the ORIGINAL hydra-shok 38 special????

[cpileri]

I came across a fellow selling a bunch of 'original hydra shok' projectiles and would like to know as much about them, and loads used with them for various purposes, as I can.
Internet search is dry.

They are 38 Special, all-lead 141gr double end wadcutters with one end flat and the other a hollowpoint with the still-familiar post in the center.

I hear they have been referred to as 'scorpion' but only one tiny reference appears in the google search. I was hoping that someone would be familiar with them.

Thanks in advance,
C-

 

[dfariswheel]

I've still got 100 rounds or so I loaded up a few years ago from some bullets I bought LOOONG ago.

As I recall, they were 158 grain, but I can't be 100% sure about that.
I do remember them being sold as Hydra-shok's, not Scorpion.

I remember they were straight cylindrical, flat on one end, had the hollow point and post in the other, and appeared to have a solid lube on the outside. No crimping or lube grooves.

I don't remember the Scorpion name being used in conjunction with the Hydra-shok bullet.

 

[SDC]

Here's a thread that shows a couple of these items at Glocktalk ( http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2010824#post2010824 ), along with an original print ad that shows them being advertised as "Scorpions" ( http://www.glocktalk.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=2010824 ) HTH.

 

[tbeb]

A long time ago I bought some from a local gun shop who sold them as reloads. I don't remember anything specific about firing them, but they were probably similar to a 148 gr. target wadcutter. (You might also want to post this in the "Handloading and Reloading" forum.)

 

[James Bondrock]

I am almost certain I remember a picture in a gun rag showing a box of "Hydra-Shok Scorpion" (that's right, both names together) cartridges in .38 Special, and a loaded round. It somewhat resembled a reversed hollow-based wadcutter seated farther out of the case. (Normal target wadcutters are seated flush with the case mouth.)

 

[BluesBear]

I bought several cases of the red, white & black boxed Hydra-Shok Scorpions from the factory back around winter 1978. This was of course before Federal bought the license for them.

They sold like wildfire.

As I recall they were about 150 grains. The original molds were hollow base wadcutter molds with a hole drilled in the base plug. When the base plug was removed before opening the mold it left the "stinger" in the cavity.
As I recall they were seated flush with the case mouth.

As I was told the company wanted to call them "The Stinger" but the name was already owned by Speer/CCI.

I test fired them in several mediums from water filled milk jugs to phone books to sand bahs and got expansion in all of them. I even got a good expansion in a chunk of ice. (that's how I remember it was winter)

For years I loaded Hornady Swaged HBWC upside down and I sold a lot of those as well. (Yes I had a class 6 license) I seated mine in the first (last) lube groove and slightly beveled the edge with an RCBS deburring tool for easier chambering.

 

[wenger]

I had some of the original .38 spl Hydra-Shok scorpions. They came 18 rounds in a nifty red plastic ammo case. Federal bought the manufacturing rights in the late 80s/early 90s and introduced their Hydra-Shok line.

I've never thought the post was much more then a marketing gimmick.


John

 

[dfariswheel]

"I've never thought the post was much more then a marketing gimmick".

Many people thought this, but when the FBI was testing ammo during the replacement of the S&W revolver, they did a study of the Hydra-shok bullet that was interesting.

As part of the investigation of the Hydra-shok, questions arose as to whether the post actually DID anything, so the FBI put loaded factory rounds into a milling machine, and milled the post OUT completely, leaving a standard hollow cavity.

In shooting tests, the altered ammo performed poorly. The unaltered ammo gave excellent penetration and expansion.

I remember something about the conclusion being, that the post supported the outer walls of the bullet, or something to that effect.

 

[cpileri]

resurrection of old thread, but with pictures!

and here they are:

only 2&1/2 years later!
C-

 

[BluesBear]

And here is one of the original ads from when I was a distributor of them.

It was good stuff. It worked well.
I'd still be selling it today if I could get it.
I've begged Federal to produce it again but they say there's no demand for it.

 

[JMACDONALD]

hydra shok

Ladys and gents posts like this one are the reason I joined THR. I love it when a peice from "the old school" gets a bit of attention. I fired close to 150 rounds of the all lead full wadcutter hydra shok last summer. One of my best friends was on our home town PD at the time and got a lot of old .38 spc and 9mm from the range/armory that is in the basement of the station (Glock model 22s are filling their holsters now) to fire off. The case was stamped hydra shok on the bottom which I thought was odd until reading this post. I did'nt know Federal bought the rights to the design from anouthe company. I remember thinking I have and have fired off a number of old rounds and never saw Silver Tip, Cleanbore, etc. on the case I thought it was a marketing thing. Any who....they were acurate as hell and had almost no recoil in my 3' S&W model 13. The post in the middle was very pointy and not rounded looking as in the above advestisment, odd since about 1/3 of them were loose in the box or on old speed strips. If they expanded well I wonder why they went to a jacketed round.....fouling (which I did'nt detect in my k frame) or the fact people must have thought an all lead round was out dated by the early eightys. Funny since I still carry the FBI load in '06. - JOE MAC

 

[warwagon]

In the 70s the hydrashock was almost universaly carried by those of us who carried small .38s for off duty.

They eventualy gave way to other rounds such as the nyclad hp(cops are a fickle lot), but many of us continued to carry them, and truth be known, I could still scrounge up a few of them to this day!

 

[Jim March]

Huh. Looks neat but...really, would they be any different from a 148gr HBWC turned backwards and loaded at respectable velocity?



I rather doubt it.

 

[BluesBear]

Rephrasing the question...

Is the current Hydra Shok as marketed by Federal any different from a standard Jacketed Hollow Point?

The principle is still the same.

Also, the post in the original Scorpion bullet put more weight in the nose than with a standard CWBH.

And a CWBH has a V shaped cavity. The Scorpion was more U shaped.
You might get closer by taking a CWBH and drilling out the cavity.
But then you still wouldn't have the post in the middle which has always been the premise behind the entire Hydra-Shok line.

 

[cpileri]

YESSSSSS!!!!!!!!

Blues Bear-
You are SO the Man right now! Check out page 2 of this thread: http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=001226

C-
(I am saving and printing that ad image. I was looking all over for it and ould only find a hard copy!)

 

[BluesBear]

Always glad to be of assistance.

Damn, hard to believe that was almost 30 years ago!

1978 was the year I got my first FFL. In some ways it seems like only yesterday yet in others it seems soooo long ago.

I only wish I knew then what I know now.

 

[Sistema1927]

I loaded up a bunch of these in the late 70's-early 80's for my Dad to carry in a Charter Undercover. We found these when he was cleaning up the garage last summer, and shot them all up. I can't remember whether I used 231 or Unique, but they all shot just fine, and were accurate to boot.

I don't know if they ever were the "ultimate defense load", but I replaced them with 135 Gold Dots for his 21st century carry load.

 

[Jim March]

With a plain lead soft hollowpoint at respectable speeds (850fps or over) you don't need all that big a hollowpoint cavity to work.

Remington has proven that with their 158gr LSWH-HP+P.

I can't imagine that a hollow-base wadcutter (backwards) cavity wouldn't be at least as big as what's on the Remmie?

 

[Invisible Swordsman]

This thread sent me to the basement checking through my old ammo. I have one full and one mostly empty box of 125 grain Hydra-Shoks. The boxes are red with black lettering. They're called "Copperhead" on the box.

The bullet is semi-jacketed with a very slight taper and blunt nose. The post is fairly thick. The brass cases are headstamped "Hydra-Shok. I'm not sure what year I bought these and there is no date on the box, but it had to be the early to mid-80's.

 

[BluesBear]

Yes the "Copper Head" ammo was only produced a short time and therefore isn't as common or well know as the scorpion ammo.
It was Hydro-Shok's attempt to appeal to mainstream ammo users. As I recall jacket technology wasn't what it is today and the Copperhead's exansion wasn't as consistent as the original lead, flush loaded Scorpion.
If my drug-addled memory doesn't fail me the Copperhead was introduced sometime around 1982?
The Hydro-Shok Corp was spreading itself rather thin trying to compete with Winchester & Remington which were the two big players in the ammo game back then. Federal was a distant third and looking to increase it's market share.

The ammo scene of the early 1980s was vastly different from today.
Long time bullet makers Speer & Hornady had just entered the loaded ammo market.
PMC was strictly a mil-surp ammo company selling .30-06 and .45acp

Federal was well know with shotgunners and a little with rifle shooters but it's handgun ammo wasn't famous. Federal was severely handicapped after the GCA68 stopped the giant catalogue stores from mail order sales of ammunition.
You must remember that under the original GCA68 handgun ammo was recorded into a bound book similar to firearms!
Federal was the #1 supplier of ammunition sold under the Sears (J.C Higgins/Ted Williams), Montgomery Ward (?) and Western Auto (Revelation) brand names.
Smith & Wesson ammo (formerly Alcan) was also challenging Federal for the #3 spot. And upstart Speer was also gaining popularity.
Super-Vel has recently went the way of the Dodo but did leave it's mark by forcing everyone to rethink the dynamics of handgun ammunition manufacture.

Hydro-Shok was just the ticket Federal needed to become a big player in the handgun ammo field. And it worked. It worked very well.
Suddenly Federal was in big demand.
And when S&W dropped the ball and divested itself of everything that wouldn't fit into a holster Federal scooped up the Nyclad concept.

Federal built it's handgun ammo empire on Hydro-Shok and Nyclad.
Nyclad is no more and Hydra-Shok, while no longer king of the hill, is still a good product. Federal is still looking for the "next big thing".
It's aqusition by ATK has ensured it will remain a viable player in the field.

Speer/CCI, Cor-Bon, Black Hills, PMC, Aguila, Hornady and Wolf have all either come into existance or grown greatly since that time.
There has never been a better selection of quality handgun ammunition to choose from.


But Years Ago™ the Hydro-Shok ammo line was certainly revolutionary.

 

[Byron]

In the late 70's a bullet company by the name of Taurus (not related to the gun company) produced what appeared to be a lead hollow base wadcutter with the post in the center and was named Hydrashock. In the early 80's a company by the name of Alberts bought them out and contined to produce the bullet.I have about 150 of the old Taurus bullets. It was my understanding Federal bought Alberts (cannot confirm this) and produced the bullet as is today.It is not necessary to load to +P and these expand well at 38 velocity. Byron