Well, yes, that ^ makes a lot of sense.

So, question: CP is RGEO, right?

The reason I'm loving the D is it's RGEI.

I'd like a CP that's RGEI.
_____

Added by edit after some reflection.

But for that price with a trainer,
I'll buy one regardless.
 
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Thanks, HSO. Following the other thread lead me to looking into the Clinch Pick and the Kabar TDI in more detail (and actually, just found this thread for the first time yesterday, using the search feature for the clinch pick). I was able to go out and handle the TDI pretty extensively the other day. Guy behind the counter let me put it on my belt (weak side) and randomly draw it a few dozen times throughout a 20-minute or so conversation, and I walked away without it, but extremely impressed and absolutely re-evaluating my recent thoughts on a new knife for the defense role.

The question that comes to mind for me, is which type of attack more quickly ends a threat? A stab, or a slash? And which parts of the body are the best targets for a blade?

If this isn't somewhere you want this thread to go, feel free to moderate, HSO. Thanks again.
 
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Excellent. You're right: this discussion fits much better here than in the Switchblade thread.

Busy day, but asap, I have some questions to add about RGEO and RGEI, etc, and a thought or two.
 
We should look at the great, good, bad and awful in this category as well.

I bear a scar from a RKK Snitch that just through luck didn't sever the tendons in my left elbow (stupid accident) so there are a wide range of little knives that can serve in a defensive role. Some just happen to be more focused in their design for that use.
 
My apologies to John and Nem and others in the "Faster Than A Switchblade" thread. I somehow failed to move your posts on small defensive fixed blades over to this thread and they have been lost.

John had pointed out the work he and Sam were doing on this type of knife and that they hoped to have something out when John gets back from serving in Afghanistan.

A mention of the Disciple was made.

Sorry for the fat fingered fumbling of the transfer of posts.


***

Ok, I think I restored the posts thanks to Nem!
 
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Accidents happen, HSO. I suspect you're forgiven by those whose posts were lost.

What are the advantages and disadvantages of a knife with the cutting edge on top (I have no clue what its actually called), like on the Clinch Pick? Or, if this makes more sense, the advantages of the Clinch Pick, vs the advantages of the Kabar TDI? Like I said, I was very impressed with the TDI, and obviously didn't get to handle the Clinch Pick. But it seems like it comes down to which types of attacks (stabs vs slashes) are more effective in stopped an attack, and on which areas of the body.
 
BK-BO280.jpg

- image from http://www.knivesplus.com/bokerknifebk-bo280.html

This is a Boker production version of David Mosier's Trigonaut custom (http://dmknives.com/) that seems to have some promise. The grip design does not lend itself to a reverse grip - it's designed to support a saber grip - but the blade design seems workable.

ETA - current sheath is molded and will likely need replacement with a more useful kydex design.
 
Fred, that's a sweet looking little blade!

I've added it to my list of those to consider, even though lack of a reverse grip option puts it low on the list.

My Manix 2 has caused me to become a fan of Wharncliffe blades.
 
The question that comes to mind for me, is which type of attack more quickly ends a threat? A stab, or a slash? And which parts of the body are the best targets for a blade?

If this isn't somewhere you want this thread to go, feel free to moderate, HSO. Thanks again.

This is a topic that trainer Michael Janich goes into some detail about in both his seminars and his videos. I admit to having fully drunk his koolaid on that one; I'm a "structural" guy all the way, since all I want is to either get away, or make the attack stop. (this means that I am not much for stabbing, aside from getting through the first layer of clothes for a comma cut).

I'm curious to hear from those that have studied with Douglas, or studied pikal (I am ignorant regarding this POI, myself). By what specific mechanism does this design cause an attacker to "back off"? Pain? Fear? Exsanguination? Mobility loss? Structural collapse? I love the speed and surprise aspect of this little blade, but I am interested in hearing ideas about its use once deployed.
 
The ronin is awesome in conventional grip...but are you carrying it for Forward Grip Edge Up? It could work but seems awkward.
Sorry it took me so long to see this. A Ronin is workable for me in any grip orientation, even FGEI, but yes, it is best FGEO, as designed by Michael Janich. When I obtained real Clinch Picks and Disciples, I stopped carrying Ronins positioned for edge-in deployment. I should note that my palms are medium-large size, but my pinkies, ring fingers, and thumbs are relatively quite short, so what fits me may not work so well for most guys.
 
Well, yes, that ^ makes a lot of sense.

So, question: CP is RGEO, right?

The reason I'm loving the D is it's RGEI.

I'd like a CP that's RGEI.
_____

Added by edit after some reflection.

But for that price with a trainer,
I'll buy one regardless.
The CP is designed for Forward Grip, Edge-IN, as the primary grip, though it can be used RGEI. It would be very awkward to use the CP edge-out, due to the grip design.

FWIW, I like the Disciple in FGEI, too, though it is not as feasible to wear a Disciple in the front of the belt, positioned for a downward draw. Not only is comfort a factor, but the drawstroke is longer, which can be problematic in some physical positions that may occur during a fight.
 
This is a topic that trainer Michael Janich goes into some detail about in both his seminars and his videos. I admit to having fully drunk his koolaid on that one; I'm a "structural" guy all the way, since all I want is to either get away, or make the attack stop. (this means that I am not much for stabbing, aside from getting through the first layer of clothes for a comma cut).

I'm curious to hear from those that have studied with Douglas, or studied pikal (I am ignorant regarding this POI, myself). By what specific mechanism does this design cause an attacker to "back off"? Pain? Fear? Exsanguination? Mobility loss? Structural collapse? I love the speed and surprise aspect of this little blade, but I am interested in hearing ideas about its use once deployed.

The CP is not really a "back-off" blade, as I see it. It is designed to be used in a very point-driven
manner. The way a CP is worn, is for deployment in a very specific manner. I reckon a CP could be
used before finding one's self in a clinch, but really, other weapons are better for fighting at longer range; the CP is small for reasons other than concealability. The CP can be deployed and wielded when one has very little room in which to move.

To be clear, my actual blade training time with SouthNarc is very, very minimal. When I saw him demo the CP and Disciple at the Blade Show, however, it was a eureka moment for me; I knew this was simple, brutal, effective stuff, for the occasion in which reaching and
drawing a handgun or other larger edged weapon would be problematic. Indeed, SN's scenario was being seated inside a van or restaurant booth, with bad guys seated on either side AND facing! Think
of an undercover agent being surrounded by dope dealers, and suddenly the negotiation is found to be a rip-off robbery or assasination, with little to no room to extend one's elbows...

To be clear, I do not think of the CP philosophy to be in conflict with that being taught by others!
 
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The CP is not really a "back-off" blade, as I see it. It is designed to be used in a very point-driven
manner. The way a CP is worn, is for deployment in a very specific manner. I reckon a CP could be
used before finding one's self in a clinch, but really, other weapons are better for fighting at longer range; the CP is small for reasons other than concealability. The CP can be deployed and wielded when one has very little room in which to move.

Thanks for the thoughts, Rexster, I appreciate it. I certainly get the reasoning behind the size and carry; there are numerous videos and reviews out there pointing out that the blade can be rapidly deployed even under extreme mobility constraints (ie. the hemmed-in Narc in your scenario; a perfect tool for that specialized situation).

It is probably worth mentioning out loud that I have already acquired the *utmost* respect for Douglas by proxy; too many folks that I've come to trust here speak very highly of his instruction. For that matter, Janich specifically praised Douglas by name more than once in the seminar I took with him, so I am very aware that SN is no dunce with a blade (or anything else combative), if I may paraphase one of my favorite swashbuckling flicks. He's absolutely, for sure on my short list to seek out for training.

That said, the general guy-with-a-knife youtubes around the CP seem to start and end with the grip, yank and shank philosophy, with not much address of what happens when the blade is actually in play. As well, the handful of online instructional excerpts on the subject from the man himself–while demonstrating superb tactics, mechanics, body positioning, and teaching skill–appear to tend towards working the guy over with the point, which is not high on my own list of activities. I'm not well equipped to go one-on-one in tight quarters with anyone serious while waiting for a pressure drop or psychological stop–which I think we all agree could possibly take an eternity when the opposition is committed to messing you up. (This concern goes to the heart of Bobson’s question about what type of knife counter-attack ends the threat quicker: I’m of the mind that stabbing is more lethal, but cutting away an attacker’s ability to use their weapon/hurt you/reach you is the faster way to safety).

Several heavies here dig this blade though, so I really am asking simply because I'm no expert, and I don't yet get the point (no pun intended). I’m willing to learn though.

I hope that makes sense.
 
This seems like an extremely important discussion, and I'm glad it's happening.

I have similar questions to those that are being asked.

Reading with interests.

Nem
 
That said, the general guy-with-a-knife youtubes around the CP seem to start and end with the grip, yank and shank philosophy, with not much address of what happens when the blade is actually in play. As well, the handful of online instructional excerpts on the subject from the man himself–while demonstrating superb tactics, mechanics, body positioning, and teaching skill–appear to tend towards working the guy over with the point, which is not high on my own list of activities. I'm not well equipped to go one-on-one in tight quarters with anyone serious while waiting for a pressure drop or psychological stop–which I think we all agree could possibly take an eternity when the opposition is committed to messing you up.

I agree with the last sentence, so don't end up there!

If you do, plain and simple, you don't know what will stop... psychological stop is likely, true structural stop in my view isn't. Some combination, maybe.

If the above two fail and I needed a knife to use, I want it to have dealt out the MOST damage possible so I can fight until the other guy isn't.

One thing is, Craig doesn't teach the CP as a standalone, nor IMO should anyone teach the knife as a primary weapon. Meaning you have to know how to fight when a knife is in play, not just put a knife into play and hope to win the fight.

As for "what happens"... I believe it's a false dichotomy to have a GOAL of stopping a BG using solely one method or the other. The goal is stop the bad guy.

I have never seen or had Janich's material presented to me but I do feel it's subject to becoming ineffective under enough pressure, because to "get away" you need to create some kind of window, which involves aggressiveness. I'm not speaking for Craig or anyone else, by the way.

I want to incorporate aggressiveness into my fighting to create the window to get away... I don't want to try to back up AS I'm cutting as one instructor teaches, mainly because independently of any philosophical objection, I know from training it won't work.

To me this is a lot like the whole "learning to fight on the ground" debate. Lots of people say don't train that, you don't want to go to the ground...I like this quote:

The surest way to end up on the ground in a fight is to never train there. -Matt Thornton​

Similarly, I believe that you can't have a half-measure "less deadly" or "less aggressive" knife method and expect equal efficacy. In a knife based defensive strategy, especially if multiples are present, you need something that works as fast as possible through whatever mechanisms.

Greater aggressiveness = faster psychological stop
aggressiveness = more damage, whether "structurally" or otherwise - the FGEU/RGEI methods don't discriminate, and would cause plenty of structural damage as well as other types
More damage to multiple targets on body = more overall chance of stoppage - if structural doesn't work in a given fight, you have started the "timer" on the more slow and steady decrements

Aggressiveness is also a way of turning the tide in the fight. When you fight, fight. You don't "defend" in my opinion... defending means going more slowly, trying not to get hit, letting the other guy dictate the encounter.

A psych stop may be more likely to happen with massive damage, too. If you get a cut to the forearm then the biceps then the deltoid, that might be disconcerting, and would make many people stop. I believe grievous damage such as 10-15 stabs culminating in shear cuts would be more disconcerting.


In my experience if you have someone trying to hurt you (or simulating it very convincingly) you will generally end up turning the tide by doing the counterintuitive thing of moving into them or any direction but back while delivering multiple disruptive strikes/stabs or even shots. If you concede any initiative, space, or relent, the person committing the assault will continue it.

If you extrapolate this to multiple attackers I feel point driven makes much more sense than anything else, as well. It's faster, less leakage of efficiency and energy, and the knife stays in a defined path and so does your hand/elbow, preventing you from getting chicken winged or similar.
 
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