Glock KB's, Reason to go Steel?

Status
Not open for further replies.

amprecon

Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2002
Messages
1,549
Location
TN
It is no secret that the majority of KB's can be attributed to improper ammunition, be it reloaded or factory out-of-spec. It is also no secret that Glock’s are among the most popular make of semi-automatic handguns purchased in the United States, so deficiencies will be more apparent with Glocks because of their shear numbers. Glocks have a tremendous following for a reason, they are incredible auto-loading pistols. I won’t mention their attributes since their huge numbers speak for themselves. If Smith & Wesson or Sturm Ruger had as many pistols on the market, their products would probably be at the forefront of the KB hysteria, but unfortunately, by design, they’re not.
I have owned 6 Glocks in my lifetime (2 G21’s, a G36, a G17 & 2 G19’s ) and have used either new or factory reloaded ammunition and just a year ago, my own reloaded ammunition. As a new reloader, I was as careful as humanly possible to load each round as perfectly as I could, to check, double-check and triple-check. I have yet to experience any failure with my Glock pistols. All were purchased NIB, no factory rebuilds or otherwise.
Failures can occur with any pistol at any time, but catastrophic failures cause exceptional concern. Catastrophic failures may also happen to any pistol at any time, and the causes may be from one or several factors combined, ammunition + metallurgical impurities/weaknesses + improper care and maintenance + new design technology. Some claim that the unsupported portion of the chamber of Glock barrels is the leading cause for case rupture which contributes to the catastrophic failure of the weapon. New technology takes us to the edge of what was previously accepted as a safe and durable margin. But it also includes special attributes such as in a pistol’s case, durability, less weight, smaller frame and larger magazine capacity. However, if the weapon is utilized as planned by the designers, using “perfect†ammunition under “perfect†conditions their margin of safety or expected operation is reduced to obtain the “desired†aforementioned qualities.
In layman’s terms I am saying that in my opinion, an aluminum or polymer framed pistol is not as durable as a steel framed weapon under all real-world conditions, under controlled conditions the “reality“ is made malleable. A product will be portrayed by their producer to be a certain “some-thing†and perform “perfectly†as they have tested it under their “abusive†testing procedures in an environment they have created to duplicate the “real-worldâ€. However there are instances that occur in the real-world which they either have not considered or cannot duplicate. I am not saying that pistols designed with alloys or polymers won’t last, but that under certain conditions, might not perform as expected. Those “conditions†may never be experienced by 99.9% of their owners. But in the instance of that owner, that 0.1%, that the particular “condition†exists for that one moment in time when their survival hangs on the proper operation of a design, that we would want it to operate as we expect it to. It would be foolish to say that failures did not occur with all-steel pistols during periods of dire need, but do we need to take the chance?
After all this being said, I will probably keep my two Glock 19’s and just shoot the h*ll out of them whenever I can to help alleviate my “unwarranted†concerns. I do plan to buy a SA 1911 GI model soon, but have also added either a CZ75B or a Browning HP to my list of “wanted†pistols to have the peace-of-mind of an all-steel 9mm pistol. As ironic as this world is, there’s nothing to say that after I buy my all-steel pistols that one day I’ll find a problem with it or a crack and my entire case will have been blown to smithereens. As a side note, the most KB’s I’ve seen have been with Glocks and revolvers (hot reloads). I do not remember seeing KB pictures of any steel or aluminum alloy pistols. But as technology advances and we weave it into the future and discover it’s strengths and weaknesses we eventually conclude through successes and failures what is steadfastly durable and what fails and the conditions they’re exposed to when the successes and failures occur. It’s just a shame in which the way is determined, the tragedies and losses that occur when that one unrealized condition presents itself to cause an unwanted condition or failure.
Yes, I’ve been told I think too much.
 
I'm sure that every brand of handgun has had more than one KB or catastrophic failure. Glock has it's short comings and an army of people waiting for it to happen to what they consider the ugly duckling. I have heard:

S&W jams
Sig Rusts
Springfield rusts
Glock KB
Ruger inaccurate
Etc. Etc.
 
I am a little confused as to what the frame material of the gun has to do with the likeliness that it's going to have a failure. In a Glock, XD, HK, etc. all the "important" parts are still steel - slide, barrel, etc.

Perhaps there is something about Glocks that make them more likely to blow up, I have no idea - I don't own one. But I do own an XD9 and the gun is as solid as any I own and I shoot it without worry. The perceived quality of the barrel and slide steel is at least as good as my 1911's, my CZ, or my SIGs.

That said - I would certainly support anyone's personal decision to NOT shoot a gun that THEY are not comfortable with. There are too many choices out there to not shoot what you feel safe or secure with, regardless of the reason.
 
Shoot an H&K P7 or USP with enough lead bullet ammunition and it will kaboom.
The P7 less likely because the gas port will foul out long before the pressures rise to an unsafe level.
Any weapon will explode if a careless person is using it.
Any Automobile will crash if a careless person is driving it.
 
I don't think the Glock KBs have anything to do with the frame material. Assuming it's the gun's fault, it's more likely to be the unsupported chamber or firing out of battery. (I'm not convinced that the latter is a Glock problem--yet.)
 
Frame material is IRRELEVANT to the issue

of causing KB's (although it has some significance in terms of collateral damage when one occurs!). Glock KB's are the function of unsupported chambers and a high-pressure cartridge, exacerbated by rifling for which lead bullets are (supposedly) unsuitable. The unsupported chamber is the direct result of trying to cram the .40 S&W cartridge into a frame designed for the shorter 9mm.

Solutions:

1. Don't buy a Glock - or any gun w/an unsupported chamber, for that matter;
2. Replace the Glock barrel w/an aftermarket barrel;
3. Don't shoot lead bullets (at least not soft ones and not without FREQUENT cleaning). NOTE: The photos of the one Glock KB I saw involved factory Federal ammo, so "no reloads" is NOT a guarantee of safety.

FWIW, I shot a Glock 23 using my own 170 or 175 LSWC without incident for 2 or 3 years. I used hard-cast bullets and cleaned the barrel often. A jacked round after each box or two of lead also helped keep lead fouling down.

I sold the Glock (got tired of it going "click" instead of "bang" every 4th or 5th shot, even after the factory "service") and went to Para; from there to SVI. My platform of choice is now the 1911.

If I had to carry all day and concealment was not the issue, I'd consider a Glock. Relatively cheap, light, reliable, and a consistent trigger pull. I'd be happier w/a Springfield XD, though. I like a gun with a REAL safety. ;)
 
1. Don't buy a Glock - or any gun w/an unsupported chamber, for that matter;

By that reasoning, then, you should never buy any 1911 pistol without a fully ramped and modified barrel.

2. Replace the Glock barrel w/an aftermarket barrel;

Right on the money. If you are going to shoot lead bullets, you MUST change to a barrel with conventional rifling. Do NOT shoot lead out of a barrel with polygonal rifling. EVER.
 
Supported chambers

"By that reasoning, then, you should never buy any 1911 pistol without a fully ramped and modified barrel."

Works for me! None of my 1911's have unsupported chambers.

Notealso that the comment was specific to the topic ACTUALLY posted; i.e., Glocks in .40 S&W. As the .45 ACP cartridge has about half the pressure of the .40, you attempt to compare apples and pomegranates. ;)
 
How many USP KBs have there been? There aren't as many in service as Glocks, but still...

Polymer can work if you do it right.
 
I went through this same dilemma about a year ago. I ended up with a Kimber, but I sure miss that Glock.

Keep the faith, and keep your Glocks.

:)
 
Frame material is not directly relevant to the kB! issue with Glocks. The design of the Glock--sloppy chambers and the ability to fire out of battery--lends itself to kB!s with any ammo even very slightly out of spec (and probably at the upper limits of in spec). The benefit of a steel frame is that if you get a Glock-type kB!, the chances are you can slap a new magazine in and keep shooting (important if the kB! happens during a fight) versus boxing it up and shipping back to Smyrna.
 
The chambers are not sloppy, they're intentionally cut large to guarantee reliability.

I have yet to see anyone demonstrate that a Glock can fire out of battery. They have an interlock (as do all modern firearms) that prevents firing if not in lockup. Yes, you can move the slide a tiny bit to the rear-maybe 1mm or so--and still get the trigger to snap. However the hood of the barrel at that point is still essentially fully engaged with the slide--i.e. the gun is still in lockup. This can be tested very easily for those who have access to a Glock.

The TYPICAL kB! if there is such a thing results in a blown out mag and case and little else damage--so you can just slap another mag in and continue. Of course that's probably a bad idea unless you're in a life threatening situation.

The blown up guns that we see posted pics of from time to time are not really kB!s (blown cases) they are the result of some sort of catastrophic failure. A blown case that's not overcharged will not destroy the gun. It takes a really impressive screwup to turn a gun into shrapnel--a simple case failure at the feedramp is not sufficient for that kind of destruction.

The Glocks are not unusually susceptible to high pressure ammo. In fact the 9mm Glocks are rated to perform normally with ammo at 43,500psi which is FAR above the pressure of any 9mm pistol ammo on the market.

The problems with Glocks are certainly ammo related. Even Dean Speir admits that Glocks are "good and great" if you only shoot good quality factory ammo.

You make it sound like any slightly high pressure round is going to turn a Glock into tiny fragments. If that were true, I think that Dean Speir would not "own, shoot and sometimes carry" his Glock 21.

The problem with Glocks is really the problem with .40 S&W, the problem with people who won't read manuals, the problem with bad reloads and the problem of being overly successful. By the latter I mean that there are a TON of them out there so any problem that affects .40 S&W ammo is going to look like a Glock problem.

Example. A popular manufacturer puts out some ammo with weak cases in .40 S&W. Given that two out of three LEOs in the U.S. are carrying Glocks and half of those are .40 S&W Glocks--33% of U.S. LEO guns are going to have a chance of being affected by any of the likely very rare case failures that result. By comparison, the remaining 1/3 of LEOs NOT carrying Glocks are carrying a variety of brands in a variety of chamberings. Obviously in the LEO community the problem is going to be PERCEIVED as a Glock problem.

To my knowledge, so far the incidents with factory ammo have been attributable to the ammo (shocker!) or still have pending investigations.
 
So Glocks appear to kb! more than other brands? Well, let's see. How many HK USP pistols are out there compared to Glock? How many SIG's are out there compared to Glock? Gee, if there are 20 times more Glocks out there, then do the math.

I did a lot of early testing with the Glock 357sig model 31, including ramming bullets deep into the case with nothing but AA#9 powder holding the bullet up. Guess what, no kaboom, just perfect rounds being fired.

I've owned just about every .40 S&W Glock model and have never had a problem. Of course I'v always reloaded so I had excellent stuff. I didn't have to take chances with factory ammo. ;)

More recently, I've done some testing with the Glock 37 creating 230 grain .45gap loads in excess of 1000 fps. Guess what, no kaboom, just perfect rounds being fired.

I've been shooting Glocks since '92, and all the models I've tested and the several tens of thousands of rounds fired have worked fine without ever blowing up. What in hell am I doing wrong?

If the Glock kaboom forlklore is really true, then it would be so easy for a competing firearms company to prove it. Guess what, in all this time, nobody has ever done it!!! Give a lie a 24-hour head start, and it can become immortal. Then again, we have the same folklore about other pistol brands such as Sigs that'l rust if you look at em wrong. :cuss:

On the other hand, there have been known issues with some Glocks and lot numbers. And while I can't get mad at the Glock pistol in itself, I have generally been concerned about Glock management's method of handling some important issues in the past. On the other side of the scale, Sigarms management impresses me a great deal with their honesty about their products, both good and bad --- Well Done!
 
Last edited:
Painful threadstarter to read, due to structure. Frame has nothing to do with KB.
 
If the Glock kaboom forlklore is really true, then it would be so easy for a competing firearms company to prove it.
Of course, that is not true because competing firearms companies do not have access to the data.

On the other hand, Glock has a pretty good idea of how many different G2x models it has sold, it has a pretty good of how many have came to Smyrna for repair/replacement or have been reported to Smyrna but not returned for repair/replacment. Of course, there IS probably a fair number of which Smyrna is unaware that would require an estimate, but it should be fairly easy for Glock, Inc. (if they so desired) to say we have sold X number of G22s, of these Y number have been returned for repair/replacement, based on these numbers, the kB! rate for G22s is z per 1000. I really wonder why Glock has not put the "myth" to rest.
 
Glock KBs Glock KBs Glock KBs Glock KBs Glock KBs Glock KBs Glock KBs


This forum's favorite #1 numero uno topic. Forget the two billion similar threads in the archives, let's start yet another!!!


BOOOM!!! (undoubtedly the sound of a G23 exploding in someone's hands somewhere out there as we speak)
 
the kB! rate for G22s is z per 1000. I really wonder why Glock has not put the "myth" to rest.
Because they don't see it that way. Glock doesn't think in terms of "X percent of our .40 cal guns are failing". They have repeatedly stated that their design is not faulty and therefore kB!s are not a Glock issue. They see it as an ammo failure--"X percent of .40 cal rounds on the market will kB! a pistol." Or even more pointedly--"ammo problems and people who shoot poor quality ammo are giving our guns a bad name."

There are certainly design issues in the .40 cal Glocks that contribute (to a small extent) to this issue. There are also quirks of the .40 cal round that contribute as well.

Glock could probably change their design and make their guns a bit more kB! proof, but at some cost to reliability, and also they would probably have to drop the polygonal rifling in the .40 cal guns. They're not willing to drop either of those features and so instead they warn users via the manual to only use high-quality factory ammo. Basically the same thing that Dean Speir says on his website--"Glocks are ... great. Jus' don't shoot reloads..."

On the whole, though, I think that it's far more accurate to blame the ammo than the gun. Most kB!s are pretty cut and dried--most involve reloads or really poor quality ammo. There have been some kB!s with factory ammo--some of which resulted in Federal redesigning the case on their .40 ammo. Again the finger points at the ammo more than the gun.

Ruger went the other way and made their guns virtually kB! proof. As a result people complain about the weight and clunkiness of even the polymer Rugers. Also the tighter chambers do mean that the guns will choke a bit more often than some other designs. Not coincidentally, Ruger enjoys a relatively small chunk of the LE market even though their guns are generally priced very close to Glock products.

It's all a trade off. Ruger picked one end, Glock the other. Both suffer a bit for their stance.

BTW, I'm willing to bet that time is going to prove the new more svelte Ruger designs a bit less indestructible than their forbears.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top