The new subcompact 9mm from Sig

[Girodin]

I haven't noticed a big difference in time for follow up shots between a pocket .380 and pocket 9mm.

Which ones have you shot and what was your method of measuring the difference?

There isn't a huge difference between a pocket 9mm and a pocket .380. However, there is a difference of multiple inches in penetration. It may not be huge, but I want every inch of advantage I can get.

I agree there is some advantage, I don't think that is really debatable, but Kodiak has hit on what I believe is one of the things likely to be a more significant factor in a defensive situation, namely followups and ability to run the gun. An inch of penatration might be a difference maker. So could speed of followups, so could being able to quickly clear a malfunction (the design of some guns makes certain clearances much more difficult and/or slower).

My point isn't that the 9mm is the wrong choice per se. Rather that people seem to have a myopic approach to evaluating the guns at issue and fail to really consider all the pertinent factors.

I haven't noticed a big difference in time for follow up shots between a pocket .380 and pocket 9mm. If anything I shoot a Keltec P-11 better than a Ruger LCP

The P11 is on the upper crust of "pocket gun" I think the critique is much more valid against weapons like the R9. A P11 is big enough that you get away from some of those issue and indeed it wouldn't surprise me if in these areas it has an advantage vis a vis a LCP/P3AT. Of the course one way to test this is take a shot timer out run various drills. If you look at guns that are roughly the same size and weight say a P238 and a R9 I think the P238 has notable advantages not outweighed by the slight advatanges of the 9mm chambering.

I am saying, despite what some people on the internet say, there is proof out there that a 3" 9mm does have a ballistic advantage over a 3" .380.

and in the same vein

Saying that the 9mm offers no advantage is dishonest and does not serve any one well.

No one is claiming that they would be silly to. If you think I wrote anything to that effect you may want to go reread my actual remarks. The argument is what I have outlined above. To wit, they are not the same but the advantage held by the 9mm is often not nearly as big as some people think. Further, the ballistics are not the only thing to worry about and depending on the gun and shooter in question may not offset the advantages held by a weapon in .380. A lot will come down to the particular guns one is comparing.

 

[MikeNice]

Girodin, my comments weren't directed at you solely. You did make your statement pretty clear. I read it wrong. I've heard so many people say (and read people's posts else where) that a short barrel .380 and short barrel 9mm are the same, that I took your specific concerns as more general.

Which ones have you shot and what was your method of measuring the difference?

I have not shot the Kahr pistols you mentioned. I have shot my cousin's Kahr in .40S&W. It wasn't a pocket pistol, but it was a bit too light and narrow for my taste.

I have shot a Kel Tec P-11 and Kel Tec PF-9. In my opinion the P-11 is easier to handle than PF-9. The extra thickness and weight do make it easier to shoot. In pocket .380s I have shot a Bersa Thunder .380 (pocket status is questionable) the LCP, TCP, Jiminez, and Kel Tec P-3AT.

I had someone else time me while I emptied an entire clip in to a target at seven yards. I took time to be reasonably sure each shot would stay in the nine ring on a B-34 target. There was less than a 2 second difference between the PF-9 and the LCP. I was actually faster with the PF-9 than the Jiminez .380.

Now that you have laid it out in more detail, and I have left experiences with others at the door, I agree with most of what you are saying. I can not comment on your assertions regarding the PM9 and R9.

 

[cesarv]

Me want.

 

[BADUNAME13]

My Glock 26 fits in the Pocket of my Carhartt Tapered fit Jeans, fits in a Galco Ankle Glove under the same (Although I can't wear it due to my bad feet) Uses higher capacity mags, night sites, and I've made 100 yard hits on Larue reactive targets (Smaller than chest sized steel.)

Tried Kahr... < > I'll NEVER deal with them or their priduct again.

Tried many other's...

Like J frames, but Subcompact Glocks are more practical.

Keltec P11... Had one... might as well have the Glock.


Not seeing what's any better than what I've got.

JMHO

 

[alienbogey]

This is what I'm waiting for in a sub-compact 9mm:

http://www.bobergarms.com/

If their claims are true it should realize more of the ballistic potential of the 9mm and thus have a greater performance advantage over a similar sized 380.

I'm on their list and standing by to be an early adopter.

 

[Girodin]

The bullpup-esque pistol is an interesting idea. I'd like to get my hands on own to see how it shoots, how the controls are, etc. in order to form more of an opinion. It is is definitely an interesting concept though. It is vaporware though so it is moot until they bring it to market.

 

[outerlimit]

I like the idea of the Boberg as well, but it seems like the gun has been vaporware for years now. I don't know of anyone who actually owns one.

 

[MrBill120]

Can any one speculate as to when we'll actually be able to get our hands on one of these???

 

[GunTech]

Latest word is any time now. Been waiting to see one of these for a while. Looks like MSRP will be around $850.

 

[MrBill120]

Hmmm.....MSRP around $850 huh? What do you think actual pricing will be???
$879?? LOL

 

[armoredman]

I observe the mag capacity is listed as 6/8, meaning there might be an "extended" mag for those of us looking for a BIT more to hang to. I like it, would love to try it.

 

[groundhog34]

At a 50% discount from the list it would be a good buy after the first 20,000 are tested by consumers. Sig's latest offering lack the quality of the older German guns. Their CS is weak. I had an early P250 in 45 that could not fire 3 rounds without jamming so I sent it back to Sig. They junked the gun and said I could wait 3 months for a new production one. I wanted a refund. They would not refund my money so rather then waiting I took a P250 in 40 cal. Believe it or not it jammed as well, just not as often. I returned it to Sig they repaired it and I promptly traded it off. What still sticks in my caw is that I had to pay a FFL to receive the 40 and Sig would not cover that cost. If only Glock would make a single stack 9.

 

[M1key]

If only Glock would make a single stack 9.

You have uttered that which may not be spoken...



The Holy Grail of pocket pistols...

M

 

[Strahley]

If they are less than $500 I'll probably get one. I'm very interested

 

[DAdams]

Just

What I would want, another subcompact 9mm to send back and forth to the factory until right.

4.5 ounces heavier than the PM9....no appeal there. No thanks. Rather a PPS.

 

[modifiedbrowning]

If only Glock would make a single stack 9.

Walther does, it's called the PPS.

 

[Imon]

Market Price

I work at a large outdoors retailer that sells guns and although we don't anticipate receiving any until early Jan. 2011, I can give you the price it was listed for in our system.

$670 for the Nitron finished slide.
$700 for the Stainless steel slide.

Edit: I believe both models come standard with a laser.
Edit Edit: I'm also positive that the more expensive one comes with Siglite Night Sights but I think the cheaper one should too. Hopefully at that price.

 

[joe_security]

What happened to MSRP $ 530 ?

 

[PabloJ]

Tell me this doesn't look good. It's the P290

http://www.sigsauer.com/Products/ShowCatalogProductDetails.aspx?categoryid=70&productid=307

Can't wait to hear reviews on this once it comes out.

I would wait for the next model to come out. You know the one you will be able to hold and shoot with one finger.

 

[RKBABob]

Not interested.

I honestly don't understand the current crase of super-small, oddly shaped, high caliber, low capacity polymer pistols. Sig, why can't you just shave down the P239 a bit more in width? :banghead:

The way the grip panels attach is a great idea... until it starts to rattle.

 

[Claude Clay]

but what exactly does one hold on to while shooting it?

....the pants you will have to change into after you fire it

i'll stay with my p-11 and the p-239/40

and i am in agreement with Kodiakbeer re 9 vs 380 out of such a short bbl---shot placement trumps caliber here

 

[usafo8]

No way is the the Sig P290 size of the Rohrbaugh! I had a Rohrbaugh and got rid of it. It was just too complicated to disassembe and reassemble and I hated the trigger. Gander Mountain just got a bunch of the P290s and my local store had six of them. I just went to see one and possibly buy it. I normally carry a ParaOrd PDA .45 in my pocket and love the gun and caliber. Very seldom, when I really dont want to carry a gun, I carry the Ruger LCP with a laser. Sorry but the .380 just doesnt impress me and I would feel severely undergunned if I ever had to pull it out. So, the P290 sounded good. It's better lookiing in person than in the pictures and the trigger is decent (certainly better than any of the micro .380s I have tried.) That's the good stuff. It is MUCH bigger than a Rohrbaugh or the LCP. In fact, it is less than 1/2 inch shorter in height or length and just as wide as my full house .45 ParaOrd PDA. Hefting both together I really couldnt feel any appreciable difference in weight either. FYI, Gander Mountain is selling it for $699.99 with night sights and an extra set of grips that is labeled as "First Edition P290."

Also, in speaking to a friend who worked in the armory of a federal law enforcement agency and has done extensive forensic work on shooting cases, he tells me that using a 3" barrel to launch either a .380 or a 9mm would create about the same results. His feeling is that it would take at least 4 or 5 inches of barrel to allow the 9mm to build up significantly greater velocity than the .380. Why bother with more bulk, cost and weight for an unnoticable difference in ballistics?

I have a great deal of respect for Sig (except for the Mustang) but FOR ME I'll stay with a caliber that begins with a 4 in a gun that is effectively the same weight and size. This is NOT an alternative to an LCP or .380s of that ilk!

 

[FCastle88]

Also, in speaking to a friend who worked in the armory of a federal law enforcement agency and has done extensive forensic work on shooting cases, he tells me that using a 3" barrel to launch either a .380 or a 9mm would create about the same results. His feeling is that it would take at least 4 or 5 inches of barrel to allow the 9mm to build up significantly greater velocity than the .380. Why bother with more bulk, cost and weight for an unnoticable difference in ballistics?

I have a great deal of respect for Sig (except for the Mustang) but FOR ME I'll stay with a caliber that begins with a 4 in a gun that is effectively the same weight and size. This is NOT an alternative to an LCP or .380s of that ilk!

From what I found online, 9mm+p is at least a couple hundred FPS faster than .380 out of pocket sized guns, and effectiveness isn't just about speed, 9mm+p is also launching a much heavier bullet with a lot more energy. Not sure how .380 is less cost either, around here .380 range ammo is about 50% more than 9mm, and is still somewhat difficult to find.

 

[NG VI]

it would take at least 4 or 5 inches of barrel to allow the 9mm to build up significantly greater velocity than the .380. Why bother with more bulk, cost and weight for an unnoticable difference in ballistics?

I think it's ludicrous to believe that a cartridge launching much heavier bullets a bit faster or significantly heavier bullets much faster will suddenly become more effective from four to five inches, but between three and four is not worth the time. Even with a subcompact 3.5" 9mm versus one of the old-school 4-5" .380s, the nine has it in spades over the .380.

Whether a given platform is any better for a specific user is up in the air though.

The 290 does look more like an alternative to the Kahr/PPS/26/27/P11/PF9 type pistols than the 3ATs to me.