The fallacy that people in Aurora counldn't fight/shoot back.

[ccsniper]

I think the main thing we need to take away from this is to avoid sardine cans like movie theaters, malls, or other large crowd events. It is sad that we have avoid areas because some crazy may show up with a gun and start trying to kill people, but my safety and that of my family is more important than watching some overpriced, over-hyped, movie that will come out on blu-ray in a couple of months. I have never liked going anywhere there are lots of people crowded in a small area, just too much of a bulls eye in my opinion.

 

[Skribs]

I think the main thing we need to take away from this is to avoid sardine cans like movie theaters, malls, or other large crowd events. It is sad that we have avoid areas because some crazy may show up with a gun and start trying to kill people, but my safety and that of my family is more important than watching some overpriced, over-hyped, movie that will come out on blu-ray in a couple of months. I have never liked going anywhere there are lots of people crowded in a small area, just too much of a bulls eye in my opinion.

If we live in fear, the terrorists win.

 

[basicblur]

Depicting every gun owner without "high speed training" as some kind of fudd falls into the elitist notion propagated by the antis.

I'm reminded of the show Top Shot (I finally couldn't take it any longer) - the only thing that kept me watching the last two seasons I did was the old country boys going up against folks with a long resume. Turns out, the country boys ended up winning both seasons.

Imagine that - enthusiasts / folks that grew up around guns beating a number of high speed / low drag folks...whouda thunk?

Mebbe I'm hanging around the wrong places, but it seems to me that many folks who simply state they would have tried something had they found themselves in the situation are being painted as wannabes heroes, etc.

Maybe I could have stopped him had I been in the theater, maybe I couldn't.
I probably wouldn't take a shot across a darkened room of pannicked patrons (if it was as chaotic as some are painting it to be), but if he closed ranks on me and it looked like I was the next target, what have I got to lose by at least trying something?

 

[Frank Ettin]

...I find your appropriate training caveat to be interesting since the attacker probably hadn't fired more than a few boxes at best....

How do you know that? Even if true, so what? In the particular situation the Aurora theater gunman started he had a substantial tactical advantage, and he was well ahead of the curve. Both things can help make up for a lack of training and skill.

And what makes it tough for anyone who might have wanted to do something about the situation was that he would have been well behind the curve and at a significant tactical disadvantage. Sometimes training and skill, together with courage, can help make up for that. But courage alone is much less likely to effectively do so.

...Depicting every gun owner without "high speed training" as some kind of fudd falls into the elitist notion propagated by the antis....

It is what it is. You can only do what you are capable of doing. Training increases your skills and abilities.

It's true there are prodigies who can develop great skill and ability on their own. But they are rare. You might be able to teach yourself to play the piano well enough to provide some accompaniment at a singalong at your buddies summer barbecue; but if you expect solo at Carnegie Hall, you'll need both talent and training.

...the last two seasons I did was the old country boys going up against folks with a long resume. Turns out, the country boys ended up winning both seasons.

Imagine that - enthusiasts / folks that grew up around guns beating a number of high speed / low drag folks...whouda thunk?...

Which only means that whatever skills the "old country boys" were able to hone through whatever they did to train informally, together with whatever natural talent they had, were sufficient to prevail in the particular tests involved. If the tests were different the results could be different as well.

Bubba Watson won the Masters this year. That won't make him a top seed for Wimbledon.

 

[basicblur]

If the tests were different the results could be different as well.

"Could" being the operative word.

At least they didn't just give up (which some seem to think should be done).
By golly, those old country boys could have whined 'bout how they didn't have a piece of paper on a wall stating they're trained and certified to be strapped into a spinning wheel while trying to hit targets....they just went and did it.

I think a lot of folks that seem to think a CCWer wouldn't / couldn't have made a difference may be projecting a bit.

'Course, some of 'em just like arguing...

 

[Bobson]

I think a lot of folks that seem to think a CCWer wouldn't / couldn't have made a difference may be projecting a bit.

I agree with you, sir. Even with 1,000,000 to 1 odds that a CCW'er wouldn't have helped end the situation earlier, its asinine to behave as though that single shred of hope wouldn't matter. 0.01% is infinitely better than 0.00% when innocent lives are on the line.

 

[The Man With No Name]

I just can't stomach some of this thread any longer. I'll make my last points and leave.
1. No one with a rational mind would want to face a situation like this.
2. Some would choose to fight for sure, some would choose to run, some would choose to try and save others without engaging the shooter. No wrong answer. Each man and woman has to live with their own conscience at the end of the day.
3. Some think nothing could be done to stop, slow down, or even draw the attention of the shooter away from others and that in the end the number of victims would have been the same even if their had been one legally armed CCW permit holder present. Same if their had been many legally armed citizens. I disagree. I also see that some of you will not be convinced otherwise. So be it. As an leo I would have taken a chance if possible and risked my life to save others. I know plenty of citizens that aren't leo's that would have done the same. Would we have made it worse? I doubt it. Some that talk of hypothetical situations just go ahead. Your conjecture that armed citizens would have made it worse is just as hypothetical to the point of being ridiculous in my mind. All we know is that some heroes were in that theatre and did risk their lives to try and help others during an active shooter situation. Bless them. They didn't make it worse by any account. If doing nothing is the new mantra of the responsible citizen then consider me an old time relic and against the norm.
4. Some would STILL take issue with me calling him a drugged up coward. Once again he admitted to taking drugs before the incident. Once again I consider it a cowards act to open fire on what you expect to be an unarmed crowd. Tactics of the military, swat, ect. have nothing to do with this. Trying to glorify, justify, or minimize this murderers actions won't work on me. I am not projecting. Psychobabble doesn't work for this incident.
5. Finally studies showing that the police do nothing to stop incidents like this other than show up afterwards with a show of force? Excuse me? Show the studies. Go ahead. Most incidents like this that are stopped beforehand don't make the national and international news because it isn't as good a story for the ghoul media. But just in case some haven't been paying attention (which is painfully obvious) police have already stopped one copycat. I guess that doesn't work well with some arguments and thus the reason it hasn't been brought up even once that I've seen in this thread.

Have a nice day.

 

[goon]

You raise some good points. I think if an off duty cop had been there, he would have tried to stop it. I think that if a SWAT team had been standing outside the door, they also would have tried to stop it.
Unfortunately, no armed people (private citizens or LEO) were present and no one did try to stop it.
I don't think cops do a terrible job in most cases - but they can't be everywhere all the time and that's just how it is.

 

[jon_in_wv]

A far better plan would have been to shoot him in his sleep the night before. The problem is, of course, that it's totally impossible to implement that plan because we can't time travel.

Apparently this thread has run its course.

 

[Robert]

This one is going in circles...