The Consolidated White Wing Gun Control Debate

[Frohickey]

WhiteWing said:
Btw... What do you guys think you can do about the surperior U.S military... For god's sake... Kevlar and preciseon bombs..

Hugo Chavez and Venezuela... imagine what he would have done if only the government had the guns? He couldn't have mowed down the protesters. If he did, he would have been the target of the family/friends of the protesters that died. They would have Hugo Chavez in their rifle sights. That is how guns in the hands of civilians stop government tyranny. Tied the hands of government enough that they could not use the force of arms against its own populace. Pretty nifty, eh?

As to small arms in the hands of US residents against the superior US Military. At the most, the US Military is composed of 1,436,455 active duty personel. This from a country of 290,342,554 people. How many of these 1.4million would desert or refuse to obey an order to fire/bomb on their fellow countrymen? Lets say 10%, or 29 million Americans refused to obey a tyrant that suspends elections and dissolves Congress, how many fellow Americans will these 1.4million US servicemen will have to slaughter to quell the popular uprising?

There are at last estimation, nearly 200 million guns in the hands of private citizens in America. Lets say that only 10% of these are in good working order, and half of that, suitable for use against an occupying Army, thats still 10 million guns. 10 million guns is a lot, but not everyone that owns that will have the will and resolve to use it in a revolution, so, say its down to 1%, or 100K. But remember, us Americans like to think BIG. Most of these 100K guns will be aimed at the tyrant. Pretty sobering thought for a tyrant to have 100K gun aimed at you, at one point or another. Kinda makes the tyrant feel impotent, no?

 

[Frohickey]

WhiteWing said:
What is the third choice then? Bulletcontrol, or spomething else?

Bullet control...

Hmm... with a $1000 hobby milling machine, a talented hobbyist can make a set of molds to cast bullets. These milling machines are in use by industry and hobbyists.
Add to this a small cast iron pot, a spoon, and a stove, found in almost every single household or restaurant, and you can make bullets pretty cheaply.

Add to this blackpowder recipes that even your self-respecting 18th century chemist can make, or smokeless powder and primers that can be purchased at reputable gun stores.

Add to this muzzle loading rifles or pistols, or reloading dies, cartridge cases you can find in most outdoor gun ranges, just laying on the ground.

Hmm... maybe I should go into business. $5K a round. I'd be making a cool mint with the equipment I already have, and countless others have here already.

The genie is already out of the bottle. Pandora's box is already open. The toothpaste is already out of the tube.

 

[Doug S]

Looking over this thread, it does not appear that a debate every really took place. No offense to White Wing, but his few comments are just that, comments based on his distaste (or unfamiliarity) with private firearms ownership. Unless I missed it, these comments are not supported by a single valid reason (or even a reasonable supposition) explaining how the disarmament of law abiding citizens would make our world a safer, happier place to live. In contrast many THE posts provided thought provoking arguments relating to how the repeal of our 2nd Amendment rights could actually lead to an increase of violent crime. If there is one thing I'm sure of in this discussion, it is that weakness or the appearance of weakness (i.e., no means of defense) promotes savagery. We do not, never have & we never will live in a Utopian society. History speaks for itself on this matter, & we would do well to remember the old saying that "Those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it." Our little experiment of the last 220 some odd years stands alone in demonstrating what a free man & woman can achieve, and unfortunately the word "free" really has no meaning if one does not have the ability/means to preserve & guard the right of the individual. As far as I'm concerned the only real "right" that we as Americans have is the "right" to bear arms. For without this single freedom, no other could really exist. If we as individuals & as countrymen are without the resolve and without the means of preserving our way of life then our society will ultimately go the way of every other great "Empire" that has ever existed, to ashes. Where happened to the Romans, Spartans, Athenians, the Sioux, Cherokee, Aztec, Maya, Inca. What became of the Hun, the Viking, Saxons to name but a few. Anyway, I can get a little long winded so I'll close my rant here.

 

[Art Eatman]

Pat me on the back, but I just read through the whole six pages.

It seems to me that White Wing makes the mistake of equating the voicing of an opinion with "debate". Nope.

Reading through all this, I'd have to say the vast majority of the responses from THR people give reasons for the opinions. This is generally absent in White Wing's posts.

On balance, Gertrude Stein's comment still holds: "There's no there, there."

It makes me somewhat curious, then, to see if White Wing ever does actually offer some line of rationale to support his opinions.

, Art

 

[Leatherneck]

So who was it that invited WW to THR anyway?

He mentioned Preacherman in one post. But I think Preach has a better class of friends.

TC
TFL Survivor

 

[Bostonterrier97]

[quoate]
But what do you suppose can be done? What Rock points out is that the only means of getting the murder rates down, is by making it harder to kill... You say by keeping guns; I say by casting them aside...

What is the third choice then? Bulletcontrol, or spomething else?
[/quote]


How about summary execution of criminals when caught in the act?

Too barbaric? Consider this peice of history of Montana:

In 1862, prospectors found gold in Grasshopper Creek in southwestern Montana. Other gold strikes followed, and wild mining camps grew around the gold fields. These included Bannack, Diamond City, Virginia City, and others.


The mining camps had almost no effective law enforcement. Finally, the citizens took the law into their own hands. One famous incident involved the two biggest gold camps--Bannack and Virginia City. The settlers learned that their sheriff, Henry Plummer, was actually an outlaw leader. The men of Bannack and Virginia City formed a vigilance committee to rid themselves of the outlaws. These vigilantes hanged 21 men, including Plummer, in January 1864. The vigilantes adopted as their symbol the numbers 3-7-77. These numbers may have referred to dimensions of a grave--3 feet wide, 7 feet deep, and 77 inches long. Or the symbol may have associated with masonic ritual because many of the vigilantes were members of the Masons, a fraternal organization. Many outlaws were hanged or driven from Montana.

Consider the history of California's Vigilence Committees
http://www.militarymuseum.org/HistorySFVigilante.html

There are more good people than bad people in the world. By ensuring that good people have access to weapons and the ability to swiftly administer justice to criminals results in a safer world.

Most gun control laws were enacted within cities, once enacted crime flourished.

 

[BHPshooter]

Looking over this thread, it does not appear that a debate every really took place.

It didn't. You've got it right, WW told us his opinions and some very uninformed, very naive views of "how it should be." I actually wish he would debate, so that these 6 pages aren't just for naught.

Wes

 

[Doug S]

Wes, I have to agree. I was looking forward to a polite debate, but was waiting to see what direction it might take. Unfortunately it seemed to fizzle before it ever got started. Nevertheless THR members put forth some very good, common sense views. It just goes to show that being informed is really the best means of defense & of gaining support in the gun control debate.

 

[Baba Louie]

HSMITH,

Looks like you nailed WW right out of the chute old buddy. Maybe a little too much heat initially (there are ways to display proper scathing irony tactfully... look at some of Olegs posters again) but you appeared to be closest to the money at the getgo boyo.

Kudo's (even if it's on your permanent record with the mods) on that call sir.

White wing, One must exercise great caution when chumming for sharks in shark infested water as the sharks seem to know what they know and do what they do quite well. Please come back and play, er, debate.

Adios

 

[Orthonym]

Now that it's over, I'd like to add something.

What about Knife Control, or, why do Chinamen eat with chopsticks ? The story I read had it that when Genghiz Khan conquered China he had his JBTs go to every little village and confiscate all actual or potential weapons, down to kitchen knives. (Remind anyone of the TSA?) I think each village was allowed one central food-prep area, with ONE knife for the whole village. The peasants had to take their vittles to the official food-chopping facility to be cut into bite-sized pieces, whereupon they could take them home, cook them, and eat them with STICKS!

Oh, WhiteWing, this is not (exactly) ad hominem, but you're from NORWAY, for deity's sake. My ancestors used to huddle in churches praying for the Lord to deliver them from yours! Ever hear of the Danegeld? Scandinavians used to be the terror of the world with their killing, pillage and rape, specializing in going after goody-goody, mild-mannered Christians! I'm glad you and yours have gotten the Word recently, but may I suggest that you've thrown the baby out with the bathwater?

 

[Silver Bullet]

We might never know whether it was the holy cross or the light of reason that drove him back to the fantasy world from where he came.

 

[HSMITH]

Baba Louie, I call it like I see it and some people think I am rude because of that. Generally that is those who don't know me or are chronically thin skinned, and this format makes it hard to read "tone" in a reply further complicating matters. WW was fishing for an arguement and got it. The moderators support someone fishing for an arguement as long as they are civil about it and made that very clear. I did not mean to slam WW, but I do feel that his point of view is beyond ignorant. I gave the explanation for that sentiment later rather than when it would have been most appropriate, in my original post. My mistake. I am not positive but I do think I got a "strike" on my record. It is what it is, and at end of the day I just want people to know where they stand with me. I expect the same from them so we always know what to expect from one another.

One thing that I do know about human nature is that people don't change without a catalyst, and the chances of that catalyst being a 'debate' with someone from an opposing viewpoint are lower than your odds of winning the lottery. Personal discoveries and traumatic events are the sure ways to change a person.

I dearly love a good debate but I also fully recognize that the only gain from it is the "sport" of it.

Life goes on and hopefully we can take something from each day that will help us tomorrow......

 

[pax]

One thing that I do know about human nature is that people don't change without a catalyst, and the chances of that catalyst being a 'debate' with someone from an opposing viewpoint are lower than your odds of winning the lottery. Personal discoveries and traumatic events are the sure ways to change a person.

HSmith,

No, of course an internet debate is not going to change either one of the debaters' minds. People who are arguing simply never admit when they know they've been bested, even if they are able to see it which they usually can't.

People debate because it feels good to debate. However, debates such as these really aren't simply for the pleasure of the debaters.

They're good for the folks listening. Chances are, while this thread is active, at least one person will come surfing by, checking out firearms sites, because he or she had already had the catalytic experience and was looking for information, or for confirmation, or because they need support for their newly emerging shift in worldview.

Hopefully, when that person, primed and ready to shift paradigms, comes onto our RKBA site, the active threads will be interesting and appealing. If the threads instead are full of vitriolic attacks, the person will look elsewhere for support -- or the newly hatched shift in worldview will not last long.

That's why THR welcomes threads like these, and why it is so important that the discussion remains friendly and not insulting. We want to put our best foot forward, to welcome the newest of our possible allies to the RKBA.

Hope that makes sense.

pax

When you're finished changing, you're finished. -- Benjamin Franklin

 

[HSMITH]

pax, that makes perfect sense. Thanks for taking the time to type that out.

There are others that think a debate will spark change, that point will or will not be proven soon enough.

 

[mormonsniper]

It's a good thing to see this thread...

I'd like it seen in other forums as well, like DU for instance. bostonterrier's tragic story puts a very personal perspective on self defense. How terrible.

Not on my watch if I can help it.

 

[OF]

Not on my watch if I can help it.

Amen to that.

- Gabe

 

[MicroBalrog]

My views that used to be radical left have been challenged by those of your stand

You think one can't be a pro-gun liberal? Read my sig!

 

[Doug S]

"Hopefully, when that person, primed and ready to shift paradigms, comes onto our RKBA site, the active threads will be interesting and appealing. If the threads instead are full of vitriolic attacks, the person will look elsewhere for support -- or the newly hatched shift in worldview will not last long."


Pax, Is it possible that you have a background in anthropology? Just wondered as you post mentions paradigms & worldviews. Good anthropological thinking nonetheless.

 

[adobewalls]

Just wanted to add that I think WW did come for the wrong reasons, but who knows - maybe as he matures and meditates on the sanctity of life (as one tends to do when one ages) the seed planted here will sprout and he will have his epiphany.

If not, well it was a good rhetorical exercise for THR members and his loss.

Take care

 

[pax]

Doug,

Nope, not at all. I just like big words.

pax

With a knowledge of the name comes a distincter recognition and knowledge of the thing. -- Henry David Thoreau

 

[Doug S]

Hi Pax, just wondered . I teach anthropology, & some of the terms you used in your post caught my attention (terms I often refer to in class). Thanks for the response.

Doug

 

[Abominable No-Man]

Well, let's debate then, White Wing.

I think I am following what you refer to when you say institutionalized system of self defense. I believe what he is referring to, though, isn't an institution per se, but a cultural difference.
Look at it like this: how many of us grew up on the Lone Ranger, the A-Team, etc. How many of us grew up hunting? How many of us had guns in the house growing up? No, not ALL of us, but I'd be willing to lay modest money that 90+ percent did. Fact: guns are a part of our American heritage.

Now as far as self-defense......I'm going to need a bit of clarification on something here. Is this due to a belief in pacifism? The reference to Jesus is what brings that to mind. If that is the case, I would like to point out that while the "Turn the other cheek" quote from Christ is what a lot of anti's like to dribble out, Christ also stated "I have not come to bring peace, but a sword" and "if any man has not got a sword, let him sell his cloak and buy one" (sorry, don't have my Bible in front of me, and i can't promise the wording is exactly right or give you chapter and verses right now...).

All right then, let's examine something else. You have also stated that you
"dig shooting guns", that you "like a rifle and shooting practice", so I'm a bit at a loss as to why you condemn gun ownership out of hand and then state that you like to shoot. Be that as it may, you also pointed out that you see the value in a militia, but not (if I'm reading this right) as a means to oust a repressive government. Please clarify this for me (if you stop back in to read this that is: I know you blew out of here someplace on page 4.....), but are the government hired/elected by the people or the other way around?

TO THE REST OF THR:

My guess is that White Wing's command of english is somewhat faulty, and he wasn't quite able to express what he was for and against initially. Hopefully he left here wiser and with a better understanding of things.

ANM

 

[toro]

Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could change the minds of all people who want to debate about the gun issue.

When the government fears it's citizens you have democracy. When the citizens fear the government, you have tyranny. After Waco, Ruby Ridge, and Travelgate, Americans fear the government, and justly so. Americans, should look to history as their warning. Nazi Germany led to unspeakable horrors across Europe. It happened once; it can happen again!

America's new atheistic, secular state is not unprecedented. It was performed with percision by the Soviet Communists and led to an amoral, unproductive, cynical, and atheistic population that destroyed its own economy and is only now having to learn how to think and live freely. Even so, against all logic, America's leaders try to force upon us a system of government that has repeatedly failed in Europe and Russia,Why? There is no logical answer.

Remember, this is not about logic. Logical people do not reject a political system that has given them freedom and prosperity. American is in a crisis. This is a battle for America's soul, and while you may not be around to experience it at its climactic worst, your children and grandchildren will be there. America's future hangs in the balance in these latter days.


Mrs. Toro


____________________________________________
11 John 1:7
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

 

[NonServiam]

Sigh. I'm sorry to see you've gotten a bad lot of Norwegians here lately. Just thought I'd remind you that Kobun, M67 and others (including me) are still here. I just haven't been posting in a _really_ long time. Thanks to you White Wing, I'm gonna go home and cuddle my guns right now. I'm gonna take particularily care in petting my Colt New Service .455. My uncle carried that during WWII, when he was in the Norwegian resistance ...

Sorry, guys. We usually try to keep the standard of resident Norwegians a tad bit higher.

 

[sig220mw]

Hey white wing you say we could or should change our attitude toward guns and not use them for self defense but instead learn to lay them down and then dispose of them. What about those of us that really love to take them out to the range or in to the field and use them. They are, after all not just for self defense. I will never change my mind about shooting, I love doing it.
As far as criminals not using them during a crime if they can't be legally owned. That's just a pipe dream, criminals are criminals because they ignore laws and will kill you with whatever is available. Finally the 2nd amendment was written into the constitution by the founding fathers to protect a right that they believed already existed.....they didn't grant it to us they only sought to protect it.
I guess the only other thing I might add is that some people just don't understand why we like our guns.....the answer is we just do and we don't understand why others don't but we don't go around trying to convince them to change their minds about it or try to use crooked, behind the back schemes to make them come over to our side. We don't demonize people that don't own guns, we leave them alone. We however are constantly demonized and belittled by a national press that literally hates us for no good reason. Crimes are comitted by a very small segment of the population. If all the gun owners were criminals we would be tripping over bodies every where and our homes would be boarded up and look like fortresses.