BG taking 17 rounds before going down

[peacebutready]

In a recent thread, called "The Latest from Massad Ayoob" a BG took 17 rounds before going down. A gentleman opined below:

Shot placement is the lesson I see in this story. 17 rounds to finally stop the BG? My training suggested two COM, two pelvic girdle, and the remaining at the head. I'm sure I wasn't there to see the situation, but it would seem the BG should have been hit by more than three shots in the head a lot earlier than #17. More like numbers 5,6,7,8,9 ...

I see another possible lesson to the story. Perhaps the ammo used didn't penetrate enough? I'm increasingly getting the feeling that could be the case based on some stories I heard.

The firearm used in the famous Matix/Platt tragedy was a 9mm loaded with 115 grain h.p.'s. IIRC, the bullet stopped an inch before one BG's heart. If 147 grain ammo was used, could that have meant another inch of penetration? If so, maybe they never would have explored the 10mm.

 

[Panzerschwein]

And those were Speer Gold Dot rounds... AND in .45 ACP!!!

 

[peacebutready]

And those were Speer Gold Dot rounds... AND in .45 ACP!!!

But how many grains?!

 

[Onward Allusion]

AND in .45 ACP!!!

Say it ain't so! The BG should have expired just at the sight of the gun in 45 ACP.

On a more serious note, kinda goes to show that handgun cartridges are pretty dang wimpy compared to say a 5.56 or even a 7.62x39.

 

[jmr40]

There have been cases of multiple hits from 7.62 rounds and people still staying on their feet. The mental status of the person being shot has a lot to do with it. Most people fall down and stop being aggressive when hit, others keep moving until all the blood drains out. Some just refuse to die no matter what you hit them with.

 

[basicblur]

Yeah...I started that thread which got closed because folks couldn't play nice?

I was just going to post the latest from Ayoob where he interviews George Zimmerman at the ProArms Podcast site at http://proarmspodcast.com/

If you'll scroll down the page at the link above, you'll see links to the 17 shot story - will carry you to a couple of Police One articles on the incident as well as the original podcast covering it.

If the first Police One link doesn't work for you, try this one:
https://www.policeone.com/police-he...ne-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job/

 

[Archie]

Odd.

This occurred in 2008 according to the referenced website. Old news, in other words.

The referenced report indicate the officer fired fifty-four rounds total, making a total of 17 hits. Just better than a one in three hit rate. That is typical of police agencies, but I find it rather unimpressive. The hits made were largely ineffective.

The effective hits were the studied shots made by the officer in the episode.

So the officer - afterward - decided he'd rather have more rounds to fire without effect and feels he solved his poor shooting problem. I do not agree.

 

[CDW4ME]

17 rounds placed center mass or anywhere on body?
Did the 45 Gold Dots expand?

Excluding a hit to the CNS, one should expect their attacker to have up to 10 seconds of voluntary hostile action, even after being hit in both lungs.

 

[basicblur]

So the officer - afterward - decided he'd rather have more rounds to fire without effect and feels he solved his poor shooting problem.

I guess one has to define "poor shooting" and "without effect".

If someone comes at you firing while you're seated in your vehicle (and buckled in), waddya going to do?

Do you wait until you can establish a "proper" firing position, focus on the front sight, then sqeeeeeeeeze the trigger?

Nah...you're probably going to be slinging rounds back at the BG (thru the windshield) as occifer Gramins did in order to put the BG on the defensive and allow yourself to get out of your trap and get to cover.

Maybe then you can slow things down a bit and concentrate a bit more on putting rounds in the target...

 

[mljdeckard]

There are NO guarantees. But there ARE degrees of likelihood.

 

[Hookeye]

My old history teacher in HS blasted a Japanese solider running across a clearing with a BAR. He made it all the way across then flipped.

The flip due to a foot blown off. Multiple rounds had through the body before the stop.

Dunno if he had 17 hits or not.

 

[Panzerschwein]

But how many grains?!

Several grains, numerous in fact.

 

[Deaf Smith]

There are NO guarantees. But there ARE degrees of likelihood

Correct.

That is why you use the most powerful handgun you can control and conceal. No, it's not 100 percent but it gives the best odds. There are documented cases of BGs taking multiple 12 gauge hits and still standing so nothing you can realistically pack is 100 percent.

But you can increase the odds it will stop them.

Deaf

 

[ACP]

re-read the story. there were multiple hits to extremeties (an arm) and the kidneys, etc.

it took three carefully aimed shots to the head (face and forehead), braced behind a tree, to end it.

the officer even expressed dismay when his com shots had no apparent effect.

 

[trentcwwilson]

I agree with the poor shooting comment. Yes, it was life or death. Think back to your carry class. Where we you instructed to hit, anything inside the 7 ring? I've read many a police report and heard many stories. I dislike the fact that he shied away from 45. His loss. Not saying initial shot should have been between the eyes either. I have a sneaking suspicion that this guy had to requalify.

 

[C0untZer0]

The firearm used in the famous Matix/Platt tragedy was a 9mm loaded with 115 grain h.p.'s. IIRC, the bullet stopped an inch before one BG's heart. If 147 grain ammo was used, could that have meant another inch of penetration? If so, maybe they never would have explored the 10mm.

The bullet that a coroner determined to be the primary cause of Michael Platt's death in the 1986 Miami shootout - was the 9mm Silvertip fired by agent Jerry Dove.

Yes, the much-maligned 9mm Silvertip, created a wound in Michael Lee Platt that the coroner determined Platt wouldn't have survived even if he'd received immediate medical attention.

The issue with the 9mm round in the 1986 Miami Shootout was not an issue of bullet weight or caliber, a failure of the bullet or a failed bullet design. The issue was that of proper requirements.

The Winchester Silvertip performed the way it was designed, the primary requirement that it was supposed to meet was to not over-penetrate, and the Silvertip didn't over-penetrate.

The main failure in that situation is that the agents were equipped with a bullet designed primarily not to over penetrate when they needed bullets which penetrated 12" - 14" through various barriers (criteria the FBI later developed).

If Jerry Dove had been shooting FMJ Michael Platt would have died instantly. But the FBI didn't want their agents to have 9mm FMJ has was evidenced by the fact that they issued them Winchester Silvertips.

 

[peacebutready]

Excluding a hit to the CNS, one should expect their attacker to have up to 10 seconds of voluntary hostile action, even after being hit in both lungs.

How 'bout a hit in one lung and through the heart?

How 'bout a hit in both lungs and the heart.

 

[strambo]

Did any of the "shot placement" Monday morning QBs read the article carefully? Notice where it said the BG was hit in the heart? With a .45 acp Gold Dot? It doesn't get any better than that for torso shot placement, and that round didn't stop the attacker either.

It is all well and good to think you will have better shot placement than this officer, but unless you have had professional force on force training, you are probably way overestimating your abilities to get hits under life and death stress (and simunition isn't even life or death stress).

What you can do on a square range doesn't mean jack squat. And a heart shot (perfect torso shot placement) isn't a guarantee of anything except they will probably die at some point, but that could easily be after they kill you first. You better be prepared to fight until it's over and if you run out of bullets then transition to H2H or rock to the head. I wouldnt rely on any shoot them in the hip magic formula either, you'll likely just make the pelvis have a hole, it will still support weight and that's if you even hit it.

Get off the X, place shots in the upper chest and head (as best you can), keep moving and shoot them to the ground (beat them to the ground if necessary).

 

[peacebutready]

The issue with the 9mm round in the 1986 Miami Shootout was not an issue of bullet weight or caliber, a failure of the bullet or a failed bullet design. The issue was that of proper requirements.

The Winchester Silvertip performed the way it was designed, the primary requirement that it was supposed to meet was to not over-penetrate, and the Silvertip didn't over-penetrate.

The main failure in that situation is that the agents were equipped with a bullet designed primarily not to over penetrate when they needed bullets which penetrated 12" - 14" through various barriers (criteria the FBI later developed).

If Jerry Dove had been shooting FMJ Michael Platt would have died instantly. But the FBI didn't want their agents to have 9mm FMJ has was evidenced by the fact that they issued them Winchester Silvertips.

I don't recall if they had 147 grain silvertips back then but if they did or there was another 147 grainer available, would that would have penetrated an extra inch? I say yes. If I'm right, they may never have looked at the 10mm.

Interesting comment about the FMJ.

 

[peacebutready]

Did any of the "shot placement" Monday morning QBs read the article carefully? Notice where it said the BG was hit in the heart? With a .45 acp Gold Dot? It doesn't get any better than that for torso shot placement, and that round didn't stop the attacker either.

I didn't read it but a hit in the heart is vague. Did it just touch the heart or did it go through the heart? There's a difference.

 

[trentcwwilson]

Did any of the "shot placement" Monday morning QBs read the article carefully? Notice where it said the BG was hit in the heart? With a .45 acp Gold Dot? It doesn't get any better than that for torso shot placement, and that round didn't stop the attacker either.

It is all well and good to think you will have better shot placement than this officer, but unless you have had professional force on force training, you are probably way overestimating your abilities to get hits under life and death stress (and simunition isn't even life or death stress).

What you can do on a square range doesn't mean jack squat. And a heart shot (perfect torso shot placement) isn't a guarantee of anything except they will probably die at some point, but that could easily be after they kill you first. You better be prepared to fight until it's over and if you run out of bullets then transition to H2H or rock to the head. I wouldnt rely on any shoot them in the hip magic formula either, you'll likely just make the pelvis have a hole, it will still support weight and that's if you even hit it.

Get off the X, place shots in the upper chest and head (as best you can), keep moving and shoot them to the ground (beat them to the ground if necessary).

I commend you on STRONGLY underestimating my experience. 5 years law enforcement and so far 10 more with Loomis. I have on more than one occasion had to choose my life or his. There is no armchair cop chiming on on this profile. I commend this man on his duty and his action. But the statement stands as is, shot placement should have been better. If he's hitting limbs, you need practice. And a heart shot? Remember this was under duress. That was not a placed shot therefor rendering your placement argument null and void. And apparently there was better placement. Was it not the shot to the coconut that stopped him?

 

[gspn]

Get off the X, place shots in the upper chest and head (as best you can), keep moving and shoot them to the ground (beat them to the ground if necessary).

Solid advice.

 

[old lady new shooter]

Notice where it said the BG was hit in the heart? With a .45 acp Gold Dot? It doesn't get any better than that for torso shot placement, and that round didn't stop the attacker either. <...> a heart shot (perfect torso shot placement) isn't a guarantee of anything except they will probably die at some point, but that could easily be after they kill you first.

To me this is one of the scariest issues about self-defense, I remember stories from a few years back about guys on PCP who just kept coming. A few nights ago some guy was running down my street making a noise that didn't even sound human, kind of a howling, I immediately thought oh no, he must be on some kind of drug, a guy like that could be much more dangerous than an "ordinary" criminal looking for a house to rob. Was very relieved to hear police helicopters a few moments later, but wow.

 

[trentcwwilson]

To me this is one of the scariest issues about self-defense, I remember stories from a few years back about guys on PCP who just kept coming. A few nights ago some guy was running down my street making a noise that didn't even sound human, kind of a howling, I immediately thought oh no, he must be on some kind of drug, a guy like that could be much more dangerous than an "ordinary" criminal looking for a house to rob. Was very relieved to hear police helicopters a few moments later, but wow.

Sounds like another bath salts incident. I see some weird things where I live but oh my..

 

[BLB68]

. If he's hitting limbs, you need practice.

Limbs can easily get in the way of good COM hits.