I would second the old mil spec 1911's. I still carry one that my grandfather carried in war. Never failed him nor has it me. You need 0 tools to take them apart. The parts of the gun itself serve as the only tools you need. He told me about guys driving tent stakes in the ground with them and still shoot fine. Mine has never ever choked on FMJ ammo. Even wadcutters and hollow points feed 99% of the time. This is an 80 year old Colt mind you.
The Glock kB thread got me thinkin...
- Thread starter Quick Draw McGraw
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Quick Draw McGraw
Member
Well JohnKSa, you definitely got me thinking about the beretta...
I've read before about the heavy hammer of the beretta, but the durability issue worries me some.
Their slides have been problematic correct? Are there any models that have beefed up slides or some aftermarket slide that might be stronger?
If a beretta can really feed that well, it might be worth it to spend the extra money on something to help durability. Maybe this is silly but I thought I'd ask. (I'd also consider putting an aftermarket barrel on a Glock, although I still have concerns about how a Polymer frame would hold up compared to a metal frame if it blows up. I've seen Glocks and HK's split in the grip frame, and I figure a metal gun might hold up better. Educate me if that is unfounded
)
Anyway, thanks again for the input. Can anybody elaborate on the Berettas? JohnKSa had some good points that actually had some substance and reasoning for the recommendations (not that plain old recommendations are bad, but that was just ... above and beyond... ), which really got me thinking...
I've read before about the heavy hammer of the beretta, but the durability issue worries me some.
Their slides have been problematic correct? Are there any models that have beefed up slides or some aftermarket slide that might be stronger?
If a beretta can really feed that well, it might be worth it to spend the extra money on something to help durability. Maybe this is silly but I thought I'd ask. (I'd also consider putting an aftermarket barrel on a Glock, although I still have concerns about how a Polymer frame would hold up compared to a metal frame if it blows up. I've seen Glocks and HK's split in the grip frame, and I figure a metal gun might hold up better. Educate me if that is unfounded
)Anyway, thanks again for the input. Can anybody elaborate on the Berettas? JohnKSa had some good points that actually had some substance and reasoning for the recommendations (not that plain old recommendations are bad, but that was just ... above and beyond...
), which really got me thinking...Now that I think about, yes, the polymer frames tend to be less resistant to catastrophic failures. Rugers, Berettas and (loose) 1911s might be better choices if you take lots of really crappy ammo into account.
Personally, I would count on being able to provide a steady diet of decent, jacketed 9mm. The stuff is everywhere.
A handgun is a close-range, last-ditch defensive weapon anyway... in a SHTF situation your rifle is a much more vital tool and will see a lot more use. Just how many bad guys are you expecting to kill with your pistol that your chances of having a blow-out are anywhere near your chances of getting popped first?
Are you planning on hunting rabbits or plinking a lot with your sidearm in a survival situation? I would rather have something that is lightweight, won't rust easily, can be detail-stripped with a "rusty nail", and will work when I need it than something that is guaranteed to stay in one piece on the off-chance that I have no other option but to shoot 9mm gun-show lead reloads.
Personally, I would count on being able to provide a steady diet of decent, jacketed 9mm. The stuff is everywhere.
A handgun is a close-range, last-ditch defensive weapon anyway... in a SHTF situation your rifle is a much more vital tool and will see a lot more use. Just how many bad guys are you expecting to kill with your pistol that your chances of having a blow-out are anywhere near your chances of getting popped first?
Are you planning on hunting rabbits or plinking a lot with your sidearm in a survival situation? I would rather have something that is lightweight, won't rust easily, can be detail-stripped with a "rusty nail", and will work when I need it than something that is guaranteed to stay in one piece on the off-chance that I have no other option but to shoot 9mm gun-show lead reloads.
Quick Draw McGraw
Member
middy,
your points are all well-taken, and they of course would be taken in to consideration in a "real" situation. I purposefully stacked the situation like this, though, because I wanted to discuss how different autoloaders handle bad ammo.
Additionally, we all know that a gun with no ammo is worthless, so I don't think it's good to dismiss the worth in a handgun being able to cycle and shoot anything (not that i think you're suggesting this).
So, yes, all of this is admittedly far-fetched and unlikely, but it is obviously more of a theory discussion; we're examining a limiting case, here. I'm not looking for an every day carry gun with this discussion. (not necessarily, anyways ) Heck, there's really no reason why you shouldn't be able to grab both in a SHTF situation, so this is really just an item for discussion.
I suppose that was rather longer than it needed to be, but I have a tendency to do that.
Anyway, is there a handgun that has more of a mechanical/ structural advantage in reliability than a Beretta? (I'm of course expecting a lot yes answers to that) By mechanical advantage I mean an inherently superior feed system and/or chamber that allows flexibility in feeding and functioning. By structural advantage, I mean a high quality of construction that would promote better functioning. (would CZ have an advantage there?) I guess I'm looking a little more at the mechanical advantages, because I think most would agree that the major pistol makers put out an acceptably put together piece. OK, let my flawed thinking have it...
your points are all well-taken, and they of course would be taken in to consideration in a "real" situation. I purposefully stacked the situation like this, though, because I wanted to discuss how different autoloaders handle bad ammo.
Additionally, we all know that a gun with no ammo is worthless, so I don't think it's good to dismiss the worth in a handgun being able to cycle and shoot anything (not that i think you're suggesting this).
So, yes, all of this is admittedly far-fetched and unlikely, but it is obviously more of a theory discussion; we're examining a limiting case, here. I'm not looking for an every day carry gun with this discussion. (not necessarily, anyways
) Heck, there's really no reason why you shouldn't be able to grab both in a SHTF situation, so this is really just an item for discussion.I suppose that was rather longer than it needed to be, but I have a tendency to do that.
Anyway, is there a handgun that has more of a mechanical/ structural advantage in reliability than a Beretta? (I'm of course expecting a lot yes answers to that) By mechanical advantage I mean an inherently superior feed system and/or chamber that allows flexibility in feeding and functioning. By structural advantage, I mean a high quality of construction that would promote better functioning. (would CZ have an advantage there?) I guess I'm looking a little more at the mechanical advantages, because I think most would agree that the major pistol makers put out an acceptably put together piece. OK, let my flawed thinking have it...
Highland Ranger
Member
HK
CZ52GUY
Member
I have 3 Glocks (all 40's)
2 CZ-75's (9mm)
I've had excellent results with both platforms.
Glocks don't seem to react well to re-loads. 99% of the time when a Glock goes KB, I hear that re-loads were involved.
My conclusion, I won't run reloads through my Glocks.
My CZ-75's eat just about anything I feed them...I can only recall one or two failures to go into battery with my CZ-75B when it was brand new, using UMC...a simple Tap/Rack resolved that...hasn't choked since.
Glocks I think are easier to operate for the unintiated. No manual safety, no DA/SA trigger difference to think about...HOWEVER, a Glock trigger is a little weird. I've gotten use to mine, but not everyone cares for them.
The CZ-75 triggers are generally quite good (although some folks indicate they require a break-in period). My "B" was good out of the box and getting better...my Transitional was purchased used and has a very sweet trigger.
Bottom line, autoloaders are like shoes...no one brand/style fits everybody. If the solid waste collides with rotating blades...I think both these brands would do well by you (as would several other quality brands mentioned by others). Torture tests notwithstanding, I don't think there is a single "gold standard" brand that can claim reliability superiority over all others. Sig/HK/Beretta/Glock/CZ/the 1911 platform by a quality maker...all have their good points and bad...you really have to try them on and walk with them a little to see what fits you.
Good luck and safe shooting,
CZ52'
2 CZ-75's (9mm)
I've had excellent results with both platforms.
Glocks don't seem to react well to re-loads. 99% of the time when a Glock goes KB, I hear that re-loads were involved.
My conclusion, I won't run reloads through my Glocks.
My CZ-75's eat just about anything I feed them...I can only recall one or two failures to go into battery with my CZ-75B when it was brand new, using UMC...a simple Tap/Rack resolved that...hasn't choked since.
Glocks I think are easier to operate for the unintiated. No manual safety, no DA/SA trigger difference to think about...HOWEVER, a Glock trigger is a little weird. I've gotten use to mine, but not everyone cares for them.
The CZ-75 triggers are generally quite good (although some folks indicate they require a break-in period). My "B" was good out of the box and getting better...my Transitional was purchased used and has a very sweet trigger.
Bottom line, autoloaders are like shoes...no one brand/style fits everybody. If the solid waste collides with rotating blades...I think both these brands would do well by you (as would several other quality brands mentioned by others). Torture tests notwithstanding, I don't think there is a single "gold standard" brand that can claim reliability superiority over all others. Sig/HK/Beretta/Glock/CZ/the 1911 platform by a quality maker...all have their good points and bad...you really have to try them on and walk with them a little to see what fits you.
Good luck and safe shooting,
CZ52'
cracked butt
Member
The slides-breaking-on-the beretta-92 is pretty much an urban legend. I've never heard of one breaking on a 92FS. The one weak spot of the pistol to me seems to be the srpings- There are 3 tiny springs in the pistol- the trigger return spring, another on the trigger bar, and the third on the sear- all are very small. Two of these are fairly difficult to reinstall. Not sure how long they last before they break, but they are easy to lose, and don't plan on going anywhere in a hurry if you plan on doing a detail strip of the frame.
ANd yes, the pistol will feed justa about anything. I've shot everything from fmjs, hollow points to cast semiwadcutters though mine without a hitch. The only 1 jam I ever had was when I was shooting some cast bullets at a minimum load- there wasn't enough power in the load to push the slide all the way back, but with the open slide design, there is almost no way to jam it up in a way that you can't clear it in a jiffy.
ANd yes, the pistol will feed justa about anything. I've shot everything from fmjs, hollow points to cast semiwadcutters though mine without a hitch. The only 1 jam I ever had was when I was shooting some cast bullets at a minimum load- there wasn't enough power in the load to push the slide all the way back, but with the open slide design, there is almost no way to jam it up in a way that you can't clear it in a jiffy.
themic
Member
Hate to sneak in the RAP 401 mention here and there, but it really does eat anything I put in it. Honestly, 9mm is a great caliber to find guns that take anything and keep on ticking. However, you should go out and shoot some different kinds. Love my RAP, dependable as heck, concealable, but prefer to shoot the .45, even with the 20lb spring and the bigger kick. As does my wife and all her friends.
Waxed Canvas
Member
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2004
- Messages
- 104
Ina shtf scenario, my biggest concern would be a steady supply of clean water followed by food, medicine and then safe shelter. Gun wise, give me a .22LR revolver and lever action rifle. I can store hundreds of thousands of .22 LR HP's for a small investment.
That handgun you baby now in the safe could do anyhting when put in real conditions. I owuld be more concerned about having a good rifle or shotgun.
Any personal arms would only be used as a stepping stone to acquire arms from an invading force say like the Chinese Communists. Myself, I want the biggest hunk of lead I can control on my side thus the 1911 is my choice.
I posed this same question to a former DEA agent who had also been involved in operations with our military in Nations known to send lots o' drugs to our shores. He told me without question, have a good .22 LR pistol and rifle with copious amounts of ammo on hand.
That handgun you baby now in the safe could do anyhting when put in real conditions. I owuld be more concerned about having a good rifle or shotgun.
Any personal arms would only be used as a stepping stone to acquire arms from an invading force say like the Chinese Communists. Myself, I want the biggest hunk of lead I can control on my side thus the 1911 is my choice.
I posed this same question to a former DEA agent who had also been involved in operations with our military in Nations known to send lots o' drugs to our shores. He told me without question, have a good .22 LR pistol and rifle with copious amounts of ammo on hand.
BluesBear
member
Don't forget that in a SHTF occurance the Ruger Blackhawk Convertible would be a very welcom addition to your personal arsenal. The ability to fire .38/.357 and 9mm would mean that you could find ammo almost anywhere.
While not the best for self defense against multiple targets it would make a good backup weapon and it will digest all of the 9mm that your primary semi-automatic might not.
While not the best for self defense against multiple targets it would make a good backup weapon and it will digest all of the 9mm that your primary semi-automatic might not.
The slide separation issue on the Beretta pistols has been solved. I haven't heard of any new incidents in years (decades?). If you're worried, get a Brigadier model. they have a slightly heavier slide that is reinforced in the area that was supposed to break. Sort of a patch on a problem that didn't exist by the time the guns were introduced--I guess.
The trigger return springs do break occasionally. The gun will continue to function, but you have to return the trigger manually. If this worries you, Wolff Springs makes an "INS" Trigger Spring for the Beretta 92 series that replaces this spring. They are supposed to be far more durable and they are certainly much easier to replace.
I've never heard any complaints about the other springs breaking. I have heard of people losing the trigger bar tension spring, but only during disassembly. Get a handful of spares from Beretta for a few bucks if this is a concern. While you're at it, throw in a batch of recoil springs.
Durability is still way up there for the Berettas--I've heard of several going way past 50K rounds. IMO, the Beretta just doesn't seem to be as much of a standout in this department as Glock and Ruger are.
The main black mark against the Glock has to do with the lighter primer hit from the striker, not the restriction about lead. The lead bullets issue is a non-issue--the odds of finding a large stash of lead bullet 9mm ammo are virtually nil. Besides, my Beretta 92 manual recommends against the use of lead ammo too and it uses a standard-rifling barrel.
There's something to be said for .22LR, however, I would never trust my life to a rimfire firearm. Nearly all the malfunctions I have encountered, ammo related and otherwise, have been with rimfire firearms. Also, the storage life of rimfire ammo tends to be much shorter than with centerfire. And, of course, there's the issue of the effectiveness, or lack thereof, of the .22LR as an antipersonnel round.
I'd definitely keep a rimfire rifle and lots of .22 ammo handy for small game hunting and varmint control, but I surely wouldn't want to be stuck relying on a .22 handgun for self-defense purposes...
The trigger return springs do break occasionally. The gun will continue to function, but you have to return the trigger manually. If this worries you, Wolff Springs makes an "INS" Trigger Spring for the Beretta 92 series that replaces this spring. They are supposed to be far more durable and they are certainly much easier to replace.
I've never heard any complaints about the other springs breaking. I have heard of people losing the trigger bar tension spring, but only during disassembly. Get a handful of spares from Beretta for a few bucks if this is a concern. While you're at it, throw in a batch of recoil springs.
Durability is still way up there for the Berettas--I've heard of several going way past 50K rounds. IMO, the Beretta just doesn't seem to be as much of a standout in this department as Glock and Ruger are.
The main black mark against the Glock has to do with the lighter primer hit from the striker, not the restriction about lead. The lead bullets issue is a non-issue--the odds of finding a large stash of lead bullet 9mm ammo are virtually nil. Besides, my Beretta 92 manual recommends against the use of lead ammo too and it uses a standard-rifling barrel.
There's something to be said for .22LR, however, I would never trust my life to a rimfire firearm. Nearly all the malfunctions I have encountered, ammo related and otherwise, have been with rimfire firearms. Also, the storage life of rimfire ammo tends to be much shorter than with centerfire. And, of course, there's the issue of the effectiveness, or lack thereof, of the .22LR as an antipersonnel round.
I'd definitely keep a rimfire rifle and lots of .22 ammo handy for small game hunting and varmint control, but I surely wouldn't want to be stuck relying on a .22 handgun for self-defense purposes...
bradvanhorn
Member
I'm really late for this party, so I don't really know what's happening, but I wanted to inject a couple quick comments based on the posts I've managed to read thus far.
Now, having exposed myself to the flames likely to arise from my comments, I must add that I really like the Beretta. I just spent the last week going through a moderately intense shooting course (about 1500 rounds over five days), where my Beretta M9 functioned flawlessly. Not a single malfunction, and it was as accurate as I could make it. I was very impressed with the guns performance (my performance needs a little more work), and my only complaint is the slide mounted safety/decocker can sometimes cause my brain to misfire. Otherwise, the gun was fine, and I had a great time.
- Brad
Not really... I just spent a few days shooting with one of the guys who had an early M9 slide break on him. We shared some interesting war stories, and he has a lot of nasty scars that I'm really glad I don't have.
I'm not sure I'd wager money on that one. We break about one out of three each year - just under 700 in 2002 and just over 700 in 2003. I'm not the Armory Chief, so I can't give you the specifics, but I'm always curious how are guns are holding up and I'll ask him about this topic almost weekly.
Now, having exposed myself to the flames likely to arise from my comments, I must add that I really like the Beretta. I just spent the last week going through a moderately intense shooting course (about 1500 rounds over five days), where my Beretta M9 functioned flawlessly. Not a single malfunction, and it was as accurate as I could make it. I was very impressed with the guns performance (my performance needs a little more work), and my only complaint is the slide mounted safety/decocker can sometimes cause my brain to misfire. Otherwise, the gun was fine, and I had a great time.
- Brad
Slides did crack on the early M9s. However, that happened in the middle 1980s and I've not heard of any recent incidents of this type. While it's not an urban legend, it's also not really relevant given that it was resolved 2 decades ago.
Saying that "one out of three guns is breaking each year" is pretty vague. With only that to go on, the guns could be 15 years old and have 200K rounds through them when trigger springs break. Next time you talk to the armorer, ask him what is breaking, how many rounds have been put through the guns before they break, and what pressure level of ammo? Standard pressure, +P, NATO (which is generally either +P or +P+), or +P+?
For us average folk who can't afford to practice with the equivalent of +P or +P+, a Beretta lasts a long time. There's a guy on the Beretta Forum who claims to have something like 100K rounds through his 92FS.
I'm not flaming, and I would like to hear more specifics from the armorer.
Saying that "one out of three guns is breaking each year" is pretty vague. With only that to go on, the guns could be 15 years old and have 200K rounds through them when trigger springs break. Next time you talk to the armorer, ask him what is breaking, how many rounds have been put through the guns before they break, and what pressure level of ammo? Standard pressure, +P, NATO (which is generally either +P or +P+), or +P+?
For us average folk who can't afford to practice with the equivalent of +P or +P+, a Beretta lasts a long time. There's a guy on the Beretta Forum who claims to have something like 100K rounds through his 92FS.
I'm not flaming, and I would like to hear more specifics from the armorer.
Sykokinesis
Member
First off, there is no bad ammo for Glocks. I've shot ammo they looked worse than my car with no problems. The XD will do the same.
As for buying a 9mm, well that's up to you but I would want some more beef to throw at someone. At the very lest a .40
9mm's shoot a little hot and aren't as accurate as the large rounds.
I've heard stories of guys on pcp that kept running at the cops after being shot with several rounds from a 9mm. Stop them in their tracks with a .45 or.40.
As for buying a 9mm, well that's up to you but I would want some more beef to throw at someone. At the very lest a .40
9mm's shoot a little hot and aren't as accurate as the large rounds.
I've heard stories of guys on pcp that kept running at the cops after being shot with several rounds from a 9mm. Stop them in their tracks with a .45 or.40.
BluesBear
member
Well, it's plain to see you have no "hands-on" experience with PCP people. 
Nothing less than a solid CNC hit will stop them in their tracks.
bradvanhorn
Member
JohnKSa -
One out of three breaking means that our armorers cannot fix the problem here. The weapon is taken out of inventory and sent off (to Albany I believe) for depot maintenance. Since the armorers can fix most routine problems, I assume we are talking cracked slides or frames - though I don't know this to be true. The armorers have said major failures can occur at any time - as early as 5k rounds, but normally in the 10k-20k range.
I was also trading some email with Pat Rogers, who has been training with the Det One Marines, and he said the augmentees showing up with Berettas were being asked to bring two, because the Berettas were going down hard with all the shooting they do (about 500 rounds daily). The Det One Kimbers were not suffering this problem.
Anyway, I didn't want to hijack this thread, but I did want to point out that while I think the Beretta is a fine weapon (I fully trust mine), I think it can - and does - have some durability issues.
One out of three breaking means that our armorers cannot fix the problem here. The weapon is taken out of inventory and sent off (to Albany I believe) for depot maintenance. Since the armorers can fix most routine problems, I assume we are talking cracked slides or frames - though I don't know this to be true. The armorers have said major failures can occur at any time - as early as 5k rounds, but normally in the 10k-20k range.
I was also trading some email with Pat Rogers, who has been training with the Det One Marines, and he said the augmentees showing up with Berettas were being asked to bring two, because the Berettas were going down hard with all the shooting they do (about 500 rounds daily). The Det One Kimbers were not suffering this problem.
Anyway, I didn't want to hijack this thread, but I did want to point out that while I think the Beretta is a fine weapon (I fully trust mine), I think it can - and does - have some durability issues.
Marko Kloos
Moderator Emeritus
There are a few excellent 9mm handguns on the market that have reputations for excellent reliability. Glock 17/19, SIG P226/228, CZ-75, Beretta 92FS, Browning HP come to mind immediately.
That said, the one 9mm I'd grab if my life depended on its ability to shoot ammo of unknown provenance would be the HK P7.
That said, the one 9mm I'd grab if my life depended on its ability to shoot ammo of unknown provenance would be the HK P7.
Sykokinesis
Member
Why sure I do, i've dealt with many drug people. I was a drug person myself back in the late `80's. I fought a lot a guys on dust and I'll just say that pain isn't a factor. Sharp blows to the head don't matter.
One more point to meantion is that my Uncle blew his face off in front of his family while on dust, sure it was only a 16 gauge but it still didn't kill him for 3 days.
Sure if you get lucky and get a head shot the guy will go down, but a chest shot with a 9mm won't stop him from a full out attack. So shoot and run, shoot again and run some more. Maybe you'll get lucky and get the head shot but if you don't keep running and shooting and eventually he/she will bleed to death.
:banghead:
What kind of ammo are they using, and how often are the recoil springs getting replaced?
How do the armorers keep track of round counts? Based on a usage of 500 rounds a day (from your post), it only takes a bit more than a month to get to 20K, the point at which you say 66% of them have failed. Are you saying that the Marines are replacing two thirds of their M9s before they've used them 2 months?
Something obvious is being missed here. If Beretta was really selling guns that only lasted 5K to 20K rounds, the web would be overflowing with angry Beretta owners. As I mentioned, I can't recall hearing about a slide failure for ages, nor do I remember offhand anyone complaining about their frame cracking. That's not the kind of thing the average internet/gun user would keep quiet, IMO.
Given that, I'm curious to know how the military is destroying Berettas at a prodigious rate while the civvy market seems to think they hold up well.
Next time you get a chance to talk with an armorer, I think it would be very interesting hear what they have to say about how they figure round counts and what they call "breaking".
How do the armorers keep track of round counts? Based on a usage of 500 rounds a day (from your post), it only takes a bit more than a month to get to 20K, the point at which you say 66% of them have failed. Are you saying that the Marines are replacing two thirds of their M9s before they've used them 2 months?
Something obvious is being missed here. If Beretta was really selling guns that only lasted 5K to 20K rounds, the web would be overflowing with angry Beretta owners. As I mentioned, I can't recall hearing about a slide failure for ages, nor do I remember offhand anyone complaining about their frame cracking. That's not the kind of thing the average internet/gun user would keep quiet, IMO.
Given that, I'm curious to know how the military is destroying Berettas at a prodigious rate while the civvy market seems to think they hold up well.
Next time you get a chance to talk with an armorer, I think it would be very interesting hear what they have to say about how they figure round counts and what they call "breaking".
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There is apparently a real difference between the military experience (durability) with the M9 and the civilian experience with the 92FS. I don't think there's a whole lot of doubt that the military experience with the M9 has been different, but there have not been a lot of good research as to why? There have been a couple of good discussions of it over on Tactical Forums (and now this one here). I have seen a couple of other discussions of the subject elsewhere.
I can think of a couple of possible explanation including the military tends to buy in large contract runs so if you get a run of "bad" weapons, you have a lot of them. A couple of examples of that happening would be the concentration of Glock E- prefix frames in the Bernalillo County Sheriff's Office resulted in the E-prefix manufacturing error (slide rails breaking off) becoming public knowledge (even though Glock was aware of it, they had managed to keep it quiet); another example would be NYPD's humber of Glock 19s (and good record keeping) revealing a reliability issue with the Glock 19--the infamous Phase 3 failures.
Also, as whole, military weapons tend to get exposed to harsher conditions ("in the field") and tend to get used harder (and with less TLC) than you see with the average civilian owner who has several hundred dollars of his own money invested in it.
I can think of a couple of possible explanation including the military tends to buy in large contract runs so if you get a run of "bad" weapons, you have a lot of them. A couple of examples of that happening would be the concentration of Glock E- prefix frames in the Bernalillo County Sheriff's Office resulted in the E-prefix manufacturing error (slide rails breaking off) becoming public knowledge (even though Glock was aware of it, they had managed to keep it quiet); another example would be NYPD's humber of Glock 19s (and good record keeping) revealing a reliability issue with the Glock 19--the infamous Phase 3 failures.
Also, as whole, military weapons tend to get exposed to harsher conditions ("in the field") and tend to get used harder (and with less TLC) than you see with the average civilian owner who has several hundred dollars of his own money invested in it.
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Lobotomy Boy
Member
- Joined
- Feb 16, 2004
- Messages
- 2,449
Regarding the original question, with all due respect it seems that QD McGraw is just fishing for an excuse to bash Glocks about their dislike of lead bullets because he has narrowed the scenario to a place beyond ridiculous to emphasize the danger of this situation.
In reality you wouldn't find enough lead 9mm ammo laying around to do serious damage to your Glock. Remember, in a SHTF scenario you will be using your gun completely differently than you do now. You will not waste precious ammo shooting paper at the range. Rather, you will be operating under the one-shot-one-kill principle. If you encounter so many opponants that you blow off enough lead ammo to KB your Glock, well, you will be dead long before you have a problem. If all you can find is lead ammo, you will either have plenty of time to clean the gun between firing sessions or you will be overwhelmed by a numerically superior opponent and captured or killed. Remember, combat is long periods of boredom punctuated by moments of sheer terror.
If you are relying on a handgun in extreme combat situations, you will be completely scrod before you ever have lead buildup in the barrel of your Glock. In close quarter combat you will either have a carbine or you will be killed or captured. In long-range combat, you will want an accurate, high-powered rifle with good optics. Your handgun will be a last-ditch weapon that will see little, if any use. Anyone who thinks otherwise has watched far too many B westerns.
In reality you wouldn't find enough lead 9mm ammo laying around to do serious damage to your Glock. Remember, in a SHTF scenario you will be using your gun completely differently than you do now. You will not waste precious ammo shooting paper at the range. Rather, you will be operating under the one-shot-one-kill principle. If you encounter so many opponants that you blow off enough lead ammo to KB your Glock, well, you will be dead long before you have a problem. If all you can find is lead ammo, you will either have plenty of time to clean the gun between firing sessions or you will be overwhelmed by a numerically superior opponent and captured or killed. Remember, combat is long periods of boredom punctuated by moments of sheer terror.
If you are relying on a handgun in extreme combat situations, you will be completely scrod before you ever have lead buildup in the barrel of your Glock. In close quarter combat you will either have a carbine or you will be killed or captured. In long-range combat, you will want an accurate, high-powered rifle with good optics. Your handgun will be a last-ditch weapon that will see little, if any use. Anyone who thinks otherwise has watched far too many B westerns.
This post gave me a good laugh...
If SHTF I'll be carrying whatever I'm most confortable with. If it gets to the point that I need a 9MM there will be plenty of free ones laying around, next to free rifles with plenty of free mags and ammo!
So what you are really asking is if you only had one handgun what would it be...
I would with the most versitile handgun cartridge-10MM
If SHTF I'll be carrying whatever I'm most confortable with. If it gets to the point that I need a 9MM there will be plenty of free ones laying around, next to free rifles with plenty of free mags and ammo!
So what you are really asking is if you only had one handgun what would it be...
I would with the most versitile handgun cartridge-10MM
Red_SC
Member
Hmmm,
Must feed Anything.
Must not blow up, even if you don't know you picked up super hot reloads.
Must be simple mechanism that never breaks.
Must be reasonably accurate.
Doesn't matter what it looks like.
Sounds like you're describing a Ruger P89 to me.
Must feed Anything.
Must not blow up, even if you don't know you picked up super hot reloads.
Must be simple mechanism that never breaks.
Must be reasonably accurate.
Doesn't matter what it looks like.
Sounds like you're describing a Ruger P89 to me.
Quick Draw McGraw
Member
Some clarification seems to be in order...
OK, first of all, Lobotomy Boy, I did not start this thread to bash Glocks. I have nothing against them. Heck, as I stated in the beginning of the thread I am researching my first handgun purchase. I don't have anything to "favor" over a Glock.
The lead bullets were just kind of tossed in. Once again, I do not own a handgun, and therefore have not shopped very much for handgun ammunition. I honestly have no clue how much lead ammunition is out there. If you folks were to tell me that the lead ammunition is a non issue (and you have), I would take your word for it.
Additionally, I fully understand that a 9mm pistol would be way down the list of priorities if the SHTF. THIS IS NOT MEANT TO BE A REALISTIC SITUATION! I purposefully stacked the situation in hopes to start a discussion on how different 9mm pistols (heck, you can throw other calibers in, too) handle poor ammunition. Perhaps it would not have been so misleading if I had just asked the question flat out instead of disguising it in a made-up and not very likely SHTF scenario. I have learned my lesson and will do better in future threads.
Oh, and back to the lead bullets, I didn't think that they were a real prevelant cause of kB's in Glocks. Maybe I'm wrong but I thought it had more to do with out of spec and/or overcharged ammunition. Please correct me if I'm wrong. With that in my mind, I decided to ask High-Roaders what they thought was the best gun suited to shooting bad ammunition. I've read that Glocks sometimes don't like bad ammo, and sometimes their Strikers don't hit the really tough primers hard enough. Glock folks, is that true or is it internet rumor? Once again, it's a serious question and I'd like to know. If you guys were to tell me (some of you have) that you'd still be confident in your Glocks, I'd have no reason not to believe you.
One final clarification: -X-, I'm not asking, "if you only had one handgun what would it be..." If I were asking that, I'd say something to the effect of, 'If you only could have one handgun, what would it be?'
(Keep in mind that I would be asking this question with my newly gained knowledge of just asking a straight question, so I wouldn't say something like, 'let's say that the SHTF and you only have one handgun because rifles and shotguns have been outlawed and you can't pick up bad guys guns cause they have a special computer chip planted in their hands that only allows them to use their guns, so you are only going to be able to use ONE gun for the rest of your life...what would you pick?')
Ok, sorry for the length. For those of you that did post suggestions, thanks for playin' along...
OK, first of all, Lobotomy Boy, I did not start this thread to bash Glocks. I have nothing against them. Heck, as I stated in the beginning of the thread I am researching my first handgun purchase. I don't have anything to "favor" over a Glock.
The lead bullets were just kind of tossed in. Once again, I do not own a handgun, and therefore have not shopped very much for handgun ammunition. I honestly have no clue how much lead ammunition is out there. If you folks were to tell me that the lead ammunition is a non issue (and you have), I would take your word for it.
Additionally, I fully understand that a 9mm pistol would be way down the list of priorities if the SHTF. THIS IS NOT MEANT TO BE A REALISTIC SITUATION! I purposefully stacked the situation in hopes to start a discussion on how different 9mm pistols (heck, you can throw other calibers in, too) handle poor ammunition. Perhaps it would not have been so misleading if I had just asked the question flat out instead of disguising it in a made-up and not very likely SHTF scenario. I have learned my lesson and will do better in future threads.
Oh, and back to the lead bullets, I didn't think that they were a real prevelant cause of kB's in Glocks. Maybe I'm wrong but I thought it had more to do with out of spec and/or overcharged ammunition. Please correct me if I'm wrong. With that in my mind, I decided to ask High-Roaders what they thought was the best gun suited to shooting bad ammunition. I've read that Glocks sometimes don't like bad ammo, and sometimes their Strikers don't hit the really tough primers hard enough. Glock folks, is that true or is it internet rumor? Once again, it's a serious question and I'd like to know. If you guys were to tell me (some of you have) that you'd still be confident in your Glocks, I'd have no reason not to believe you.
One final clarification: -X-, I'm not asking, "if you only had one handgun what would it be..." If I were asking that, I'd say something to the effect of, 'If you only could have one handgun, what would it be?'
(Keep in mind that I would be asking this question with my newly gained knowledge of just asking a straight question, so I wouldn't say something like, 'let's say that the SHTF and you only have one handgun because rifles and shotguns have been outlawed and you can't pick up bad guys guns cause they have a special computer chip planted in their hands that only allows them to use their guns, so you are only going to be able to use ONE gun for the rest of your life...what would you pick?') Ok, sorry for the length. For those of you that did post suggestions, thanks for playin' along...
Baba Louie
Member
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2002
- Messages
- 3,831
You want overdesign in a 9?
Lahti. Maybe a Radom. Not your everyday lightweight, late 20th century design, but better than Georg Luger's... Maybe.
I guess a BHP might fill the void as well.
I must be getting old, but I do like the Lahti's. Don't know how they'd do with stubby little CorBons tho. Seem to be a FMJ kinda thing.
Lahti. Maybe a Radom. Not your everyday lightweight, late 20th century design, but better than Georg Luger's... Maybe.
I guess a BHP might fill the void as well.
I must be getting old, but I do like the Lahti's. Don't know how they'd do with stubby little CorBons tho. Seem to be a FMJ kinda thing.
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