The proper attitude in Iraq

[Smoke]

Why can we not take a similar approach in Iraq, that was given to Japan in WWII

I submit for your inspection:

Proclamation Defining Terms for Japanese Surrender Issued, at Potsdam, July 26, 1945

We-the President of the United States, the President of the National Government of the Republic of China, and the Prime Minister of Great Britain, representing the hundreds of millions of our countrymen, have conferred and agree that Japan shall be given an opportunity to end this war. The prodigious land, sea and air forces of the United States, the British Empire and of China, many times reinforced by their armies and air fleets from the west, are poised to strike the final blows upon Japan. This military power is sustained and inspired by the determination of all the Allied Nations to prosecute the war against Japan until she ceases to resist. The result of the futile and senseless German resistance to the might of the aroused free peoples of the world stands forth in awful clarity as an example to the people of Japan. The might that now converges on Japan is immeasurably greater than that which, when applied to the resisting Nazis, necessarily laid waste to the lands, the industry and the method of life of the whole German people. The full application of our military power, backed by our resolve, will mean the inevitable and complete destruction of the Japanese armed forces and just as inevitably the utter devastation of the Japanese homeland. The time has come for Japan to decide whether she will continue to be controlled by those self-willed militaristic advisers whose unintelligent calculations have brought the Empire of Japan to the threshold of annihilation, or whether she will follow the path of reason. Following are our terms. We will not deviate from them. There are no alternatives. We shall brook no delay. There must be eliminated for all time the authority and influence of those who have deceived and misled the people of Japan into embarking on world conquest, for we insist that a new order of peace, security and justice will be impossible until irresponsible militarism is driven from the world. Until such a new order is established and until there is convincing proof that Japan's war-making power is destroyed, points in Japanese territory to be designated by the Allies shall be occupied to secure the achievement of the basic objectives we are here setting forth. The terms of the Cairo Declaration shall be carried out and Japanese sovereignty shall be limited to the islands of Honshu, Hokkaido, Kyushu, Shikoku and such minor islands as we determine. The Japanese military forces, after being completely disarmed, shall be permitted to return to their homes with the opportunity to lead peaceful and productive lives. We do not intend that the Japanese shall be enslaved as a race or destroyed as a nation, but stern justice shall be meted out to all war criminals, including those who have visited cruelties upon our prisoners. The Japanese Government shall remove all obstacles to the revival and strengthening of democratic tendencies among the Japanese people. Freedom of speech, of religion, and of thought, as well as respect for the fundamental human rights shall be established. Japan shall be permitted to maintain such industries as will sustain her economy and permit the exaction of just reparations in kind, but not those which would enable her to re-arm for war. To this end, access to, as distinguished from control of, raw materials shall be permitted. Eventual Japanese participation in world trade relations shall be permitted. The occupying forces of the Allies shall be withdrawn from Japan as soon as these objectives have been accomplished and there has been established in accordance with the freely expressed will of the Japanese people a peacefully inclined and responsible government. We call upon the government of Japan to proclaim now the unconditional surrender of all Japanese armed forces, and to provide proper and adequate assurances of their good faith in such action. The alternative for Japan is prompt and utter destruction.

(The Ministory of Foriegn Affairs "Nihon Gaiko Nenpyo Narabini Shuyo Bunsho : 1840-1945" vol.2, 1966)

Highlights mine. That puts it pretty succinctly, "stop or we turn you into a parking lot."

This attitude while easily obtainable in 1942-45 is completely foreign now. Can no politician, CIC, or other high-level official take this firm a stance in Iraq.

Maybe I'm too backwoods, redneck, or simple to understand that a lengthy police action is better than an old fashion butt whoopin'.

Smoke

 

[Sistema1927]

Here is why it won't work:

"backed by our resolve" is no longer true.

 

[Aaryq]

Well...this is political...not too gun related though. I'll save this thread.

What's the best caliber for destroying an entire nation (including innocent men, women, and children) I'm thinking .44 Magnum...or 500.56 caliber ICBM's.

 

[pcosmar]

Highlights mine. That puts it pretty succinctly, "stop or we turn you into a parking lot."

This attitude while easily obtainable in 1942-45 is completely foreign now. Can no politician, CIC, or other high-level official take this firm a stance in Iraq.

Maybe I'm too backwoods, redneck, or simple to understand that a lengthy police action is better than an old fashion butt whoopin'.

??? There might be some point to that IF they had attacked us.
We attacked them. They are fighting an internal civil war, and we are in the way.
How about we just leave, Once we are out of range they won't shoot at us. Let them sort out their own problems.

 

[hawk84]

for we insist that a new order of peace, security and justice will be impossible until irresponsible militarism is driven from the world

hmmmmmmmmmmmmm, perhaps some in this country should listen?

 

[trueblue1776]

"Praise Allah we will be martyrs for our cause!" -That's why that won't work, the guys running the show already want the violence to stop.

 

[samtechlan]

It won't work because we are not fighting a centralized govt like we were in WWII. The govt that the Iraqis did have, Saddam and company, we took out during one sunny wednesday afternoon.

 

[Car Knocker]

Just who, exactly, would we serve with this notice?

 

[SG Merc]

Nowadays they would be too afraid of hurting the enemy's feelings.

For anyone who has been over there: how much pressure is our government putting on the civilian population to resist the extremists? Pardon me if this has already been thought of, but it seems to me that the only way to eliminate the radicals is to take control of as much of the Arab media as possible and start a propaganda war against them.

No support, no recruits.

It worked here ...

 

[Aaryq]

Smoke: Who do you reccomend we start killing? Just walk into town and start killing people. If that's your recomendation, let's start at the school. Who knows, these kids might be learning how to build grenades. No? Don't like killing children? Let's just round up everyone 18 and older and kill them. Wait...then those children don't have parents...we might as well put them in camps to raise them (and help them CONCENTRATE). I've been in the Corps 3 years and when you look at how things work and talk with people who's whole jobs consists of tactics for winning this war you know that you can't just go around killing people. So please, tell us why your tactic would work against someone who thinks that killing innocents is okay if your killing infidels and if the infidels kill you then you go to heaven. Please share your tactics with us.

 

[748]

Part of the problem is the bad guys are conducting unlawfull combat operations, those types of people do not listen or answer to any one. They just do what ever they want. That is why they are unlawfull.
I think quite a few of the people in Iraq are damaged from years of miss treatment by there old govenment and are affraid to stand up to any one any more. :banghead:

 

[longeyes]

Cut the Gordian Knot.

 

[longeyes]

Too many Hamlets, no Alexander.

 

[Black Adder LXX]

Just who, exactly, would we serve with this notice?

How about the government of IRAN???

To keep this firearms related, my recommendation is the vulcan minigun and some 105mm howitzers.

 

[Maggoty]

I have a better question,

In the surrender terms they talked about bringing the armies of the european theater to bear immediately if the terms were not signed.

Who shall we send?

we have no more to send. Our army is below level for recruitment and leaking combat vets badly.

we could call up the national guard, but who would help fight those forest fires in the west, and flooding in texas?

we could call up the reserves, except due to re-organization in 90's they are mostly support units not combat units.

the bulk of our strength is already in Iraq, we have no more cards to throw, and the ones that are down are getting frayed.








BTW I prefer 44 magnum for destroying eniter countries...civilizations...even worlds...

 

[pcosmar]

SG Merc
New Member said,

For anyone who has been over there: how much pressure is our government putting on the civilian population to resist the extremists? Pardon me if this has already been thought of, but it seems to me that the only way to eliminate the radicals is to take control of as much of the Arab media as possible and start a propaganda war against them.

Just what legal or moral authority does our government have in the internal affairs of other countries. They were elected to govern our country.
748
Senior Member said,

Part of the problem is the bad guys are conducting unlawfull combat operations, those types of people do not listen or answer to any one. They just do what ever they want. That is why they are unlawfull.

NO, they are fighting tribal war against rival tribes, and against an invader that they have no respect for.
We are meddling in their private matters and trying to impose the our will on them.
We need to disengage.

 

[fireflyfather]

748 hit the nail on the head. Everyone who was willing to stand up for themselves under the Saddam regime got wiped out (and we helped it happen by not giving them air support we had promised them when they revolted against Saddam). If you know that the people in power will knock down your door in the middle of the night and shoot you (ak or ar, doesn't matter) or take you away to be tortured, then why in God's good name would you open your mouth and make trouble? If you saw what happened to your neighbor when he did it (and he was a soldier, you are a shopkeeper) why would you bo so foolish as to start trouble. Most of the moderates have been killed off or LEFT THE COUNTRY if they could. The rest aren't even moderates, they're PARALYZED. So the only effective people in the country are the radical extremists. Too bad they hold the other 95% hostage.


Smoke:
So, say we nuke Iraq off the face of the planet. We just murdered several million innocent people when we could just as easily COME BACK HOME. The reason we nuked the Japanese and firebombed Tokyo was because Japan was embarking on IMPERIAL CONQUEST, and had no plans to stop. They needed to be stopped (though we had no business cutting off their oil and scrap steel shipments in the first place). Does anyone here seriously think Saddam was about to re-invade Kuwait with no air cover and his army almost totally innefective? Please. If you think it's no big deal to nuke a bunch of civilians because they can't control their own political leadership, why don't you drop some nukes on the U.S. A government that fights wars of conquest over oil because the populace can't get it's political leadership to behave.....sound familiar? If you still think it's no big deal, I'll invite you down to speak to my grandmother, who was one of the few survivors from central Tokyo to describe the stench of burning human flesh as the bodies floated past on the river. I can't invite you to talk to her best friend, as she died of cancer two years ago, her fourth or fifth bout since she left Nagasaki to live in the U.S.

So, if your neighbor's abusive boyfriend is beating the crap out of her and waving a gun around the neighborhood, your solution is to tell her "if you don't take care of your abusive boyfriend, I'm going to blow up your whole house with you and your kids in it, because it's your responsibility to deal with your own household"?

Your comment is the worst kind of ignorant prattle. The Iraquis tried several times to get rid of Saddam. In several cases we promised them support, and most particularly air cover. When they took us at our word and revolted against Saddam, we let the republican guard smash them to pieces, then round up the survivors and execute them along with their families. We gave them NOTHING in the way of promised air power. WE were the ones who didn't want to get rid of Saddam. Even after the first gulf war. If you want to blame someone for this mess, I can give you three names: George Bush Sr., Bill Clinton, & G.W. Bush.

And people wonder why the Iraquis never trusted us from day one. If you want to understand anything at all about why our war of "liberation" is a complete and abject failure, and why the Iraquis were never able to get rid of Saddam on their own, read "Out of the Ashes" by Andrew & Patrick Cockburn.

So, now that we've removed Saddam for them, and keep playing the factions against each other to get their elected officials to sign off on giving up 80% of their oil wealth (practically the only legislation on the table in the Iraqui parliment), what, those who are left are supposed to just magically get their stuff together while being threatened by foreign fighters and the radical 10% armed with RPGs, AKs, IEDs, and god knows what other man-portable weapons?

 

[plexreticle]

You can't win a war unless you fight it like a war.

We are suppose to be friends of the Iraq people so we can't do what needs to be done to win.

 

[davec]

Never ceases to amaze me the number of advocates for mass murder on an unprecidented scale we have here in the United States .

Like we're not already killing enough people.

 

[crazed_ss]

Highlights mine. That puts it pretty succinctly, "stop or we turn you into a parking lot."

Umm.. The Operation is called "Iraqi Freedom" not "Iraqi Genocide"

I am truly shocked by the amount of people that seem to advocate mass genocide as a solution to Iraq. What would be the purpose in killing so many people? If I Iraq is that jacked up, just bring our guys home and cut our losses. No need to kill millions of people because we're frustrated with some insurgents.

 

[Stinger]

Who exactly would we nuke?



(and the ones we didn't support with air support were Kurds, and they are doing just fine, if'n the Turks don't invade, that is)

 

[Don Gwinn]

We were fighting a war against Japan.

We are not fighting a war against Iraq.

It should explain itself. We aren't going to wipe out all the Iraqis because most of them are not our enemies. But don't let me spoil your fun.