The Game Design Industry and Firearms

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1) How do you see the game design industry depictions/uses of firearms in games?

2) How visually accuracy are firearms used in games? (Please do not refer to sci-fi guns as they are doubtfully intended to resemble a realistic firearm.)

3) What would you say the most glaring problem in regards to firearms are in games?

4) What would you like to see implemented in the future of games in regards to firearms and the culture surrounding them?

5) Anything else that comes to mind. I’d love to hear it.
I will say, the accuracy of firearms in video games is going up.
I am not a game designer, but I am a designer, and I do like games.
As such, I often design them or examine the design that went into them.
In the days of Doom, which admittedly is sci-fi, guns were wildly inaccurate.
Today, much effort goes into getting the details just right (one such example is that of EA using the actual report recordings of the firearm in their Call of Duty series.
However, more is yet to be done.
The image of shotguns, for instance, have suffered from the game industry, both from efforts to make the weapon "balanced" and from technical inability.
In an effort to balance games, many makers shorten the range of the shotgun to ridiculous levels. This is understandable, as most multiplayer maps are very small areas, which means that the shottie would dominate if its power was not curbed some.
COD and a couple other games have remedied this largely by making the maps bigger. I find that larger, more complex maps (as opposed to just a big open box) make the game more interesting anyway, so that is something to continue.
Sadly, game makers have, as of yet, found no way to allow the player to access the full scope of the shotgun's capabilities.
There is more to that weapon than just buckshot. Some way to load the rounds you want would be appreciated.
The shotgun aside, the most depressing issue in games is when they try and create their own weapon systems.
They often get them flat wrong (though the accusations against the Halo 1 and 3 Assault Rifle's 5-inch L(ength) O(f) P(ull) are absurd; the accusers forget that the rifle was designed with heavy body armor in mind. So to that I say "good on ya!"). A good example of one of the great "misses" of the game industry was Half-Life 2's Assault Rifle. This rifle, designed by an advanced alien race, performs no better than a STEN, in both power and range (I estimate range to be even worse). In addition, the correct levels of power and range would not have made the AR a "wunderwaffen" in the game, by any means (though the HL design team's decision to include a 1 hit kill dark energy ball certainly did...).
In my opinion, every game has its low points, even the best ones.
In addition, games like Unreal Tournament 3, that don't even strive for realism at all, are fine doing whatever.
 
My biggest gripe with any gun game: You rush me with a knife from 10 feet. I put 3 rounds of .45 ACP center mass before dying instantly from a wild knife swing. You rush on to stab someone else. Huh?

I understand the need for reduced damage. Sitting out a 10 minute round because you got shot once sucks as a gameplay model, I get it. BUT, if I can't kill you with 1 bullet, your puny knife should NOT kill me with one swipe.
 
My biggest gripe with any gun game: You rush me with a knife from 10 feet. I put 3 rounds of .45 ACP center mass before dying instantly from a wild knife swing. You rush on to stab someone else. Huh?

I understand the need for reduced damage. Sitting out a 10 minute round because you got shot once sucks as a gameplay model, I get it. BUT, if I can't kill you with 1 bullet, your puny knife should NOT kill me with one swipe.
That would be because you've been playing too much COD4...
Halo doesn't have knives. :neener:
Just kidding.
However, I think this statement is misguided:
BUT, if I can't kill you with 1 bullet, your puny knife should NOT kill me with one swipe.
Bullets sometimes don't work. But, then again, in the same instance, nothing short of cutting the person in half would.
The knife was a nice gameplay addition, though.
I understand the need for reduced damage.
I don't.
Either you play with realistic weaponry and make them all realistic, then find other ways to balance the game (WHY, WHY CAN'T YOU MAKE CARRYING AN M60 A STUPID IDEA!?!?!), or you don't even try at all, and follow the route of Unreal.
 
the only game series I ever truly enjoyed . . . . .

from the standpoint of the weaponry involved was the Mechwarrior games from Fasa. Aside from the weirded out zero G ballistics which gave no bullet drop even in heavy gravity environments the weaponry was amazingly well thought out. Complex rapid fire autocannons were prone to jams and there was a significant weight penalty for carrying lots of rounds. Your mission loadout was weight restricted just like real life and heavy caliber weapons were only able to carry a few rounds without sacrificing things like speed and armor. Hit boxes and damage assessments were way ahead of their time IMHO and the designers were able to keep it fresh without a major redesign of the game engine. Even if the story line wasn't quite your thing the nuts and bolts kept you interested and waiting for the next release. I played in an online league for several years and this game is still the standard by which I judge all first person shooters. Vintage stuff but worth a look - check it out.
 
1) How do you see the game design industry depictions/uses of firearms in games?
When they try to be realistic, they're a little too "tacticool." There seems to be a lot of HK love. In real life even a beat up full auto AK would be a hoot, but maybe that doesn't translate to a video game very well.
2) How visually accuracy are firearms used in games? (Please do not refer to sci-fi guns as they are doubtfully intended to resemble a realistic firearm.)
Pretty good, but I'm not picky.
3) What would you say the most glaring problem in regards to firearms are in games?
Inaccurate ballistics, unrealistic stopping power (too much or too little), indestructible cover, etc.

4) What would you like to see implemented in the future of games in regards to firearms and the culture surrounding them?
Fixing the stuff in #3. Customization like the cars in racing games. It would be super cool if it went down to small details like, 20 lpi vs. 25 lpi frontstrap, Ed Brown vs. Wilson parts, etc.
5) Anything else that comes to mind. I’d love to hear it.
I would like to see two, wildly different types of realistic gun games:
  1. SNIPER-A lifelike game where you try to hit targets at loooong range. 500 meters and up. Challenges would include mastering wind, caliber, different optics, etc. I think this would be fun even if the targets were inanimate (not necessarily immobile) objects.
    Others might prefer a tactical, military style, "elimate the bad guy" type game, but if it's not "sniper only" with realistic physics, it would just be like any other game.
  2. Action Shooting Sports Game-It would be cool to see an IPSC, USPSA, or even IDPA type game. I'm sure those associations would appreciate the exposure. Maybe you could even have deals with the gun manufacturers ("How do you want to customize your SVI, Shooter #1?").
    Bonus points if the players can design their own courses. It would be fun trying your buddies nightmare scenario course, or just practicing skills for real life.
 
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I know a lot of people are saying ballistics would be tough to do because of processing power, but does anybody remeber the Delta force games? They had drop and wind taken into account.

Another small detail i always liked was in the Americas army games where the muzzle would be pinted down if you turned to face a friendly. There are othe rgames too where the guns muzzle is tipped or moved up when you walk into a wall or object. AI always hated how you could have your face touching a wall in a game and still have a 4 foot rifle pointing straight out in front of you.
 
The depictions of firearms, in games where it's important, is getting better. On the other hand, even the "sci-fi" guns in Gears of War and Half-Life are shown a convincing amount of detail.

Things like recoil, bullet drop and relative ballistics are lacking, but that's to be expected. The vast majority of CPU cycles are tasked towards graphics, rather than AI or ancillary effects.

Unfortunately, graphics are still the main selling point of video games to the general public. Convincing enemy AI and realistic interaction are secondary concerns, and I see few examples to the contrary.

It doesn't bother me too much, as I see video games as escapism in any case. In movies, it bothers me, but some of the coolest ordnance I've ever seen in video games doesn't exist, and in some cases, never will. :)

As for depicting gun owners, I'm not sure. I'm not particularly happy with the "thug life" depictions in games like GTA and Saint's Row, but those are part of a larger cultural malady that, unfortunately, makes money.

While I'd certainly enjoy IDPA Nationals: Miculek's Revenge, I don't see EA giving it priority over Madden next year.

What can be improved are damage modifiers. A head-shot from a pistol should be critical, and damage from submachine guns should fall off at range, for example.

Limiting the amounts of ordnance and ammo that the player can carry might be realistic, but then again, it takes some of the fantasy element out of the game. It's a tough call.
 
1) How do you see the game design industry depictions/uses of firearms in games?

2) How visually accuracy are firearms used in games? (Please do not refer to sci-fi guns as they are doubtfully intended to resemble a realistic firearm.)

3) What would you say the most glaring problem in regards to firearms are in games?

4) What would you like to see implemented in the future of games in regards to firearms and the culture surrounding them?

5) Anything else that comes to mind. I’d love to hear it.

O ya. If you have any questions you would like to ask me, I'd be more than happy to answer them.

1- A mixed bag of realism and fiction. Some games are better than others.

2- If the artist making the weapon is knowledgeable and interested in firearms, then it will most likely be spot on depiction. There is the possibility of the artist being told to do such and such to make it "kool"

3- Yes! I want shotguns that can be effective at least to 50 yards... not 15 feet i.e. COD4, BF2, etc..

I work as an artist at a game studio.
 
SNIPER-A lifelike game where you try to hit targets at loooong range. 500 meters and up. Challenges would include mastering wind, caliber, different optics, etc. I think this would be fun even if the targets were inanimate (not necessarily immobile) objects.
Others might prefer a tactical, military style, "elimate the bad guy" type game, but if it's not "sniper only" with realistic physics, it would just be like any other game.

There was a sniper game out there. It was pretty realistic. But it was plauged with the same problem all realisitic games are: They're boring.
 
I did not read all the posts in this thread but I do have comments.

I am very active in Call of Duty: United Offensive. The group I play with is FKR. Yes the same group that did the FKR weapons mod. It is set up where firing from the hip is not accurate. When you pull the weapon up and use the sights the rounds are spot on! This, to me, is a very important thing. It forces the player to seek cover and actually aim to hit a target at a distance!

Accurate weapons are very important. I have not upgraded to any of the other COD games because I am waiting for the COD that is coming out in November. I'm sure we will mod that weapons package too.

Weapons that are on target when aimed are like real life. Weapons that never hit the target when aimed or weapons that hit when fired from the hip is not fun at all!

Thats the only comment I have and I hope I have not repeated what others have said. I play very often (daily) and if you want to PM me with a question feel free to do so. I have spent more time than I should playing FPS type games and may be able to let you know what dedicated players are really looking for.

Cheers
FuzzyBunny
 
The COD series does it the best, although there are a few flaws as others pointed out. My biggest complaint about COD4 is that you have firearms that fire the same round (i.e. M4 carbine vs. M16 vs. G36) and they all are rated at different damage levels. Another pet peeve of mine is that the game by design only allows you to have one add on to your weapon. Realistically, you could have a red dot, a grenade launcher, and a silencer on one weapon, but the game makes you choose just one.

I think COD has it nailed on the head with shooting while moving (i.e. being less accurate), being able to aim down the sights being more accurate but making you less mobile vs. shooting from the hip, and bullets passing through soft objects like walls.

I can't stand in games like Half Life 2 where you hit exactly what you're crosshair is pointing at. In fact, the handguns in that game are more accurate than the rifle in that game which is very unrealistic.
 
The COD series does it the best, although there are a few flaws as others pointed out. My biggest complaint about COD4 is that you have firearms that fire the same round (i.e. M4 carbine vs. M16 vs. G36) and they all are rated at different damage levels. Another pet peeve of mine is that the game by design only allows you to have one add on to your weapon. Realistically, you could have a red dot, a grenade launcher, and a silencer on one weapon, but the game makes you choose just one.

That bugs me too.

And the knife thing is from several games. COD4, CS, BF2, etc...
 
1. Fairly accurate.
2. Freakin awesome.
3. Like it or not, some weapons are more powerful than others. I don't want a .308 rifle to take the same number of hits to kill someone as does a .45 pistol. Ballistics, especially weapon-specific ballistics, are very important. Also, give shotguns longer ranges.
4. Pretty much good here.
5. I'd like to see a WWI game. I'd also like to see a late ninteenth century game, set in Africa or Asia, not the American West. Both FPS on the COD engine.

Great shooting games like Halo often have crappy driving engines. If you're going to have the player drive, he should be using a driving engine similar to NFS. If he needs to shoot, he can use on of the buttons on top of the controller for that.

I'd like to see more melee stuff, and not just smash n' bash.
 
My wish list for the perfect 1st person shooter would include:

1. Realistic damage relative to weapon fired (a .50 Barret will cause more damage than an AR, an AR more damage than a Beretta 9mm, etc)

2. Characters react according to where they are damaged (character shot in the leg will fall down, but can still return fire. Head/CNS shots result in immediate incapacitation)

3. Provide a variety of weapons (I hate when games utilize the same few weapons for all characters). Same goes for optics.

4. Realistic reloads. I hate games in which you perform multiple tactical reloads and magazines which should be partially loaded are magically topped off.

5. Use realistic gear. COD4 is a great game, but I doubt if real SAS operators and Marines are going to utilize $50 optics.

6. Utilize common sense with regard to amount of weight carried. When a character carries 2 heavy rifles, 12 mags each, explosives, handgun and various other gear, it makes the game much less realistic. Weight should be limited. Also, a character's movement should be relative to amount of weight carried.

7. Cover should be relative to rounds fired at you. Cars shouldn't blow up just because they are shot.
 
One "game" to consider is _JFK_Reloaded_, which went to great lengths to model both external ballistics (flight of bullet thru air) and internal ballistics (dynamics of bullet in body), among other unusually realistic factors. Google it and you'll find a free copy somewhere (the game company got so much flack for it they basically abandoned it to the wild).
 
I have to agree that except for a couple of minor exceptions STALKER nailed it. The exceptions off the top of my head are the left side ejection, bullet drop, and variable power for guns that guns the fire the same cartridge.

One thing that is missing from all these games to me is an actual M203 sight on a M16/M203. I can fire the real thing with a quadrant sight and nail a 55 gallon drum at any range that was marked, at least I could 12 years ago when I qualified expert with it twice. I'm worthless with the thing in every video game thus far.

As a game play consideration my favorite mission in any game is the left behind mission in Operation Flashpoint and I have not seen anything like it since. Your entire squad is dead and you have to make it to an extraction point through heavily enemy occupied territory. You have to do a mix of sneaking and selective firing to make it and the route is up to you. In that game I do love how you can pick up the gun from any dead enemy. On longer missions one of the first things I would do is ditch my M16 and pick up an AK just so I can resupply easier.
 
4) What would you like to see implemented in the future of games in regards to firearms and the culture surrounding them?

Realism.

Gas systems blocking, barrels glowing and actions seizing after excessive and sustained firing depending on the weapons reputation and environment.

crawling in swampy area = real bad idea for gun

shell casings to stay around permanently or at least a lot longer

charging handles manipulated manually i.e. with middle mouse button and released manually after reload.

Visual manipulation of fire select, semi auto, auto, burst - depending on the firearm.

left/right up/down accuracy to vary depending on the weapon's moa capabilities even if ballistics itself isn't included.

catching weapon on foliage = chance it could go off if safety isn't on.

dust debris etc to shake off of things and when large cal weapons are fired. For example high powered rifles disturb dust from walls, and cause dust to rise off the ground depending on the environment.

The list could go on and on. The hard part is to add realism without making the game a pain in the neck. The thing with having a gun in a game is the ability to manipulate it manually as in real life. That really gets the gun salivation going.
 
How about having to clear a malfunction?

STALKER does that, you have to reload to clear the jam. The condition of your weapons deteriorates as the game goes on so you have to replace them or risk more and more frequent jams. I guess nobody ever cleans a gun in a video game!
 
Guns and Games who'd a thunk it

:neener:

I love video games but some of my criticisms may be off because I swore off PC games (aside from Warcraft 3, Diablo etc) in favor of the box and the 360 recently. However I will say that many of the major issues have been addressed previously. Ignore the part about muzzle movement, IF I'm playing super soldier bad :what: I probably practice enough that it's a non issue.

for example
carrying of weapons. I love Halo's limits on volume of firepower but I hated that I could only carry 2 so when COD4 changed tactics to one pistol,smg, rifle I was stoked. Soon I realized though that was also frustrating. Give me the option of a side arm and any two LONG GUNS i.e. anything with a stock that I see fit. don't limit me on SMG vs. shotgun rifle.

As to the knife thing keep it, look up the tueller drill. An edged weapon is awesome (or a blunt smashing object) at close ranges is lethal! I especially liked Halo's close range charges but was sad to see it rarely mimiced in other games.

As to bullet drop maybe a little for insane sniper shots (see COD4 centerpiece sniper shot) but otherwise it's a non issue.

You've given us the ability to shoot through walls, AWESOME!
Now adjust power levels for the weapons we use.

My big grudge is more a story bit it bothers me in movies to:

When I'm a counter terrorist agent why the scared name of amun ra and I carrying a mac 10? Or I'm a terrorist in the middle east trying to kill jews and I've got an Uzi? WTH!?

Please oh please give us some realistic weapon assignment for what character I'm playing.

Oh and chase off the HK sales reps from the game studio's. They are clowns. Every game does not need to be PACKED with Hk's. Give us glock, cz, sig!

In COD4 I was dying for a 226 or a hi power in Lt Price's hands. Instead the brit was packing a 1911 (probably the super secret HK one we've heard myths about).

What do we want in games? How about a revolutionary war game. Muzzle loading challenge anyone? :D

I think the sighting systems etc of the new games is pretty well done, especially all the add ones with sights etc.

Let us know when your first one hits stores, I'll pick it up just to see how much you listend to us! :neener: Feel free to direct your buddies here with more questions should you choose, I'm sure you'll get tons of info.
 
Great ideas abound here!

Some thoughts on realism:

I think the general problem can be summed up by saying that, in real life, a great many things are HARD. In a realistic game, these same things would be hard.

1) Hitting your target with a gun is not an easy operation. A scientist who starts out swinging at things with a crowbar (Yeah, HL is cool.) shouldn't even be very good with that -- at least at first (more on that in a bit). But an M9 pistol? Better be D&@N CLOSE! Shotgun? Well, sure, he can make hits, but wild misses just as easily if he's not concentrating and taking his time. Two points here: One is that an aimed shot takes time. I don't think that the player should have to align the sights manually, but he/she should have to give the character time to get as set as he is able in order to make the best shot he can. Maybe a second for an aimed pistol shot, and a couple of seconds to steady a rifle. And a shot while moving is something like 5 times harder. But here's the rub (and point two): his best is none too good, at first, but I think he should improve. Perhaps in the old manner of character or experience points from the old RPGs, a character's skill with a weapon should improve with the number of shots taken -- gaining relative skill quickly at first and then more slowly as he/she advances to more mastery, and maybe even with the number of AIMED shots taken (rather than spray and pray). It would be quite an incentive to keep a weapon your character has used a lot. His/her abilities could increase in general, but much more significantly with that weapon. I might shoot a 1911 fairly quickly and fairly well. That doesn't mean I can hit my own car from the inside with an RPG-7. And what about the bad guys? They're trained (to one degree or another) soldiers/combatants, too. Why should they not be as good or even better than you are at this? That is a real issue. One generally develops a sense of super-humanity in a lot of these games. Play should realistically balance your cunning, stealth, and *maybe* like *one* special skill against realistic mitigating factors (complacency, tiredness, distraction, etc.) that your enemies might possess.

2) We've covered the problem of carrying 15 large weapons and several 1000 rds. of ammo. But, truth be told, most of the games I've seen provide so very much ammo just lying around that they lack any kind of credibility. I mean, even on a military base, you aren't going to find crates of ammo, grenades, rockets, etc. in hundreds of spots just waiting to be found. This is sometimes dealt with a bit more realistically (robbing the dead or breaking into storage areas) but it should still generally come with choices: "I'm almost out of 5.56. If I kill this "terrorist" I can take his ammo, but it's 7.62x39 or 5.45x39, so I'll have to take his rifle, too. (See section 1. What if I'm really good with my M-4? I'll lose a lot of my experience advantage if I change platforms.) If I take his rifle, will I leave my M4 behind or try to struggle along with two? What if I have to set down something important in order to do so? What if I can't run very fast with all this extra gear? Etc." It would be quite realistic to start a scenario with one weapon and maybe two mags and if that isn't enough you'll have to improvise and/or take what you need from your opponents. Not just look behind that stack of tires in the motor pool and there's 4 open ammo cans of your choice stuff.

3) We've discussed how sound is a lost concept in most games. I LOVED the idea of loud gun shots making ambient noise suppressed for a LONG time, but maybe you could find realistic gear like ear plugs that could help with that. Seems picky, but you are going to be in a distracting amount of pain after firing too many bursts from that M240 inside a concrete building without some ear protection -- and you won't hear your enemies advancing as well as you could before.
But, on another topic, gunshots are loud and very discernible to anyone trained with weapons. If I fire a .308 on a street, everyone for about 4 blocks in all directions should know about it. Fire a pistol indoors? Well, folks outside should have heard it at least, and the enemy within earshot should react immediately. (This could be modified to great effect by the loudness and type of ambient sound, too. Is it a quiet spring day in the woods or a thunderstorm at night in a foundry?) You just alerted them to your position and gave them a pretty good idea of your position. Further, it is hard to imagine a modern scenario wherein they wouldn't use their communications gear to let their whole chain of command know. Sucks, but that's the way it really is. (It's hard/frustrating, like I said.) You've alerted the neighborhood? Well, then you're going to have to vacate. If your movements are covered by a further barrage of gunfire (that doesn't kill EVERY enemy in the area), you're going to have an even harder time losing your trackers. This greatly restricts game play, but the story line could be written to work with it and it would be much more realistic.

4) Again on wounding: Yes all guns should have wounding potential roughly equivalent to their realistic capabilities. But getting wounded SUCKS! Yeah, you've got your Level III vest on and can't run all that fast, but you just got shot in the LEG by a guy with an MP5. Ok. Assuming it missed the femoral artery (and/or you got medical attention immediately) you aren't dying and probably killed off that guy, too. But, you shouldn't then be running around like nothing's wrong. A lot of people have complained about hitting someone in the foot with a .50 cal and he dies (or doesn't). Well, he sure is VERY NEARLY out of the battle for good, unless he has no choice but to fight on, but his level of effectiveness is going to be 1/2 or 1/3 of what it should be and if he does fight on, it will probably become WORSE, not better. And that works for both good guys and bad. Shoot a bad guy in the leg and he should require assistance just to move very far/fast. And guess what? You got shot in the face with a .380? Dead. That's it. Your trauma plate didn't help. Yeah, that's a very lucky shot (or a close up surprise) but that is how it works. Blown clear of a vehicle by an IED? Well, your armor didn't *just* soak up quite a shock. It may have saved your life, but your body is in a seriously compromised state and without help, you will probably not make it out alive. You probably can't hear or see. Maybe ever again. Certainly, you won't be in fighting trim.
And, if you're in a combat situation and are are still fighting after 10 or 20 hits to your armor and various minor wounds, well, that's amazing, but your days are numbered. No amount of med-packs and health-ups will put you back to 100%. And, throughout the course of the campaign, your "MAX" condition should reflect that. Sad but true.

5) Chaos SUCKS: Bullet don't penetrate when they should. Or do when they weren't expected to. As noted before, wounding hits may be very serious, even if you're wearing armor and the caliber was small. Shrapnel might kill you, wound you, miss you (blast damage is another topic) but them's the breaks. Wind gusts deflect bullets, as do foliage, obstructions, etc. Guns jam. Sometimes they break for good. Sometimes objects just don't work right or at all. Surfaces are slippery, sometimes you trip over things or become entangled. Vehicles run poorly (especially with damage -- and then, not for long). Etc., etc.

These are VERY challenging points to design a game around. But when someone figures out how, boy will they have the game world by the throat! But, as someone pointed out, there would be a lot of folks who would not feel it was "fun," so it would get a bit of bad press, too.

Whew! Come on folks, there's more like this! Help me think of more!

-Sam
 
To any game designer reading this, note some items repeated in almost every post

#1 shotguns are tremendously powerful compared to handguns and assault rifles. With buckshot they ar quite long range (moreso than handguns), with slugs they are VERY long range

#2 pistols are weak, not supergood. Weapons that shoot the same basic ammo type should have equal damage.

#3 Guns aren't easy to shoot, defineately not hip shoot but when used properly even crappy guns are deadly accurate.

#4 bullets go through all sorts of stuff like locks, walls, doors, cars, bushes, etc. The bullets will deflect some, but anyone right behind such objects are toast.
 
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