Blood on Our Hands?

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So here's an Interesting thought...

what if we had the bomb gefore Germany surrendered?

would we have dropped it on them?

and how would that have affected the Russians and the ensuing Cold War?

hmmmmm
 
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Yes, we would have used it. We might have ended the war pretty quickly after that (especially if Hitler was killed in an atomic strike).

My uneducated guess: we probably would have let the Russians occupy part of Germany, but if we won in late '44 (for example), there would not have been Soviet troops positioned throughout eastern Europe. If we were lucky, there mght have been no Cold War, or we might have won sooner.

Caleb Carr had an interesting essay like that in one of the "What If?" history books. But instead of an atomic bomb, his counterfactual was if Eisenhower had told our troops to keep pressing east at a critical point in 1944.
 
Years back I read where the "Should we have dropped the Bomb?" question was asked of the Filipinos, Koreans, Chinese, et al.

They replied, "Why did you drop only two?"

In Aug, of '44, the Japs issued a "Kill Everybody" command to the prison commanders, if Japan was invaded. So, not even counting invasion casualties, about 200,000 lives of allied prisoners were saved when they dropped the bomb. Sounds like a fair trade to me.

As the Taliban and Saddamites are finding out, it's not a good idea to get the Americans p!$$ed off.
 
This is a different point of view, lifted from an old Bladeforums thread by Ken Cook (I think you can find him now at USN).
Some days I feel the same way.

Original thread:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=181908

I don't pretend to have the answers Hugh.

FWIW, I am vehemently "Anti-Nuke."

What? A "Hawk" like me being anti-nuke? It can't BE!


It's true though.

I spent ten years in uniform, both as a Soldier and a Marine, and then as now, I was a thinking man.

Have you ever stopped to ask yourself "What is a Nuclear weapon?"

A Nuclear weapon is a weapon designed and intended to be used against non-combatants. Civilians. Men, women, children, Doctors, Nurses, Burger Flippers, Tire Changers, Car Washers, Maids, Mothers, etc.

As a military man, (I no longer wear the uniform but I will always be a military man and a Marine.) I have no problem with the idea of killing soldiers of any opposing force. None what-so-ever. But no power on earth could ever persuade me to wage war on civilians and this is the only possible use of any "strategic" nuclear arsenal.

These are the things I was taught as a Marine.
(Interestingly, I was not taught these things as a Soldier.)

The professional warrior does no more damage than that required to complete the mission.

The professional warrior does not target non-combatants.

The professional warrior will not target hospitals, churches, or schools.

Doing these things constitutes commission of War Crimes and the Marine Corps will always seek out and vigourously punish war criminals regardless of what uniform they wear.

I loathe all that a nuclear missle represents. I despise all that it stands for, and everything it symbolizes whether people understand that symbolism or not.

Having said all of that however;
I understand that as long as anyone has them, we must have them also.

I understand that we must squander billions of dollars in an arms race that no one in their right mind would ever want to win.

I understand that if one side ever acheives a clear "superiority" in that arms race, that they will probably blow the ever loving Hell out of whoever's on the other side of the pond.

US?
Would WE do that?
To date, the United States in the only nation on Earth that has ever deployed nuclear weapons against an enemy in war.
We did it twice.

Many argue that we did the right thing by dropping the bomb. That countless thousands, possibly millions of lives were saved.

Bullshyte.

The question is, "who" died so that "who else" could live?

Easy.

Civilians died so that soldiers wouldn't have to.
That's called a War Crime.

Would we have had to "take Japan in house to house fighting" as has often been said in an effort to "explain away" our use of nuclear weapons?

I don't see why. Japan was out of money, out of friends, and out of fuel. If we'd blockaded their major ports, they'd have had no choice but to surrender.

But we wanted something flashy.

Boom.

Now?
Well now the Genie is out of the bottle and will never be put back.

I once heard someone say that living during the Cold War was like walking around drenched in gasoline and everyone in the world had a match.

Nothing's changed.

So build missles, build anti missle missles, build anti anti missle missles, and then build more missles. Toss in a few suitcase sized "Christmas Crackers" for the kiddies and don't sweat the small stuff, it's just a matter of time til someone screws up and kills all of us.

Fock nuclear weapons.
 
Saying we shouldn't have dropped the atomic bombs on Japan is basically an appeal to magic.

Such a belief is based on the false premise that any politician in the oval office in 1945 could have done anything BUT nuke Japan.

It is based on the further false premise that any of the belligerents in 1939-1945 would refrain from conventional strategic bombing, which was developed to the point in 1945 where it could wipe out more people in a single large raid than the nukes used on Hiroshima and Nagasaki did. Put another way, the tiny number of atomic bombs we had in 1945 weren't a way to kill more people, but merely to do it in a novel way with fewer planes that would have a greater psychological impact on the enemy. Check the numbers: 100,000+ Japanese were roasted alive in one firebombing raid in March 1945.

It is based on yet another false premise, that a conventional invasion wouldn't wipe out vast numbers of civilians as an inevitable side-effect... a simple non-possibility with 1945 military technologies and doctrines (see what happened in Berlin in 1945 for details).

It further requires you to ignore that Japan had the most advanced biological weapon program on Earth in 1945, a program that had been used in 1945 to decimate various villages in China, and to belive that they would not use such weapons on the beachhead of a U.S. invasion of the Japanese mainland.
 
As a military man, (I no longer wear the uniform but I will always be a military man and a Marine.) I have no problem with the idea of killing soldiers of any opposing force. None what-so-ever. But no power on earth could ever persuade me to wage war on civilians and this is the only possible use of any "strategic" nuclear arsenal.

These are the things I was taught as a Marine.
(Interestingly, I was not taught these things as a Soldier.)

The professional warrior does no more damage than that required to complete the mission.

The professional warrior does not target non-combatants.

The professional warrior will not target hospitals, churches, or schools.

Doing these things constitutes commission of War Crimes and the Marine Corps will always seek out and vigourously punish war criminals regardless of what uniform they wear.

I loathe all that a nuclear missle represents. I despise all that it stands for, and everything it symbolizes whether people understand that symbolism or not.
Noble sentiment made possible by the passage of time, change in war tactics, improvement in technology, and a change in the general understanding of warfare all brought about the retrospective of the horrors of war.

Again, explain why the destruction of Hiroshma and Nagisaki by a nuclear device is fundamentally different from a moral stand point from the destruction of Dresden and Tokyo by conventional firebombing tactics. WWII was an age where both sides experimented with strategic bombing and it limits. Both sides deliberately lit up civilians. Both sides deliberately sought to introduce unmitigated horror on opposing civilian populations. Both sides were doing things today we'd describe as war crimes. . . . . .but you simply can not take todays definitions and retroactively apply them to previous historical events.

I hope we as a society never, ever find ourselves in a position again where it is kill or be killed on such a massive scale. I hope, but I don't believe. We will at some point in our future be faced with the same moral dilemma only worse. We will no doubt have to make decisions we do not want to make. More than likely we will be face with the absolute horror of asymetric warfare where we are faced with a couple of smoking holes where cities existed or wastelands because of god-awlful biological agents created by stoneage cave dwellers. Our decision will be to exercise asymetric warfare in reverse or simply forgive and forget. Human nature tells me forgive and forget will not win.
 
I personally don't know of anyone who loves atomic weapons dropped on cities any more than anyone loved their M-16 as an infantry man to take out a village in Viet Nam.
Yet, every time they patrolled past it, they lost one of their patrol. Nobody is wearing a uniform there, but you know they are setting the man traps while you're not looking. Some may be civilians, and some may be the bomb makers and snipers, so you do your job-not because it makes you proud, but because you have to. You're gonna call in the artillery if it gets rough or air strikes if needed. Maybe you're not dropping nukes, but you will never like that part of you for being forced to do what you had to.

I'm not about to second guess Harry Truman for dropping the A-bombs. For one thing, I wasn't there. Secondly, he had a whole lot of men and women to be responsible for, and if it came out that he had the nuke and invaded anyway, with the large loss of life on both sides-that, I would call criminal. If I am called a beast or a war criminal for doing so-by all means, roll the dice and take me to trial, because my job is the welfare of Americans. First. Last. And Always. I heard one of the pilots over Dresden asked in an interview as to whether he felt any guilt. No, he said. He doubted there were any Jews down there.
 
Bout a year or so ago I did a plumbing service call for a real old guy. Shrunken, aged, no spark. Pointed me towards the kitchen where the leak was and said just take it easy on me (meaning the bill).

Well he had his house all done up in militaria (WWII). Pics, dusty medals, all that stuff. When I was finishing up, I had to say something, so I did. You's in the war huh? He immediately brightened up and started talking. Asked if I had a few minutes to listen to a story or two. I did.

Seems he was on one of the planes or one of the ships, can't remember, that was involved or near the atomic bombs that hit Japan. Says them cities burned like tissue paper. He saw it firsthand. He kept making the point that alot of folks think we didn't need to kill all those japs and they just dont know what they're talkin about, we saved a lot of lives son, he said. They wouldn't a stopped, we had to, and we did it by God!

That guys spark was back and he sat on the edge of his chair recounting the good and the bad of the war. Very animated. He showed me his Garand (Not dusty I noticed!). We talked for two hours until I just had to leave. I told him I was honored to meet him and hear his firsthand account of his experiance. He said he was glad that I was interested. There's a lot to be learned from history if you get the straight of it, he said.

At the time, I didn't understand what he meant by we saved a lot of lives by dropping the bombs on them. I was feeling too much respect for the man to provoke a political debate or asking dumb questions, so let it go and let him talk.

This thread answered that for me and now I understand exactly what he meant. It was a moving experiance to hear a firsthand account, and it just about brang tears to my eyes remembering and recounting it to you all.

I know I made his day just taking the time to let him talk. Keep that in mind next time an oldster asks if you got a few minutes to spare to talk. You never know who you might be talking to... :)
 
(Waitone)
Again, explain why the destruction of Hiroshma and Nagisaki by a nuclear device is fundamentally different from a moral stand point from the destruction of Dresden and Tokyo by conventional firebombing tactics.

It isn't.
In some ways the targeting of civilians was more blatant in the firebombings than with the atomic bomb. An atomic bomb is pretty much all-or-nothing (and back then they didn't have "little" ones).

Somebody made an aside about Jews in Dresden. Amazingly there were a few dozen still there. There was a pretty famous one, a writer named Klemperer (no, not the Hogan's Heroes guy ;) ) who was nearly arrested, but managed to escape because of the firebombing.

A lot of these decisions are covered in Richard Rhodes, "The Making of the Atomic Bomb".
The Army Air Force was sending a third bomb to the Pacific, planning to use it a week or so after Nagasaki.
Truman ordered them not to use it without checking with him, to avoid more killing of civilians.
By the way, it took longer than we had expected for the news to get out after the first bombing. Most of Hiroshima's communications were destroyed in the bombing, and it took a few days before people outside the city understood the scale of destruction.
It is also true that some of the high Japanese military thought that the first bomb was a fluke.

Edward: great work!! There isn't too much time left to get those WW2 stories from the guys who lived it.
 
(Waitone)
Again, explain why the destruction of Hiroshma and Nagisaki by a nuclear device is fundamentally different from a moral stand point from the destruction of Dresden and Tokyo by conventional firebombing tactics.

It isn't.
In some ways the targeting of civilians was more blatant in the firebombings than with the atomic bomb. An atomic bomb is pretty much all-or-nothing (and back then they didn't have "little" ones).

Somebody made an aside about Jews in Dresden. Amazingly there were a few dozen still there. There was a pretty famous one, a writer named Klemperer (no, not the Hogan's Heroes guy ;) ) who was nearly arrested, but managed to escape because of the firebombing.

A lot of these decisions are covered in Richard Rhodes, "The Making of the Atomic Bomb".
The Army Air Force was sending a third bomb to the Pacific, planning to use it a week or so after Nagasaki.
Truman ordered them not to use it without checking with him, to avoid more killing of civilians.
By the way, it took longer than we had expected for the news to get out after the first bombing. Most of Hiroshima's communications were destroyed in the bombing, and it took a few days before people outside the city understood the scale of destruction.
It is also true that some of the high Japanese military thought that the first bomb was a fluke.

Edward: great work!! There isn't too much time left to get those WW2 stories from the guys who lived it.
 
Dilletante,

welcome aboard. Hope you stick around.

Interesting article you posted. Guy sorta did a Smedley Butler. His reasoning holds together until he gets to historic fact, then falls apart: saying that as soon as one side achieves clear superiority in thearms race, it will blow 'the loving hell' out of the other side...we did it twice.

But we had clear superiority by '89 and have had it since, and have been repeatedly attacked since then, in some cases by organizations we could locate, e.g. the Taliban in Afghanistan, and we didn't nuke 'em. And we had clear superiority for a good while after WWII before the Rosenbergs clued in the Russians, and we didn't nuke them, either.

The deciding factor: AMERICA had the bomb, not Russia, Japan, or Germany. It so pleased God that the bomb would first be held by the one nation least likely to use it callously, and to withold it form the others until such time as America's clear superiority held them in check and kept them from using it as they surely would have done if they had nothing to fear.

Yes, it could be argued that our use of the bomb was callous. It could be argued, but it is wrong. And our subsequent handling of our overwhelming power bears that out.
 
The Japanese surrenedered when we made it known they could keep their emperor, had we not made that concession they would never have agreed.
Dropping the bomb was not an easy thing then or a quick decions as most would believe. Truman brooded over the decision. (see his diary entries from July 16 1945 on)
There was a debate over whether or not to use it (remember there were only two) If something went wrong there was a chance to actually strengthen the Japanese resolve (who were talking peace).
The federal council of churches petitioned Truman not to drop the second bomb when they heard about Hiroshima. They were in the minority but there was already some feeling of regret.
Many people were caught up in strong emotions during the WWII. Hatred of the Japanese led to one of the worst moment in America's history with the concentration caps out west for Americans of Japanese descent. Logic and reason were not the order of the day. It was a bad deal all around.
Stopping the war was only one of Truman's goals.
Truman also hoped to make a statement to the Russians, who were slow to join the fight in the Pacific.
There was a group of officials who argued it was stupid to spend all this money on a project and not drop the bomb.
The point of this is that there is no such thing as a black and a white when it comes to history, anyone who believes so hasn't seen all the sides. Whether America was right or wrong doesn't really matter any more, it is done now and just like Russia can't take back her Stalin years and Germany can't take back its Holocaust, America can't take back the bombing.
I think everyone can agree that WWII wasn't the highlight of human history.
 
Ol'Badger said:

Some Buddhist scolded me once during an argument by saying “You call yourself a Christian and still drop bombs!†Imagine what we would drop if we weren’t Christians!

Buddhists? :D
 
Daddy told me when I was in grade school "Never START a fight, but always FINISH it."

The quiet and refined gentle people of Japan STARTED a fight.

In Hiroshima and Nagasaki we FINISHED it.

Could we have done it with men holding M1 Garands? Sure. But why kill our people when killing theirs works as well or better.

Good for the U.S.A.
 
Years ago during the NV War my Father (WWII vet) summed it up this way, "You fight a war to win it".

I'm not too sure that might not be the "Golden Rule of Warfare" and what historians think 50 years later matters not one whit when the next war begins.

Not too many history books make it into the foxholes.
S-
 
This boils down to a question about how wars end: does the agressor simply get to walk away after it is going badly (when we had pounded the japanese fleet into submission) or is the agressor forced to surrender unconditionally?

Looking at history, the answer is obvious: even when we fought ourselves in the Civil War, the losing side was not afforded an easy out at the end.

The point is that it is a documented fact that we found the defensive plans that japan would have used to defend it's islands and how many troops would be deployed. We can accurately say that we would have lost in excess of one million Americans in the conquering of the mainland of Japan.

The Japanese whiners we have been forced to stroke out here in kali because of the "war crimes" against the Japanese Nationals who were interred in camps during WWII keep saying we should have just sailed home, that japan was already defeated.

Maybe, but that is not how wars are fought, and it is not how they end. If you don't like the way wars are conducted, the solution is to not start them.

BTW: in partial answer to the "reparations for internment" song which is heard endlessly out here, I would offer this: the precision with which the attack on Pearl harbor was carried out and the timing as to when all ships were in port showed the japanese had spies living there. They also had spies on our mainland. Was it extreme paranoia to inter all suspected persons of Japanese ancestry? Yes, but being attacked and dragged into war fosters paranoia, and if you don't like that.... don't start wars.
 
Somebody made an aside about Jews in Dresden. Amazingly there were a few dozen still there.

True. There were also many thousands of Chinese and Philipino slave laborers who were inadvertently killed in the bombings of Hiroshima and nagasaki. It's unfortunate for sure, but the moral responsibilty lies with those who used them as slave labor (expressly forbidden by the geneva convention), not with the bombing of military targets.
 
Some argue that the U.S. could have demonstrated the bomb on an uninhabited island......

I howl with laughter every time I hear this ridiculous proposal. We dropped the first bomb on Hiroshima, they saw the devastation, and still refused to surrender. Hence, the need to drop the second.

Yet, somehow, the apologists now claim that demonstrating it on an uninhabited islnd would have caused them to surrender?

Talk about re-writing history!
 
slave labor (expressly forbidden by the geneva convention),
Did Japan even sign that and similar conventions?
And did the US?


My grandma wasn't in Dresden, but she was one of the refugees in Chemnitz when it was bombed just for the sake of killing as many civilians as possible. She barely escaped from the cellar she was hiding in when the liquid phosphor was flowing in.
But I don't hear her moaning and whining like the Japanese do every <beep> year.
 
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