Mike1234567
member
Saiga 12: Defensive rounds in one mag, less than lethal in another, flares in another, birdshot in another... 
The Kel-Tec KSG got an upgrade!
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Purgatory
Member
Nothin against the Saiga 12 at all, Mike, but you have to admit:
If you're loaded up with an unwanted round in the chamber and a full mag of same and desire to change your round-type quickly, taking the time to grab a new mag from wherever it's secured and insert it after dropping the loaded one (assuming it drops free at the push of the mag release) and then racking the bolt would take slightly longer than:
simply flipping a switch and pumping the KSG once.
It's close, but having the two optional rounds loaded integrally in the firearm is hard to beat.
But I'd love to have a Saiga 12, don't get me wrong.
Mike1234567
member
^^^ I concede to all of your points. Like I said, I'll buy a KSG at a reasonable price... just not for $700+.
Andrew Wyatt
Member
the Saiga is a semi-auto.
the saiga has a proven tack record.
you can reload a saiga from empty about five times faster than a KSG.
the saiga has a proven tack record.
you can reload a saiga from empty about five times faster than a KSG.
Purgatory
Member
Agreed. I probably wouldn't buy one at that price.
Agreed. In a combat situation, a fully functioning/non-jamming Saiga would certainly come out on top.
But compared to other 'pump' shotguns, KSG has an advantage for specific applications.
Saiga 12 = Great automatic, mag-fed shotgun. Love to have/play with one.
Kel-Tec KSG = Interesting new innovative design. Enjoying contemplating the possible applications.
OP:
wally
Member
I sure hope they know how to fix mine!
I'm intrigued by the idea, my P3AT had to go back but they fixed it, my PF9 and SU-16C haven't given any problems. What happens with my RFB will largely decide if I eventually get one or not.
My Saiga with a 20 round MD Arms drum is fun but rather unwieldy for anything beyond mowing down steel plates or 2-liter plastic bottles.
The KSG is a cool solution to the "I don't have enough rounds" problem...
Handguns solved this with Magazines.
Rifles Solved this with magazines.
Saiga Solved this with Magazines.
The point is, the future is not an 1894 Winchester 30-30 with two tubes, it's an AR-15 with a 30rd magazine
Magazines will always be better for capacity in a compact setup than Tubes.
Handguns solved this with Magazines.
Rifles Solved this with magazines.
Saiga Solved this with Magazines.
The point is, the future is not an 1894 Winchester 30-30 with two tubes, it's an AR-15 with a 30rd magazine
Magazines will always be better for capacity in a compact setup than Tubes.
Eh, it's more than that. It's also a solution to the "I want 00 buck wait no I want a slug wait no I want 00 buck again" problem.
I suspect it's going to feel heavy and imbalanced but we'll see.
Andrew Wyatt
Member
is that really a problem?
I think it would be the Ultimate CA HD Shotgun, just like I think the VZ-58 is the Ultimate CA rifle due to it's open top receiverPrecision said:
I think folks tried the bull pup design with the single tube and the main complaint was, "why doesn't carry more rounds when there is plenty of room for the other tube"...but then I was a big fan of the Neostead.
The shotgun market is very competitive and it is hard to compete with current designs which have long ago amortized their development cost. I think the KSG found a nice niche to fill where they can be competitive
Zundfolge
Member
Until they "upgrade" it to a semi auto, I'm not all that interested.
I'm sure someone out there is working on a Saiga 12 bullpup kit (or maybe you can already take one of the many bullpup AK kits and make it work) EDIT oh, forgot about this which is cool looking but may be vaporware.
Or something like that Mossberg 500 bullpup kit modified to fit a Mossberg 900 ... with an Xrail magazine system.
Of course then there's this thing (have no idea if its any good or not)
I'm sure someone out there is working on a Saiga 12 bullpup kit (or maybe you can already take one of the many bullpup AK kits and make it work) EDIT oh, forgot about this which is cool looking but may be vaporware.
Or something like that Mossberg 500 bullpup kit modified to fit a Mossberg 900 ... with an Xrail magazine system.
Of course then there's this thing (have no idea if its any good or not)
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My understanding is that they explored the semi-auto option and found the pump-action model provided a larger and less complicated potential market
wally
Member
Also a pump can shoot anything. Saigas have enough ammo sensitivity there are many makers of after market gas regulators to offer more "settings". I put one in mine so I can shoot the cheap "promo" dove loads at our plate rack.
FIVETWOSEVEN
Member
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Why would you need 7 signal rounds loaded with a defensive gun? Load a signal if you need it.
The problem with all semi-auto shotguns, is that the ammo variety is so large, and differences in load, powder, excess gas, etc. changes from brand to brand of the same type of ammo (Say 2 3/4" #8 shot). I can shoot 2 3/4" bulk bird shot and anything with more payload/powder out of my Saiga without changing the gas settings. BUT I can't shoot 2 3/4" reduced recoil slug/buck because the powder charge is so light there isn't enough gas to cycle the action.
Rifle ammo is much more consistent across size, powder charge, projectile, etc. Which makes semi-auto rifles easier to manufacture to run well with factory ammo.
Rifle ammo is much more consistent across size, powder charge, projectile, etc. Which makes semi-auto rifles easier to manufacture to run well with factory ammo.
Andrew Wyatt
Member
Then shoot the more commonly available full power stuff.
just because you can use fifteen different kinds of ammo doesn't mean you should.
You can cover everything you need to do with a shotgun at least marginally well if you stick with one type of birdshot, one type of buckshot and one type of slug, and really, the buckshot is optional.
Mike1234567
member
Saigas have adjustable gas plugs. The aftermarket plugs allow cycling of just about any ammo available. You just need to know what setting works best with a given ammo. It only takes a few seconds to adjust the plug.
PT92
Member
Personally I prefer a tactical semi but I would like to pick-up one of these baby's just for collective/fun purposes.
Currently my go-to tacticals are either my Saiga 12 or 1187-P.
Yet I feel quite comfortable with my Mossberg 500 as well (but I trained with lots of rounds to make sure I never encountered any short-stroke issues).
-Cheers
Currently my go-to tacticals are either my Saiga 12 or 1187-P.
Yet I feel quite comfortable with my Mossberg 500 as well (but I trained with lots of rounds to make sure I never encountered any short-stroke issues).
-Cheers
Andrew and Mike,
Guys, chill. I have 6 Saigas (Rifles and shotguns) I'm just stating that SEMI AUTO SHOTGUNS (All of them. Berrettas to Benelli's to Saigas to Winchesters) have issues with certain types of ammo and that it's different for each brand and each gun within a brand.
That being said, my Saiga is more reliable over a wider range of ammunition than most of the other Semi-Autos I've competed against in shoots.
I was just stating that they probably chose a PUMP KSG instead of a Semi-Auto because there was very little advantage to trying to introduce a new shotgun design while dealing with the inherent difficulty in making Semi-auto SHOTGUNS reliable over a wide range of ammunition choices....
Not all 2 3/4" is created equal, and some "High-Brass" 2 3/4" can have less cycling ability than the lowbrass value pack stuff.
I was merely talking about the vast differences in manufacturing between Shotgun shells that doesn't exist in the rifle world, thus Semi-Auto rifles are EASIER to produce than reliable Semi-Auto Shotguns, even given the adjustable gas plugs etc...
Go to Saiga-12.com and search my posts before you respond to me with that Down-talking about aftermarket plugs etc. as if I don't know anything about the S-12.
Guys, chill. I have 6 Saigas (Rifles and shotguns) I'm just stating that SEMI AUTO SHOTGUNS (All of them. Berrettas to Benelli's to Saigas to Winchesters) have issues with certain types of ammo and that it's different for each brand and each gun within a brand.
That being said, my Saiga is more reliable over a wider range of ammunition than most of the other Semi-Autos I've competed against in shoots.
I was just stating that they probably chose a PUMP KSG instead of a Semi-Auto because there was very little advantage to trying to introduce a new shotgun design while dealing with the inherent difficulty in making Semi-auto SHOTGUNS reliable over a wide range of ammunition choices....
Not all 2 3/4" is created equal, and some "High-Brass" 2 3/4" can have less cycling ability than the lowbrass value pack stuff.
I was merely talking about the vast differences in manufacturing between Shotgun shells that doesn't exist in the rifle world, thus Semi-Auto rifles are EASIER to produce than reliable Semi-Auto Shotguns, even given the adjustable gas plugs etc...
Go to Saiga-12.com and search my posts before you respond to me with that Down-talking about aftermarket plugs etc. as if I don't know anything about the S-12.
Mike1234567
member
Down-talking? That wasn't my intention at all. I'm sorry if I worded my post poorly.
That wasn't my intention at all. I'm sorry if I worded my post poorly.PT92
Member
For myself, I never have purchased a TACTICAL shotgun with the intent of firing anything other than tactical ammo. So the reliability of cycling bird-shot through them has never been a concern--I have regular non-tactical shotguns for trap etc.
But that's just me.
-Cheers
But that's just me.
-Cheers
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