Blood on Our Hands?

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FRIZ

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The New York Times
August 5, 2003

Blood on Our Hands?
By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/05/opinion/05KRIS.html

Tomorrow will mark the anniversary of one of the most morally contentious events of the 20th century, the atomic bombing of Hiroshima. And after 58 years, there's an emerging consensus: we Americans have blood on our hands.

There has been a chorus here and abroad that the U.S. has little moral standing on the issue of weapons of mass destruction because we were the first to use the atomic bomb. As Nelson Mandela said of Americans in a speech on Jan. 31, "Because they decided to kill innocent people in Japan, who are still suffering from that, who are they now to pretend that they are the policeman of the world?"

The traditional American position, that our intention in dropping the bombs on Hiroshima and then Nagasaki was to end the war early and save lives, has been poked full of holes. Revisionist historians like Gar Alperovitz argue persuasively that Washington believed the bombing militarily unnecessary (except to establish American primacy in the postwar order) because, as the U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey put it in 1946, "in all probability" Japan would have surrendered even without the atomic bombs.

Yet this emerging consensus is, I think, profoundly mistaken.

While American scholarship has undercut the U.S. moral position, Japanese historical research has bolstered it. The Japanese scholarship, by historians like Sadao Asada of Doshisha University in Kyoto, notes that Japanese wartime leaders who favored surrender saw their salvation in the atomic bombing. The Japanese military was steadfastly refusing to give up, so the peace faction seized upon the bombing as a new argument to force surrender.

"We of the peace party were assisted by the atomic bomb in our endeavor to end the war," Koichi Kido, one of Emperor Hirohito's closest aides, said later.

Wartime records and memoirs show that the emperor and some of his aides wanted to end the war by summer 1945. But they were vacillating and couldn't prevail over a military that was determined to keep going even if that meant, as a navy official urged at one meeting, "sacrificing 20 million Japanese lives."

The atomic bombings broke this political stalemate and were thus described by Mitsumasa Yonai, the navy minister at the time, as a "gift from heaven."

Without the atomic bombings, Japan would have continued fighting by inertia. This would have meant more firebombing of Japanese cities and a ground invasion, planned for November 1945, of the main Japanese islands. The fighting over the small, sparsely populated islands of Okinawa had killed 14,000 Americans and 200,000 Japanese, and in the main islands the toll would have run into the millions.

"The atomic bomb was a golden opportunity given by heaven for Japan to end the war," Hisatsune Sakomizu, the chief cabinet secretary in 1945, said later.

Some argue that the U.S. could have demonstrated the bomb on an uninhabited island, or could have encouraged surrender by promising that Japan could keep its emperor. Yes, perhaps, and we should have tried. We could also have waited longer before dropping the second bomb, on Nagasaki.

But, sadly, the record suggests that restraint would not have worked. The Japanese military ferociously resisted surrender even after two atomic bombings on major cities, even after Soviet entry into the war, even when it expected another atomic bomb — on Tokyo.

One of the great tales of World War II concerns an American fighter pilot named Marcus McDilda who was shot down on Aug. 8 and brutally interrogated about the atomic bombs. He knew nothing, but under torture he "confessed" that the U.S. had 100 more nuclear weapons and planned to destroy Tokyo "in the next few days." The war minister informed the cabinet of this grim news — but still adamantly opposed surrender. In the aftermath of the atomic bombing, the emperor and peace faction finally insisted on surrender and were able to prevail.

It feels unseemly to defend the vaporizing of two cities, events that are regarded in some quarters as among the most monstrous acts of the 20th century. But we owe it to history to appreciate that the greatest tragedy of Hiroshima was not that so many people were incinerated in an instant, but that in a complex and brutal world, the alternatives were worse.
 
Those bombings saved untold numbers of lives-US and allied soldiers AS WELL AS Japanese-and I believe that to be a true and verifiable fact!

How can we know? DO NOT read history by revisionist liberal 'historians' who write history from the perspective of the current liberal, bleeding heart revisionist theorists.

Instead, read history from the pens of people who WERE THERE AT THE TIME. When you read first hand accounts of Japenese soldiers' wives. While their men were away at war, the (the wives!) were making plans to meet the invaders (US and alllies) on the beaches with nothing more than swords and knives!

Read the accounts of our Thunderbolts downing 15-20 Japanese Zeros in air battles with no losses AND the Japanese REPAINTING the zeros with US colors and hauling them around the country showing off their "WIN".

Considering the supreme arrogance the Japanese had toward their military and their inability to lose, (that is the reason we wiped out thier air force: their pilots were 'so good' they did not begin a training program for replacements till far too late) considering their religion and government were inseperable and based in the Emporor who could do no wrong and considering that nobody had the guts to report the actual military status to him, THEY WOULD STILL BE FIGHTING IF NOT FOR THE BOMBS! Even after the first one, they, in reality, said-BOY THAT WAS BAD. GOOD THING YOU ONLY HAVE ONE!.

I believe 'we did good'.
 
Critter-

That's exactly my take on history - we have a bunch of people putting 21st century (usually liberal but not always) moral and ethical values on things that happened in a different time.

Human life has not always been valued as sacred. What about the 6 million Jews who also died in WW II? I'm reading a book about the Pacific War called "With The Old Breed", and if the atrocities committed on our troops had anything to do with it, I'm sure Americans AT THAT TIME had little moral hesitancy to drop those bombs.

We also saw it after 9/11 when President Bush accidently said "Crusade".
The leftists howled and screamed about how the evil West had persecuted the noble Arabs. And this was about events 1,000 years ago!




:banghead:
 
Well it is a Crusade! We keep getting attacked for what we belive or do! Heck, and Arab that I work with keeps telling me how much better this Country will be if we do this and that. Well ya know what? I like working for a woman and with women! I like my drink and a well done Pork Chop! If you don't like it, well tuff! We might start dropping bigger bombs on you.

The World should count its blessing that the Biggest, Baddest MOFO on the block is the US of A! Who has forgiven more past enemies than us? Who bluids then back up after knocking then down into the dirt? No One!

OK. I'm done ranting. Sorry.
 
Why don't you let me simplify this for you:


ANYTHING the US does, domestically or abroad to defend her interests and the lives of her citizens and soldiers...


IS WRONG AND EVIL.


No matter what we decide to do IT'S WRONG AND IMMORAL!


Because we're America. Because we are the richest and the freest (although we're losing that) nation in history. It is immoral, wrong and evil to enjoy affluence and freedom when so many in the world don't have that.

It is OUR FAULT that they don't have that.

Simply by existing we are EXPLOITING them. Even if we developed the necessary values and worked centuries to achieve our success and they sit sunk in superstition and raped by dictators who are from their own ranks -- it's still OUR FAULT!


We were wrong to use atom bombs on the Japanese then; we're wrong to go after the Islamo fascists now.

When attacked, the moral thing for us to do is wring our hands and ask ourselves how WE caused our poot attackers to hurt us. We must have hurt their feelings, somehow. Like by simply daring to live and breathe on the planet.



And it is also imperative to twist any and all of our actions out of context, to ignore the then current circumstances no matter how desperate and to apply only the highest of utopian "ethical" standards to our people who were fighting for their lives and to preserve our country and our freedom.


It also helps a lot to do all of the above and to decry "violence" generically, while enjoying the protection of, "...men who stand ready in the night to do violence on our behalf."



Now can you see how simple all this is?



P.S. This formula can apply without revision to Israel.




matis
 
So what if we have blood on our hands? What gov't doesn't, either directly or indirectly (but mostly directly?)

Tough toenails. That's life (and death.) Deal with it.
 
IIRC, after the first atom bomb was dropped it didnt make much of a difference to the military officers prosecuting the war.....they thought, "hey another city bombed, woopee"
BSR
 
Most folks in countries that were attacked, invaded or colonized by Japan, i.e., Australia, China, Korea, Vietnam, the Phillipines etc. still applaud our use of the A-bomb on Japan and wish we had dropped many more on them.
 
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I didn't read this past the first two lines .... :barf:

So does this Nicholas fellow remember Pearl Harbor?

For that, and the atrocities the Japanese committed in China, we should have melted all of the Japanese homeland. Left it as a barren waste for centuries as a monument.

But we were nice, instead.
 
I had cousins imprisoned by the Japanese in Santo Tomas in Manila. Later, I went to school with kids with similar experiences in Santo Tomas and Cabanatuan.

As far as I'm concerned, "Made in America. Tested in Japan." is good enough for me.

Forgive? Yeah, well...Forget? Forget Pearl Harbor? Nanking? Manila? Nope. Not this ol' hoss.

Art
 
Another nitpicky historical reality which the revisionists willfuly overlook is the fact that the US Air Force killed more Japanese civilians by fire bombing Tokyo and other large cities with 1000 plane raids using conventional incendiaries than were killed in the two atomic bombings combined.

Yet, no one focuses on the firebombing campaigns because, well, they didn't involve nukes.

In fact, check out how many German civilians were killed by conventional bombing campaigns, and compare that number to how many were killed by the two nuke bombs.

But then again, to revisionist historians with political agendas, sheer numbers of deaths don't mean much. It's all in how the facts can be used to promote a specific outlook.

hillbilly
 
My father was in the Philappines when the bombs were dropped and the war with Japan suddenly ended. Coincidence? Okay, if you say so, but I don't believe it for a moment.

President Truman, wherever you are...

THANK YOU.

John
 
TallPine,

You should go back and read the rest of it. The author starts by presenting some statements, then goes on to try and refute them.
 
Hey folks, it helps your credibility if you read the whole thing. :rolleyes:

It feels unseemly to defend the vaporizing of two cities, events that are regarded in some quarters as among the most monstrous acts of the 20th century. But we owe it to history to appreciate that the greatest tragedy of Hiroshima was not that so many people were incinerated in an instant, but that in a complex and brutal world, the alternatives were worse.
 
Well - several thought here...

First, I'm not going to forget Pearl Harbor either, but
Yep, was a 'sneak attack' partially because the Japanese
criptographer didn't get the 'declaration of war'
decoded/translated before the bombing actually started -
NOT that getting the declaration presented sooner
would have changed anything or justified the bombing.
Also, Pearl Harbor was PARTIALLY in response to the U.S.
stopping the sale of oil to Japan after Japan announced its
alliance with the Axis powers.
Not trying to justify ANYTHING here, just stating some things
that SEEM to be left out of school history books so please
leave the flamethrowers on standby !!!
Now, the Japanese were NOT going to surrender and invasion
estimates at that time were one-half to a million casualties.
Best line I ever heard (yes- in a movie but ..) was that 'the
Japanese would eat rocks before they would surrender that
island'
So, something had to be done (unless you feel the war should
have gone on forever).
Ergo, the atomic bomb - Yes it ended the war.
The reason it was used twice was 1) the Japanese did not
surrender after the 1st one and 2) they had to be shown
that the we could do this again and again and again if
necessary until there was NOTHING left of Japan.
I DO NOT FOR ONE MOMENT believe that what the U.S did was
wrong. It was WAR !! NOT a time to make nice and talk
pretty (which is about the only thing the U.N. does - but
that's another rant !!!).
 
Also, Pearl Harbor was PARTIALLY in response to the U.S. stopping the sale of oil to Japan after Japan announced its alliance with the Axis powers.

Not trying to justify ANYTHING here …

It’s called reading comprehension. Give it a try. :D

~G. Fink
 
All the monday morning quarterbacking by the revisionists - woulda, shoulda, etc. means bupkis to me. If we have to do it over again, I would do it. :neener: to all jealous rodents! :neener:
 
Gee! And all along I thought that UC Berkely found that liberals were more nuanced and could see things with more ambiguity. Not black and white. :rolleyes:

Pretty pathetic when one has to refer to revisionist history to support one's point.
 
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