The new subcompact 9mm from Sig
- Thread starter Enachos
- Start date
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If those keep getting smaller standard framed door will be safe from bullet holes at 10 yards. It's hard to imagine some folks are shooting .380 +P ammo from that little 9oz? Ruger toy. I don't think I could hit barn door at 10 yards with 2nd or 3rd shot.
Zerodefect
member
Dang, I didn't get the memo.
It wasn't a memo, actually looked more like a "Dora the Explorer" birthday card. Check your mail!
I just wish these so called premium "highend" guns would come with modern sights like Warren Tactical, Heinie Ledge, or Dawson sights.
Or at least try to use Novak 1911 or Glock sight cuts so I can use popular sights.
Viper
Member
I very much like my SIG's, but I'm not running out to trade my PM9 for one.
Mac's Precision
Member
Meh... Not terribly interested here. I hope that it isn't a runted version of the P250. If it is the quality probably shouldn't be packing the Sig name. I don't think Glock really has much to worry about in competition with the 26. There reaches a point where little guns get too little. Many folks buy guns that are far too small just because they can...not because they NEED them that small. A person can ankle carry a Glock 26 or 27 quite well every day.
The use of proper holsters that are tuckable will allow for some much more suitable firepower without the need for midget guns. The market has gotten so aimed at pocket carry that I have to quote one of the sales guys at the local gun shop. "I have sold so many of these LCPs lately that I think there is going to be a whole brigade of midgets riding schnauzers armed with the little pistol riding through town calling themselves the lilliputian posse"
Cheers
Mac.
The use of proper holsters that are tuckable will allow for some much more suitable firepower without the need for midget guns. The market has gotten so aimed at pocket carry that I have to quote one of the sales guys at the local gun shop. "I have sold so many of these LCPs lately that I think there is going to be a whole brigade of midgets riding schnauzers armed with the little pistol riding through town calling themselves the lilliputian posse"
Cheers
Mac.
JohnBT
Member
"A person can ankle carry a Glock 26 or 27 quite well every day."
Dang, you must own some long Bermuda shorts.
I wear normal shorts and pocket carry a Rohrbaugh.
Dang, you must own some long Bermuda shorts.
I wear normal shorts and pocket carry a Rohrbaugh.
joe_security
Member
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2007
- Messages
- 490
I like the looks of this, but I still think I will end up with the black slide PM9.
outerlimit
Member
From the specs it appears to be .2" longer and 4.5oz heavier than the PM9.
Mac's Precision
Member
Dang, you must own some long Bermuda shorts.
I wear normal shorts and pocket carry a Rohrbaugh.
Take a look at where I live.....we don't get a LOT of shorts weather. Unless you take in account for Seattle 90 miles south....where goofy folks wear cargo shorts....sandals with socks...and rain coats.
Cheers
Mac.
I wear normal shorts and pocket carry a Rohrbaugh.
Take a look at where I live.....we don't get a LOT of shorts weather. Unless you take in account for Seattle 90 miles south....where goofy folks wear cargo shorts....sandals with socks...and rain coats.
Cheers
Mac.
harmon rabb
Member
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2009
- Messages
- 2,699
No tuckable holster is as comfortable as pocket carrying a LCP. I carry IWB a lot (with proper holsters and a real gun belt) and it's not uncomfortable at all, but it's still not the complete and utter comfort of carrying my LCP in a pocket.
While a pocket .380 certainly wouldn't be my first (or even 10th choice) going into trouble, it still beats the hell out of a sharp stick.
easyg
Member
It looks very promising to me.
PX15
Member
JMOfartO:
I carry my LCP in a rear pocket holster daily... I don't worry about hitting a target at 10 yards with it, altho I believe I could, because the tiny, very light, Ruger LCP is not designed as a target pistol..
It's designed for "up close and person" self defense distance, and for that job it is perfect.
I have a couple of dozen larger, and larger caliber self defense choices, but the pistol I carry with me EVERY DAY is the easy to conceal Ruger LCP..
But hey, I have no problem with those folks who consider the Ruger LCP as too small for THEIR self defense, everyone is entitled to an opinion.
No offense, just conversin', not confrontin' ..
Best Wishes,
Jesse
I carry my LCP in a rear pocket holster daily... I don't worry about hitting a target at 10 yards with it, altho I believe I could, because the tiny, very light, Ruger LCP is not designed as a target pistol..
It's designed for "up close and person" self defense distance, and for that job it is perfect.
I have a couple of dozen larger, and larger caliber self defense choices, but the pistol I carry with me EVERY DAY is the easy to conceal Ruger LCP..
But hey, I have no problem with those folks who consider the Ruger LCP as too small for THEIR self defense, everyone is entitled to an opinion.
No offense, just conversin', not confrontin' ..
Best Wishes,
Jesse
JohnBT
Member
"cargo shorts....sandals with socks...and rain coats."
Now that's just not right. Heck, sandals with socks are scary enough.
Now that's just not right. Heck, sandals with socks are scary enough.
KodiakBeer
member
Go to Ballistics by the Inch: http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/results.html
Compare .380 vs 9mm in 3" barrels. Is the (very) slight advantage of a 9mm worth the enormous recoil, muzzle flash and price difference of the gun itself? I don't think so. Your mileage may vary.
Compare .380 vs 9mm in 3" barrels. Is the (very) slight advantage of a 9mm worth the enormous recoil, muzzle flash and price difference of the gun itself? I don't think so. Your mileage may vary.
MrBill120
Member
I have an LCP. But that new Sig is VERY tempting!!! I think I might want one!
Defense Minister
Member
+1
Although the Sig looks interesting, it is 50% heavier than a PF-9, and will cost about 75% more. Since my PF-9 has been 100% for 500+ rounds, I'd rather buy a second one than a new, overpriced Sig.
The sig looks interesting but at this point it is hard to pass much judgment on it. We don't know much about its performance or durability and don't even know what it costs.
Well you may want to crunch some numbers. The chronograph numbers I have recorded and seen others publish lead me to believe there is just not a huge difference between .380 and 9mm out of guns like the R9 and PM9. People seem to talk about these tiny 9mms like they are the equivalent of a duty sized gun and that is just not the case. Some people buying the R9 in particular have been had IMHO. The all round difference that the extra $800 is getting them over an LCP is very very minimal. Personally I'd take a sig 238 over the R9 on those considerations.
My real issue with these little guns is that they are simply difficult to run and shoot very well. If heaven forbid I get in a gun fight I want it to be with a weapon I can shoot well and I can run well. When you start testing your self in realistic training scenarios the limitations of a tiny gun in a pocket will quickly present themselves. I have a LCP and often pocket carry it, but it is typically as a BUG or in situations where any chance of a larger gun being spotted vastly outweighs the likely benefit of having a larger gun in the particular circumstance.
I have thought about buying a PM9 mostly because 9mm ammo is cheaper but then I think about the fact that I can buy or load up a lot of 380 rounds for the price difference (and since I would sell the LCP anyways it would really just be for the price). If it were my only carry I'd likely prefer the PM9 to the LCP.
There was a whole thread on this but second strike capability is not really an advantage at all. Anyone who is competent with their gun is not going to pull the trigger again when they get an un-expected click in lieu of a bang. Rather, they are going to tap rack bang. Pulling the trigger is a waste of time. It could only possible solve one of the multiple possible reasons you got a click. A second trigger pull is unlikely to get a bang. Don't wast time just go to your immediate action drill.
I would respectfully submit that it was designed to be to be really easy to carry and conceal. For that it is perfect. The weapons that are better "up close and personal" are legion and the LCP is far from perfect for that type of situation.
Honestly that might not actual be true in all situations depending on the stick in question. I understand the point you were getting at though.
This is the real virtue of pocket carry. It is convenient for people. I think that is why what I would call the casual carrier is so attracted to it. The draw backs are also not always apparent until you really start to test your gear and carry methods through more demanding training including force on force. Under such circumstance one can start to truly appreciate the immense gulf that exists between a tiny gun in a pocket of your jeans and say a G19 carried in a quality holster. The casual carrier doesn't engage in demanding training. He doesn't ever try to get to his gun in a force on force drill. He doesn't practice drawing and firing with his support hand. He doesn't draw his gun out of his jeans pocket while moving of the X. He doesn't drill clearing malfunctions, reloads etc. He doesn't quantify any of the above with a shot timer.
The casual carrier also, despite stressing out over the exact gun to buy, often is unwilling to then invest in a good belt and holster which make carrying a larger gun in a holster much more comfortable and convenient so what he perceives the difference in ease of carry between a gun on his hip and one is his front pocket to be is even greater than what it might actually be.
Of course people very very very rarely every need to use a handgun in self defense and thus in the vast majority of cases none of it really matters anyhow. But if one is unlucky enough to need their gun...
The real irony to me is that it is most often this type of person that thinks having a tiny 9mm is going to make some big difference over having a tiny 380. I would submit if all they are going to do is stick one or the other in a pocket holster and occasionally put some rounds down range which one they have is unlikely to be anything close to a dispositive factor in an incident that requires shooting.
Well you may want to crunch some numbers. The chronograph numbers I have recorded and seen others publish lead me to believe there is just not a huge difference between .380 and 9mm out of guns like the R9 and PM9. People seem to talk about these tiny 9mms like they are the equivalent of a duty sized gun and that is just not the case. Some people buying the R9 in particular have been had IMHO. The all round difference that the extra $800 is getting them over an LCP is very very minimal. Personally I'd take a sig 238 over the R9 on those considerations.
My real issue with these little guns is that they are simply difficult to run and shoot very well. If heaven forbid I get in a gun fight I want it to be with a weapon I can shoot well and I can run well. When you start testing your self in realistic training scenarios the limitations of a tiny gun in a pocket will quickly present themselves. I have a LCP and often pocket carry it, but it is typically as a BUG or in situations where any chance of a larger gun being spotted vastly outweighs the likely benefit of having a larger gun in the particular circumstance.
I have thought about buying a PM9 mostly because 9mm ammo is cheaper but then I think about the fact that I can buy or load up a lot of 380 rounds for the price difference (and since I would sell the LCP anyways it would really just be for the price). If it were my only carry I'd likely prefer the PM9 to the LCP.
There was a whole thread on this but second strike capability is not really an advantage at all. Anyone who is competent with their gun is not going to pull the trigger again when they get an un-expected click in lieu of a bang. Rather, they are going to tap rack bang. Pulling the trigger is a waste of time. It could only possible solve one of the multiple possible reasons you got a click. A second trigger pull is unlikely to get a bang. Don't wast time just go to your immediate action drill.
I would respectfully submit that it was designed to be to be really easy to carry and conceal. For that it is perfect. The weapons that are better "up close and personal" are legion and the LCP is far from perfect for that type of situation.
Honestly that might not actual be true in all situations depending on the stick in question. I understand the point you were getting at though.
This is the real virtue of pocket carry. It is convenient for people. I think that is why what I would call the casual carrier is so attracted to it. The draw backs are also not always apparent until you really start to test your gear and carry methods through more demanding training including force on force. Under such circumstance one can start to truly appreciate the immense gulf that exists between a tiny gun in a pocket of your jeans and say a G19 carried in a quality holster. The casual carrier doesn't engage in demanding training. He doesn't ever try to get to his gun in a force on force drill. He doesn't practice drawing and firing with his support hand. He doesn't draw his gun out of his jeans pocket while moving of the X. He doesn't drill clearing malfunctions, reloads etc. He doesn't quantify any of the above with a shot timer.
The casual carrier also, despite stressing out over the exact gun to buy, often is unwilling to then invest in a good belt and holster which make carrying a larger gun in a holster much more comfortable and convenient so what he perceives the difference in ease of carry between a gun on his hip and one is his front pocket to be is even greater than what it might actually be.
Of course people very very very rarely every need to use a handgun in self defense and thus in the vast majority of cases none of it really matters anyhow. But if one is unlucky enough to need their gun...
The real irony to me is that it is most often this type of person that thinks having a tiny 9mm is going to make some big difference over having a tiny 380. I would submit if all they are going to do is stick one or the other in a pocket holster and occasionally put some rounds down range which one they have is unlikely to be anything close to a dispositive factor in an incident that requires shooting.
MikeNice
Member
I like the weight on it. However, I would like to see a finger extension for the mag. It looks like a thumb-pointer-middle grip. If I'm going to shoot 9mm I want to get my ring finger in there to help out.
Also the price is a bit steep. I can pick up a Kel Tec P-11, the trigger boot, two 12 round clips, 3 finger extensions, and get it buffed for about $150 less than Sig's msrp.
Also the price is a bit steep. I can pick up a Kel Tec P-11, the trigger boot, two 12 round clips, 3 finger extensions, and get it buffed for about $150 less than Sig's msrp.
MikeNice
Member
A lot of people like to talk about the .380 and 9mm being the same out of a 3" barrel. I disagree. The larger cross sectional density of the heavier bullet is going to be a distinct advantage.
They may be going close to the same speed but from what I've read, and test I've seen, the heavier density is going to improve penetration. Especially when you are using modern hollow points.
The tests at GoldenLoki tend to bear this out. Also, there are other tests showing the difference between 124gr and 147 grain 9mm bullets. In an ATK Law Enforcement test there is a big difference between 115gr+p and 147gr Winchester 9mm ammo. The 147gr routinely penetrates 1 or more inches better out of the same gun.
They may be going close to the same speed but from what I've read, and test I've seen, the heavier density is going to improve penetration. Especially when you are using modern hollow points.
The tests at GoldenLoki tend to bear this out. Also, there are other tests showing the difference between 124gr and 147 grain 9mm bullets. In an ATK Law Enforcement test there is a big difference between 115gr+p and 147gr Winchester 9mm ammo. The 147gr routinely penetrates 1 or more inches better out of the same gun.
MikeNice
Member
There isn't a huge difference between a pocket 9mm and a pocket .380. However, there is a difference of multiple inches in penetration. It may not be huge, but I want every inch of advantage I can get.
If we get right down to brass tacks the main difference between a service size pistol and a pocket pistol is accuracy at longer distances. However, at the usual contact to 10 yards of a gun fight the difference isn't significant, in most cases. A premium bullet out of a 5" barrel isn't going to give you but one or maybe one-point-five more inches of penetration on average. For most scenarios it isn't worth the trade off in weight, size, or cost.
I have a longer upper body. So, if I carry owb I would have to go out and invest in bigger shirts. I would end up wearing shirts that are ill fitting and don't wear as well. Carrying iwb means more thna buying a holster and belt. I would have to go out and replace 90% of my pants. That is an extra investment of more than $200.
It isn't about a failure to be serious about carrying. It is about fitting concealed carry in to my life. Concealed carry is a part of my life style, it isn't my lifestyle. It doesn't determine how I live my life. I'm not going to go out and replace my whole wardrobe just to carry. I rather spend the hundreds of dollars on ammo, practice, and training.
KodiakBeer
member
What about the advantage of quick recovery between shots? How about the advantage of not having a 2 foot fireball erupt from your barrel and night blind you if you shoot in low light.
You will get a slight ballistic advantage from a 9mm in a 3" barrel, but there are other considerations to take into account.
Onward Allusion
Member
I think I'll stick with a proven designed P11 that is also a true DAO with higher standard capacity and the ability to take a standard 15 round 59 mag for probably hundreds less.
MikeNice
Member
I haven't noticed a big difference in time for follow up shots between a pocket .380 and pocket 9mm. If anything I shoot a Keltec P-11 better than a Ruger LCP. With the extension I can get more fingers on the P-11 and control it better.
Don't forget there are flash supressed loads out there. The Hornady TAP-FPD round and other LE rounds often have much less flash than other rounds.
I'm not saying that it is the right choice for everyone. I am not saying that it is a perfect choice. I am saying, despite what some people on the internet say, there is proof out there that a 3" 9mm does have a ballistic advantage over a 3" .380. A pocket .380 usually delivers between 7 inches and 11 inches of penetration. A pocket 9mm usually offers between 10 and 16 inches of penetration.
The points you raised are valid points and should be adressed when considering a gun. Saying that the 9mm offers no advantage is dishonest and does not serve any one well.
Don't forget there are flash supressed loads out there. The Hornady TAP-FPD round and other LE rounds often have much less flash than other rounds.
I'm not saying that it is the right choice for everyone. I am not saying that it is a perfect choice. I am saying, despite what some people on the internet say, there is proof out there that a 3" 9mm does have a ballistic advantage over a 3" .380. A pocket .380 usually delivers between 7 inches and 11 inches of penetration. A pocket 9mm usually offers between 10 and 16 inches of penetration.
The points you raised are valid points and should be adressed when considering a gun. Saying that the 9mm offers no advantage is dishonest and does not serve any one well.
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