BG taking 17 rounds before going down

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Limbs can easily get in the way of good COM hits.
As if he was defending himself? Only way hands could get in the way is if he was walking like Frankenstein or trying to deflect the bullets ninja style. Before we go further, did the perp have a weapon? Hands do not count.
 
As if he was defending himself? Only way hands could get in the way is if he was walking like Frankenstein or trying to deflect the bullets ninja style. Before we go further, did the perp have a weapon? Hands do not count.

Did you read the article you've been commenting on in two threads?
 
Even when the BG is hit in a vital area it doesn't mean he or she is going down right away.

About 15 years ago I saw a video of a bank robbery. The BG was getting foggy and started shooting randomly to get the tellers to hurry up. A off duty cop was in the bank and when the BG started shooting he got up from the floor, the BG turned, the cop shot one round and for whatever reason his gun jammed. The cop charged the BG and grabbed the BG's gun and they started fighting for the gun. They danced around for about 30 seconds. The cop got the gun away from the BG and the BG ran away. He made it about 100 yds across the parking lot and dropped dead. The shot the cop made went right through the BG's heart. He still managged to fight for 30 seconds and run 100 yds.

In another instance a Federal agent was walking down the stairs to the subway at 42nd and 6th in NYC. A guy grabbed him from behind, put a knife at the agent's back, and demanded his wallet. The agent pulled a Walther TPH 22 out, reached around his chest pointing the gun at the BG, and fired one shot. The BG pushed the agent down the stairs and ran. He ran on 42nd to 5th Avenue and dropped dead in front of the library. The shot the agent fired went into the BG's armpit and lodged in his heart.

In both cases the BG still had the ability to do damage before he died. Autopsies showed no drugs in either BG.

Too many people are critical about the marksmanship of LEOs in gun fights and the number of rounds they fire. These people obviously have never been in a gun fight. NYPD keeps detailed statistics on shooting incidents. These stats show no correlation between how you shoot on a range and how one does in a gun fight. I agree with Jeff Cooper who believed gun fighting is 5% shooting skill and 95% mental.
 
There are no guarantees as to how people tolerate injuries in general. When people start talking about certainities, I like to remind them that, decades ago, we had a woman fall from 33.000 feet without a parachute and live (okay, in the snow, but, still), and walk on her own two feet after months of recovery. That's a bit more energetic impact then any gun ;)

Even if something works 99.99% of the time, one out of ten thousand will end up in a real sucky situation, and with the law of big numbers being what it is, this one in ten thousand will happen to someone somewhere.
 
Even when the BG is hit in a vital area it doesn't mean he or she is going down right away.
I think I may have already posted this once before, but in one of the recent one-on-one terror attacks in Israel, the terrorist first drove his car onto the sidewalk to run over his selected victim, then jumped out of the car and started stabbing him. An armed citizen ran over and shot the terrorist, who went down, but got up again a few seconds later. The citizen shot him again, this time from only about 5 feet away, he went down again, and then got up a second time and tried to run away. (By that point police had arrived and they grabbed him.)
 
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This occurred in 2008 according to the referenced website. Old news, in other words.

The referenced report indicate the officer fired fifty-four rounds total, making a total of 17 hits. Just better than a one in three hit rate. That is typical of police agencies, but I find it rather unimpressive. The hits made were largely ineffective.

The effective hits were the studied shots made by the officer in the episode.

So the officer - afterward - decided he'd rather have more rounds to fire without effect and feels he solved his poor shooting problem. I do not agree.

Private citizens don't do any better than LEO's when it comes to hit %.

And 1/3 is above average.

Apparently two way ranges where both parties are shooting changes things vs standing on a range

Did any of the "shot placement" Monday morning QBs read the article carefully? Notice where it said the BG was hit in the heart? With a .45 acp Gold Dot? It doesn't get any better than that for torso shot placement, and that round didn't stop the attacker either.

Didn't you know the internet is full of the most highly trained, experience, and effective gunfighters to have ever lived? They would need only 2 rounds and 3 seconds to end any attack with a shot between the eyes, no matter the situation. Only guys who can't shoot aim for COM.
 
I commend you on STRONGLY underestimating my experience. 5 years law enforcement and so far 10 more with Loomis. I have on more than one occasion had to choose my life or his. There is no armchair cop chiming on on this profile. I commend this man on his duty and his action. But the statement stands as is, shot placement should have been better. If he's hitting limbs, you need practice. And a heart shot? Remember this was under duress. That was not a placed shot therefor rendering your placement argument null and void. And apparently there was better placement. Was it not the shot to the coconut that stopped him?

Just stop. This is getting embarrassing (these posts representing THR)

Those weren't placed shots? What are you talking about?? :confused:

BTW, the offender was shot "in the heart, right lung, left lung, liver, diaphragm, and right kidney"

I suppose all of those hits were just miraculous luck because clearly this master firearms instructor with a 1/3 hit ratio in an actual two way gunfight just can't hold a candle to the firearm/shooting skills of all these guys on the internet. :rolleyes:
 
Handguns are not effective weapons. All humans react very differently to being shot.
 
The potential one stop shot doesn't exist, and the existence of the .45ACP was to prove it would still be only an incremental improvement. That means the percentage of shots needs to stop only decreased slightly.

It could be said the officer using an AR pistol in .300BO wouldn't have gotten any better results. And the list of failure to stop would keep escalating right up to those xrays of humans with unexploded mortar rounds imbedded in their body being prepped for surgery.

The use of drugs only makes it worse, and even if you do hit the heart, it still takes from 30-90 seconds before the brain begins to feel the effect of a loss of blood circulation. As anyone who's contested with their siblings knows, you can only hold your breath for so long, but trained divers can go 4-5 minutes.

Center of Mass shots do a credible job of slowing down or stopping humans, a central nervous system hit does it much more quickly. It immediately interferes with control over parts of the body if not completely. Hence the last few shots being head shots, and the officer recognizes they are much harder to make, therefore he braced against the nearest object to steady his aim. He was, after all, using a handgun with an effective range measured in feet - not hundreds of yards. Handguns are extremely portable but not the most effective tool in stopping humans. They are seriously compromised and not the best choice - which is why every army in the world issues RIFLES and the dominant casualty producer overall has been artillery or air dropped munitions. Small arms projectiles are by and large restricted to that short range where the crew served munitions effective kill zone overlaps the ground that your own troops occupy.

It might be an older shooting, but it is a good illustration of what a handgun will and will not do. Those shots taken initially failed to stop, the last few were precisely aimed with a steady rest. And as usual in real life, the target refused to stand still in the open, unlike most range exercises where safety is promoted over tactical excellence due to a lack of resources or imagination.

I made the comment quoted above, I'm a fan of Mas Ayoob, but the point of my comment was the unstated slant that a handgun in the hands of a competent shooter should have done more, sooner. There is no guarantee of that, ever. It is indicative of human nature that the number of rounds previously carried is now considered inadequate, when the reality is that it always will be. There can be circumstances where even if the individual carried 300 rounds it wouldn't be enough. You have to assess what your level of risk is and also deal with the after shooting reaction that your incident slipped into that small minority of shootings we tend to focus on.
 
Great Caesar's Ghost! I feel as though I've gone through the space-time continuum and am back in 1991 as a result of reading this thread.

Perhaps some who've posted here should read the original American Handgunner article by Ayoob that discussed this OIS. Might help put some of the stuff currently being discussed into perspective.
 
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