The latest from Massad Ayoob

[basicblur]

The latest Lock N Load Podcast has an extensive interview with Massad Ayoob.

You can right click and “Save As” the mp3 file at the link below – save it to your computer or ? and listen at your leisure.

He covers a number of legal topics and scenarios he’s had to help defend in court, such as shooting someone in the back and light triggers.

Tue, 16 February 2016
Lock N Load with Bill Frady Ep 850 Hr 3
Conversation with the one and only Massad Ayoob.
http://gunownersofamericaradio.libsyn.com/

You may also want to read the Best of The Ayoob Files.
I think you can read at least 14 of his “Best of” files at the link below (maybe more?).

I heard him briefly discuss Tim Gramins on the above Lock N Load Podcast.
Tim Gramins is an LEO that now carries a LOT of backup ammo (and has gone from 45 ACP to 9mm so he can carry more) – he now does so because in his gunfight, he put 17 rounds of 45ACP into the BG, and the BG did NOT stop until round #17 went thru the old off switch in the BG’s brain.

Of the 17 rounds he fired, 3 were in the BG’s head, but it was not until the 3rd round in the head (and round #17 in his body) that the BG realized he was DRT.

So much for the Hollywood stereotype of hitting the BG with one round and having him fly backwards thru 3 rooms and a plate glass window!

https://americanhandgunner.com/category/the-ayoob-files/

 

[Tirod]

Shot placement is the lesson I see in this story. 17 rounds to finally stop the BG? My training suggested two COM, two pelvic girdle, and the remaining at the head. I'm sure I wasn't there to see the situation, but it would seem the BG should have been hit by more than three shots in the head a lot earlier than #17. More like numbers 5,6,7,8,9 ...

We're under no obligation to shoot COM to "stop," and a central nervous system hit should be a high priority choice after four rounds to disrupt breathing, vascular efficiency, and lower torso mobility. It's harder to do but the effort has an increased ability to disrupt further hostility.

I believe the team that entered a Pakistani safehouse to dispatch a high level terrorist used that in their rules of engagement.

Yes, there are things to consider in the brief description given us by the OP, and the LEO may be making a good choice for him, but it's not necessarily our best choice given that we don't run toward a gunfight. The example of the Utah Walmart CCW comes to mind, gunned down from behind. My obligation is to continue to support my family, not be a dead hero.

Be careful what you take away from "lessons learned" when the specific conditions and ROE are not applicable to our situation.

 

[basicblur]

but it would seem the BG should have been hit by more than three shots in the head a lot earlier than #17. More like numbers 5,6,7,8,9 ...

Easy to second guess while we're seated at the keyboard.

If you'll read the story, you may find it to be a case of "theoretical" training running smack into the real world.

As Mike Tyson sez...everyone has a plan (training) until they're punched in the mouth (real world).

 

[taliv]

fwiw, there seem to be some discrepancies in the various reports of that incident, but iirc, one report said the first 13 of those shots were from inside his vehicle firing out through glass.

it also said he fired 33 times and got 14 hits, 6 of which were in supposedly fatal areas.
Using my captain crunch media decoder ring, my suspicion is the last 3 of those were in the head, and the first ones were through glass, which severely limited their effectiveness.

 

[Ignition Override]

A Memphis LEO who works part-time in a private business told me about his close call.

He hit a charging pit bull with at least 12 rds. of .45 jhp before the dog stopped.
In the photos, his hand clearly has tiny red dots of blood spatter, and the dead dog in the photos looks like a pit bull.

 

[ford8nr]

Except for more capacity, I don't see how a 9mm would have been better in any of these cases. When I shoot our clubs 3 gun shoot, I shoot worse with my 9 knowing I have more rounds. I definitely take more care for more hits with my 1911. More hits in the same time with a bigger bore, sounds like a win to me.

 

[TarDevil]

When I shoot our clubs 3 gun shoot, I shoot worse with my 9 knowing I have more rounds. I definitely take more care for more hits with my 1911.

I strive for accuracy with all my guns.

 

[W.E.G.]

An animal does not know, or care, that it has been shot.

All the animal cares about is whatever was on the animal's mind before the guns came out.

 

[ford8nr]

I strive for accuracy with all my guns

As do I
But under the heat of compitition the thought of fewer rounds force me to be more consistant. A shooting flaw of mine.
Or it just might be the 1911 platform that allows me to be better.

 

[psyopspec]

@ Texreckshooter

Anyone ever heard that Mr. Ayoob has hurt good cases as often as he has helped?

No. But I have heard that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and see no reason that anonymous internet insinuations should be held in different regard.

If you have something to say, out with it.

 

[old lady new shooter]

First, it's Ayoob. Second, if you are referring to Ayoob's expert witness testimony for the defense in court cases involving shooting by citizens or LEO, he often testifies at no cost to the defendant. To the best of my knowledge, his testimony has always been useful to the defendant, so no I have not heard anything about what you are referring to.

Massad Ayoob is one of the most respected firearms trainers in the country and is a member of this forum. He has real life experience as a police officer on the street and as a successful competitor in handgun competitions. If you have documented evidence of his testimony "hurting" good cases, please post a reference. Without documentation, I find your implication disturbing and disrespectful.

This ^^^^

 

[old lady new shooter]

An animal does not know, or care, that it has been shot.

All the animal cares about is whatever was on the animal's mind before the guns came out.

Exactly. And that gives an attacking animal a big advantage.

 

[MEHavey]

Shot placement is the lesson I see in this story. 17 rounds to finally stop the BG?
My training suggested two COM, two pelvic girdle, and the remaining at the head.
I'm sure I wasn't there to see the situation, but it would seem the BG should have
been hit by more than three shots in the head a lot earlier than #17.

Only one question....

Ever been in a meeting-engagement firefight ?

 

[ACP]

Thanks for the link.

I hope everyone reads it.

"Raymond Maddox did not survive. Autopsy showed he had been hit by 17 of Gramins’ 230-gr. Speer Gold Dot .45 hollowpoints. Some had hit extremities, including upper limbs as the officer’s bullets tracked up the gunman’s arms while he was firing at the cop. But Maddox had also been hit in one kidney, both lungs … and the heart. All three of Gramins’ last carefully braced, precisely aimed shots had indeed hit the head, but two had smashed into his face and only the last had pierced the brain and ended the fight."

"Reconstruction will show from the first shot of the gunfight to the last, 56 seconds have elapsed. During this time 54 pistol shots have been fired, 33 from Gramins’ GLOCK .45, and 21 by Maddox from two pistols."

 

[45_auto]

I'm sure I wasn't there to see the situation, but it would seem the BG should have been hit by more than three shots in the head a lot earlier than #17. More like numbers 5,6,7,8,9 ...

You seriously think that you could make consistent head shots on someone running towards you and shooting at you while you're sitting behind the steering wheel returning fire through the windshield of your car?

You must be like a legend in your own mind. Someone has been spending too little time at the IPSC or IDPA Nationals (you would easily win them all with your shooting abilities) and too much time sitting on the couch watching "Rambo" movies .....

 

[Pietro Beretta]

Tim fired 33 rounds, 17 connected. He carried 47 rounds of .45 on him. He now carries 145 rounds and switched to 9mm.

I can see how after this he would want more in the mag before needing to reload. Biggest cap for .45 is what, 14+1? You can 17+1 in a 9.

Additionally, 9+P loads are going to be better barrier penetrators and keep velocity - like when you need to shoot through glass. (A reason I DONT use critical duty in my home sd gun, I live in an apt - this is why I prefer the 45 tfor my home sd gun)

 

[BSA1]

If you have documented evidence of his testimony "hurting" good cases, please post a reference. Without documentation, I find your implication disturbing and disrespectful.

Well I don't know why you think I have to produce "documentation" to justify my negative opinion of Mr. Ayoob.

He testified in a murder case in Wichita, Kansas on the behalf of the defendant.

In the case two unarmed teenage youths were attempting to break into the defendant's car that was parked in the front driveway of the defendants home.

The defendant got his handgun and fired two rounds from inside the kitchen of his home through a kitchen window striking and killing one of car thieves.

Part of the defendant's defense was he was not able to see clearly because he wasn't wearing his glasses.

The defendant was found not guilty of murder. The case was well covered by the media in Wichita and there was a photograph of a broadly smiling Ayoob standing next to the defense attorney was published.

I don't know how much the fact the defendant vehicle was a luxury car and he lived in a expensive neighborhood played in the case. Jury selection was certainly the key. As far as I am concerned Mr. Ayoob was simply a another expert witness that was very well paid to present facts in the case in a way to be favorable for the defense.

p.s. I wonder why we have never read about this case in his Ayoob File articles?

 

[SHOOT1SAM]

^^^ Let's see; he was a witness FOR the defense..AND the defendant was acquitted...still waiting for you to show us where Mas "hurt" a good case.

Sam

 

[MEHavey]

[Ayoob] testified in a murder case in Wichita, Kansas on the behalf of the defendant.
In the case two unarmed teenage youths were attempting to break into the defendant's car....

Can you give us a webcite link to that case/trial/testimony please ?
I'd like to see Paul Harvey's Rest-of-the-Story.

 

[george burns]

If you simply ask him, he will respond to you. He is very reachable and usually eager to help forum members. I have emailed him before and found him to be nothing but nice, he even asked me to post my question, or story "I forget now", on Backwoods. So rather than guess what he may or may not have said, I would just PM or ask in open forum, I am fairly certain, "unless it's an ongoing case" that he would be happy to enlighten you.
We all heard the story in Nam, about emptying a full mag into a charging Boar, and it stopping a foot away from the intended victim. I would hesitate to believe most of these stories if not documented, or coming from a reliable personal source.

 

[trentcwwilson]

Tim fired 33 rounds, 17 connected. He carried 47 rounds of .45 on him. He now carries 145 rounds and switched to 9mm.

I can see how after this he would want more in the mag before needing to reload. Biggest cap for .45 is what, 14+1? You can 17+1 in a 9.

Additionally, 9+P loads are going to be better barrier penetrators and keep velocity - like when you need to shoot through glass. (A reason I DONT use critical duty in my home sd gun, I live in an apt - this is why I prefer the 45 tfor my home sd gun)

This is why the first round in all my defensive guns (minus the shotgun) is a Lehigh xtreme penetrator.

 

[BLB68]

Well I don't know why you think I have to produce "documentation" to justify my negative opinion of Mr. Ayoob.

He was calling out Texreckshooter. Are you saying you're Texreckshooter? Just trying to figure out who's who.

 

[Al Thompson]

Note to all: Mas Ayoob is a member here. Misspelling his name results in posts getting edited or disappearing.

Keep it on track...

 

[BSA1]

Can you give us a webcite link to that case/trial/testimony please ?

Search the records of The Wichita Eagle or The Wichita Eagle Beacon or The Wichita Eagle and Beacon newspaper. They changed ownership and name to The Wichita Eagle somewhere along the line.

It was also reported on by the three TV stations as it was a major case of a homeowner shooting and killing a unarmed car thief. KAKE TV 10 and KSN TV 3. Can't think of channel 12 name.

This case is old. Maybe 20 +/- years. Could be 25 years ago. Sorry time has way of slipping away.

I too would like to know "the rest of the story" as to what led the jury to return a not guilty verdict. The impression of the defendant was he was financially well off so he could afford a good defense team. (Maybe not after the case and he had to pay his attorney and expert witness fees).

 

[trentcwwilson]

Search the records of The Wichita Eagle or The Wichita Eagle Beacon or The Wichita Eagle and Beacon newspaper. They changed ownership and name to The Wichita Eagle somewhere along the line.

It was also reported on by the three TV stations as it was a major case of a homeowner shooting and killing a unarmed car thief. KAKE TV 10 and KSN TV 3. Can't think of channel 12 name.

This case is old. Maybe 20 +/- years. Could be 25 years ago. Sorry time has way of slipping away.

I too would like to know "the rest of the story" as to what led the jury to return a not guilty verdict. The impression of the defendant was he was financially well off so he could afford a good defense team. (Maybe not after the case and he had to pay his attorney and expert witness fees).

Seems to me the shooter was in the right. In Tenneseee, we have a right to defend ourselves as well as our property, whether or not the person is armed. Now, shooting a fleeing person is a different story.