The realities of the street

[strambo]

OTOH, the "crimes" one could get charged with for following his advice are misdemeanors...and you can (via your lawyer) state why you were in reasonable fear of imminent bodily harm and you did what you did.

I have never fanned out on someone while walking with my friends or done any of the other things that criminals do during their "interview" or assessment phase in victim selection. Has anyone here ever acted in the manner armed robbers do just prior to a hold up to total strangers? Might be worth the long-shot misdemeanor charge (with a solid defense as to why)...something to think about at least.

I think the average law abiding citizen is more likely to hesitate until it is too late after they have seen enough indication they are about to be victimized and have that gut feeling something bad is about to go down. My read on his advice is it is trying to counteract that, the moment you realize you are about to be victimized ACT!

I think the much more trained and experienced members are envisioning more innocent circumstances than he meant. I think the situations he is envisioning are obvious enough that anyone here would act similarly, there is enough evidence they are bad guys about to do bad things, so act. Don't hesitate or wait for the rock solid, absolute, no doubt proof positive, ironclad evidence, because once their gun is in your face you are way behind the power curve.

That's my take on it anyway.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Strambo: OTOH, the "crimes" one could get charged with for following his advice are misdemeanors...

Not in states such as Arizona in which the unlawful display of a firearm constitutes aggravated assault. Or Florida....

...and you can (via your lawyer) state why you were in reasonable fear of imminent bodily harm and you did what you did.

Yes, if you can.

I have never fanned out on someone while walking with my friends or done any of the other things that criminals do during their "interview" or assessment phase in victim selection.

Are they friends?

Has anyone here ever acted in the manner armed robbers do just prior to a hold up to total strangers?

I have left a store walking next to someone, and turned and headed to my car while he headed towrd hs. Could look very worrisome to someone else....

Might be worth the long-shot misdemeanor charge (with a solid defense as to why)...something to think about at least.

If someone toward whom I am walking looks at me and reaches for his firearm, his risk extends way beyond that of a "long-shot misdemeanor charge".

I think the average law abiding citizen is more likely to hesitate until it is too late after they have seen enough indication they are about to be victimized and have that gut feeling something bad is about to go down. My read on his advice is it is trying to counteract that, the moment you realize you are about to be victimized ACT!

Yes, but taking his advice literally could get one shot.

 

[JERRY]

read and heed the OP link. this is good advise but not all inclusive.

 

[Vermonter]

Essential reading about assessing situations http://gavindebecker.com/resources/book/the_gift_of_fear/

 

[SouthernBoy]

All quotes posted by Kleanbore

I would not advise anyone to place any reliance upon the fact that a self described "burned out LEO" may be unaware of criminals having reported people who have drawn on them; it has happened, and one had better have a basis for having concluded that the presentation of the firearm had been necessary and lawful. And, of course, someone else may call in the report.

I have known of a former FBI agent who also advised that if you kill your assailant and no one is around, just leave. Like you, I do not subscribe to this advice. Police investigations are pretty good at turning up pertinent information and I would hate to have done something like this and then hear a knock on my door three or four days later and then try to explain my innocence in a court of law. So yes, I would also try to call 911 as soon as possible to report the event.... even if nothing came out of it other than me starting to draw my sidearm.

Seeing "two guys .. .approaching you in a parking lot" and interpreting changes in direction as a possible "classic fan out maneuver" is certainly something to be wary about, but if you "indicate you have a weapon by clearing your gun hand and fanning your jacket at them" you just might end up in serious trouble.

The operative phrase here is "just might". One may also not be in any serious trouble. In my state, the onus is on the perp but we do have a brandishing statute that in my opinion, has tended to be poorly and loosely interpreted. When I say the onus is on the perp, what I mean is that what counts is the perception of the intended/potential or actual victim as to what they believed was about to take place. Seeing certain behavioral profiles and actions should put anyone on notice that something is not right and they had better be ready for anything. Of course, this also implies that they had better be able to articulate what caused their perception.

Regarding "They are not discouraged. DRAW!", that's terrible advice, unless you have a basis for reasonably believing that you are in fact faced with an imminent serious threat.

Conversely, it is excellent advice if the perception of the victim is such that they do believe they are about to experience serious bodily harm to their person.

He goes on to say "Then you can just put your gun back in the holster and go back to whatever you were doing like nothing happened. Why? Because nothing did happen. A happening is when shots are fired." Good Lord! If a person other than a sworn officer draws a firearm on someone without lawful justification, he has committed a crime. That action may have been witnessed by others or recorded by cameras. The actor had better be the first to report it.

Once again, it is a matter of the victim's perception and yes... get on the horn to the police and report this because something did happen. And you might just prevent someone else from becoming a victim of your perceived assailant(s).

Now we get to "If you are somewhere you are supposed to be and someone appears who is not supposed to be there like a closed business show him the end of your gun." You had better have a lot more in the way of justification than your interpretation of appearances.

There may be some inferred things going on here and as such, he is correct. If you own a business and someone has hidden in the bathroom until closing so that they could do bad things, then pulling your gun is a wise move. Your business is much like your home in this regard. If you found someone in your home unknown to you and you know they don't belong there, get that gun into play immediately.

This fellow's advice can get one into serious trouble. Legal trouble is but one aspect. You just might end up getting shot in justifiable self defense.

Do keep in mind he is speaking from the street... reality if you will, about how things really are out there. The problem with laws and their consideration when you are about to become a victim is that they can muddy up, confuse, and make you hesitate when what you should really be doing is acting to quell the encounter. We are left to questioning ourselves, "Is this real; am I imagining this? Is this person [or persons] about to do me serious harm?". And while we're asking ourselves this, time is ticking and the perp is moving in on his victim. It's not any easy thing to decide and unfortunately that tends to get good people hurt or killed.

Yes, you need to be aware and prudent, and you need to be able to draw and fire very quickly and effectively without hesitation, but you had better have an articulable reason for doing so, and you had better avoid any action or inaction after the fact that might well be interpreted as an indication of guilt.

Under the laws of our states (I'm sure all of them) to one degree or another, this is all true. Police are not stupid. They can pretty much tell when they arrive at a scene whether or not the person who had to do something extreme was truly a victim or something else. It's not like they haven't seen this before. "I was attacked by this person and I had to defend myself. If you don't mind, I am pretty shaken up by it so any more questions will have to be asked when my attorney is present".

None of this is easy and my advice to people who are hesitant or unsure about the laws of their state or how they should handle an extreme encounter is not to carry a firearm. And if you pull that gun out on an assailant, or assailants, and they don't take off immediately upon seeing it, shoot. By this, I am not at all suggesting that you pull your gun and then stand there while counting to three to see if they will run. But time after time, we hear of reports where as soon as the intended victim pulls a gun, the GB's take off in a hurry. This of course implies that the requisite criteria have been met for you to pull it out in the first place.

 

[SouthernBoy]

In my state, this is the test of whether or not the use of deadly force is justifiable;

"If you have a reasonably held, good faith belief, based on objective fact, that you or another innocent person is faced with the imminent threat of serious bodily injury, then you are authorized to use such force as is reasonably necessary, up to and including deadly force, to stop the threat."

 

[JRH6856]

The most important thing he has to say is that the criminal mindset is very different, even alien, from the mindset of most law-abiding citizens. And not recognizing and understanding this can get you killed. His advice on how to react to that difference is questionable.

 

[strambo]

"The Gift of Fear" is excellent reading and goes to the heart of this matter.

My hand to hand instructors always have people ask them "how do you know when it is OK to use this?" Their answer is "If you have to ask yourself if it is OK, the answer is No."

If you are consciously debating whether or not to crush someone's throat, stomp their knee then stomp on their neck until they stop twitching....it is NOT OK!!!

When you are truly in fear for life, in all likelihood you won't have time to consciously ask if you should draw or not etc.

Kleanbore
I have left a store walking next to someone, and turned and headed to my car while he headed towrd hs. Could look very worrisome to someone else....

Really? This sure is a stretch. Who would think 2 people exiting a store and heading different directions to their car looks "very worrisome?"

In a real situation the subconscious is processing a massive amount of cues and data. Most of it just gets filtered out as irrelevant lest we go insane. In a violent situation, these cues get synthesized and we are given a signal we are in danger before the conscious mind really knows why (in many cases).

So, in the parking lot example, people exiting a store are together by the nature of their only being a single opening. They are fanning out to their separate cars by random parking chance and the size of the lot. They are not giving off any other cues that they might want to attack you, they are giving off cues like people walking to their cars.

Now, turn that 180 degrees. 2 sketchy individuals are coming at you together from a direction deep in the lot, then in a coordinated manner fan out. Gee, I guess 2 sketchy (but well-meaning, can't judge by appearances) people for some random reason are walking together, then with no correlation to you, split up opposite you for innocent reasons, yet they are no longer walking in a path to the store? Right.

I didn't write the article, so I can't be sure what he meant. Again, my take is when you get that sick feeling in your gut and fight/flight is kicking in based on the cues your subconscious has processed, act.
You aren't going to get this sense of imminent danger from an innocent situation, the cues won't all be there. I guess it is possible, but highly unlikely.

If I'm in that lot and the sketchy dudes are obviously fanning out on me, instead of hand-wringing because there is some far-fetched scenario where they might be innocent and waiting to see a weapon, I'm gonna at least acquire a firing grip while moving to cover and asses.

From a legal perspective, this hypothetical gives us all 3 elements to be in fear of some sort of bodily harm... Means: 2 adult males-capable of beating me to death. Proximity: A few feet and closing. Demonstrated intent: They are surrounding me and advancing towards me.

Enough to shoot? Perhaps, depends on what other cues are there that a typed hypothetical can't capture. Enough to initiate action, yeah.

I have been many places in this world from the safest place I ever felt (Singapore) to the shadiest (PSD team leader in Baghdad '05) and many in between. If anything, I seem to be pretty slow to react when others are starting to stress because I don't have all the cues, something is missing and I'm not getting the panic alarm. Yeah, he's 10ft away, out of his car with an AK47 on Route Irish...but he isn't oriented at us at all. Let's just turn around, rear vehicle cover in case he orients on us.

The more training I get the less I worry about over-reacting to an innocent situation. The more confident I am, the more I know that if I have a gut feeling to be in fear for my life, it's real.

If you only touch your gun when you are in fear for your life or immanent harm, you'll be OK. If you wait for ironclad proof to your conscious mind that it is time to act...it may come too late.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

When you lock eyes with G the very first thing you need to do it indicate you have a weapon. It doesn't matter if you do or not. If you are a woman put your gun hand in your purse and keep it there. If you are a man fan your shirt or coat tail with your gun hand. Make it clear to dude you are mentally prepared to draw and making sure your gun is clear. This will many times result in an about face by dude. It is the single best robbery avoidance tactic IMHO.

Indicating you have a weapon either verbally or otherwise whether or not you actually have a weapon is considered aggravated menacing in the state of Colorado. I’ve mentioned this before but there was a case a couple of years ago in which a former Sheriff’s Deputy was arrested for putting his hand on his jacket over a gun that he was carrying.

I get the point that is being made but the only way I’d try this is if I were convinced enough that it was the real deal to risk jail for doing it.

When to draw
Despite warnings I often see on the Net I have yet to encounter an instance in which a hold up man called the police to report his intended victim threatened to shoot him. Thugs do not want to come into contact with the police. They may already be wanted or realize chances are good they have been identified in a recent robbery. Or what ever. They are not going to call the police if you draw on them.

Supposed two guys are approaching you in a parking lot and do the classic fan out maneuver. You indicate you have a weapon by clearing your gun hand and fanning your jacket at them. They are not discouraged. DRAW!

I am not saying you should pull your gun out, assume a Weaver stance, and scream "That's close enough obscenity redacted What I am saying is draw your gun and hold it beside your leg as you start to move to cover. I am very fond of telephone poles. Anything will do though. They will see this. They will remember they have to be somewhere else. They will not call the police.

Then you can just put your gun back in the holster and go back to whatever you were doing like nothing happened. Why? Because nothing did happen. A happening is when shots are fired.

Do not hesitate to draw. If you are somewhere you are supposed to be and someone appears who is not supposed to be there like a closed business show him the end of your gun. Could it be Mother Teresa looking for her lost cat behind your closed business? No it is some obscenity redacted up to no good. He won't call the police to report he was prowling a location when a guy ran him off.

I think the author has some good ideas he just has a hard time communicating them. I think in his mind the scenario he’s writing here is crystal clear and black and white. You know that the two guys walking across the parking lot are about to rob you and you’re right, unless you’re not.

As permit holders there this do not draw unless you are 100% positive that it’s real mentality but by the time you are 100% positive it could be far too late.

I think there has to be a middle ground, if I were really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, convinced that those two guys that are splitting up as they approach me really are moving to flank me and really are about to try to rob me then I could see discretely drawing my pistol or getting my hand on it if it happened to be in my pocket but as above I’m betting my freedom and possibly my life that I’m right.

(ETA) The author (BTW we have no idea what his actual bona fides are just because he calls himself Burned out LEO, Newsflash I'm not a chimp) also specifies that we are moving to cover as we draw. Now if I'm moving aaway and the two change course to follow me that's a red flag and at that point I likely would make it clear that I have a weapon and that I'm getting ready to use it. (/ETA)

I make it a rule of thumb that no matter where I am there’s very likely someone that can see me so in the scenario above I just can’t see walking away with out calling the police because even if I’m right that the two guys were about to rob me and the OP is right that that they aren’t going to call the cops, he doesn’t take into account the little old lady on the third floor of an apartment building 4 blocks away that saw the whole thing in binoculars and thought I was trying to rob the two guys.

 

[Mike J]

A couple of years ago I was at my Mothers grave with my wife & kids. We had knelt down around it & prayed together. When I looked up I realized there was a fellow sitting in a black SUV out on the road that goes through the graveyard staring at us. There was no one around but us & him. As I stood up I reached back & pulled on my shirttail where it was covering my gun while looking straight at him. He promptly left.

I am not saying I would take everything the author of that thread says as exact gospel but I believe there is truth there. We each have to sift through all information & find what is useful to us & discard what is not.

 

[Ledgehammer]

I get the point that is being made but the only way I’d try this is if I were convinced enough that it was the real deal to risk jail for doing it.

.

He's suggesting you fan your shirt and reach for your "wallet". That's not illegal and will pause your aggressor. Youre not brandishing at this point.

Trust me if you feel sketchy enough to do this these aren't good samritans and they will not call the law because you reached for your hip pocket... If they continue pursuit you know it's not friendly and time to draw your firearm.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

He's suggesting you fan your shirt and reach for your "wallet". That's not illegal and will pause your aggressor. Youre not brandishing at this point.

That's kind of my point because in Colorado you are brandishing at that point

Colorado Statue Felony Menacing 18-3-206

18-3-206. Menacing

(1) A person commits the crime of menacing if, by any threat or physical action, he or she knowingly places or attempts to place another person in fear of imminent serious bodily injury. Menacing is a class 3 misdemeanor, but, it is a class 5 felony if committed:

(a) By the use of a deadly weapon or any article used or fashioned in a manner to cause a person to reasonably believe that the article is a deadly weapon; or

(b) By the person representing verbally or otherwise that he or she is armed with a deadly weapon.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by strambo: Who would think 2 people exiting a store and heading different directions to their car looks "very worrisome?"

How does it differ from "the classic fanout maneuver"? You have no way of divining where they may be going.

From a legal perspective, this hypothetical gives us all 3 elements to be in fear of some sort of bodily harm... Means: 2 adult males-capable of beating me to death. Proximity: A few feet and closing. Demonstrated intent: They are surrounding me and advancing towards me.

You will never convince anyone that the fact of people walking in your direction provides reason to believe that it demonstrates criminal intent.

You want to "acquire a firing grip"? Consider how that might look--ability, opportunity, jeopardy. Could be your last mortal act.

And unless you can produce evidence that you had been justified in using deadly force in some states, or non-deadly physical force in a few, you might end up in legal trouble eeven if you are not shot in self defense. In many jurisdictions, it could result in the permanent loss of your gun rights.

Be alert, be wary, avoid and evade, and if you have to, reach for your firearm.

 

[JRH6856]

in Colorado you are brandishing at that point

Seems like just another reason to stay out of Colorado.

 

[Kleanbore]

Seems like just another reason to stay out of Colorado.

Assault or worse in most states. Self defense is a defense against an assault charge.

We have a sticky on the subject.

 

[strambo]

How does it differ from "the classic fanout maneuver"? You have no way of divining where they may be going.

Because they are 2 people leaving a store looking like 2 people leaving a store look when going to their cars...

You will never convince anyone that the fact of people walking in your direction provides reason to believe that it demonstrates criminal intent.

Nor would I try, all of my examples include a lot more information than that.

You want to "acquire a firing grip"? Consider how that might look--ability, opportunity, jeopardy. Could be your last mortal act.

Right, because the sketchy people who are throwing off enough cues for me to be in fear for my life...are what? 2 random strangers who are also CCW holders or cops and it is just all coincidence that their behavior matches exactly what 2 people would do when assaulting someone?

If you are in fear for your life, don't second guess and hesitate, act. If you are wondering if something is a threat or not (but not yet in fear for your life) just leave.

 

[DeMilled]

And unless you can produce evidence that you had been justified in using deadly force in some states, or non-deadly physical force in a few, you might end up in legal trouble eeven if you are not shot in self defense. In many jurisdictions, it could result in the permanent loss of your gun rights.

Be alert, be wary, avoid and evade, and if you have to, reach for your firearm.

Why all this talk about "in some states"?

Know your state laws and only give advice to people living under them.

If you don't know the laws someone lives under you can't really advise them, can you?

Vague statements like this about serious topics are hardly helpful.

What sort of discussion can you have about legal issues when everything is may, could, possibly, you might, etc?


Anyone live in AZ?
This may be of interest to you. http://azccwpermit.com/?p=305
Don't live in AZ? Guess it does not apply.


There are no blanket statements on this topic that will apply to all the membership here. Well, except for what I said about knowing the laws you actually live under...

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by DeMilled: What sort of discussion can you have about legal issues when everything is may, could, possibly, you might, etc?

In all jurisdictions, producing a weapon, or even threatening someone with one without necessarily showing it, constitutes a crime, unless one can provide evidence of justification. I was discussing the seriousness of the crime, which does vary among jurisdictions.

But again, the legal ramifications constitute but oe aspect of the discussion. There is also the issue of avoiding being killed or injured in self defense.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Seems like just another reason to stay out of Colorado

Well then I guess you'd better get the hell out of Texas cause you'd be brandishing there too.

PENAL CODETITLE 5. OFFENSES AGAINST THE PERSONCHAPTER 22. ASSAULTIVE OFFENSESSec. 22.01. ASSAULT. (a) A person commits an offense if the person: (1) intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly causes bodily injury to another, including the person's spouse; (2) intentionally or knowingly threatens another with imminent bodily injury, including the person's spouse; or(3) intentionally or knowingly causes physical contact with another when the person knows or should reasonably believe that the other will regard the contact as offensive or provocative.

As I said in my post #59 I would have to be convinced enough to risk jail before I'd let someone know I was armed with the intent to intimidate them. Hopefully at that point I'd be able to articulate specific actions that they took that lead me to the reasonable assumption that they were about to assualt me

 

[Trunk Monkey]

You might want to remember that if you get it wrong and G isn't the thug you thought he was Burned Out LEO isn't going to be there to explain to the cops why you intentionally threatened G with a gun

 

[DeMilled]

In all jurisdictions, producing a weapon, or even threatening someone with one without necessarily showing it, constitutes a crime, unless one can provide evidence of justification. I was discussing the seriousness of the crime, which does vary among jurisdictions.

But again, the legal ramifications constitute but oe aspect of the discussion. There is also the issue of avoiding being killed or injured in self defense.

I have produced a weapon several times and did not threaten anyone with it. I've done this a few times.

In my state I can go from concealed carry to open carry right in front of someone I feel is sizing me up. I have.

They left me alone.

I did not commit a crime.


Read KY state laws, it's perfectly legal to show people you are armed.
It's not brandishing, threatening, or in some other way illegal.

 

[DeMilled]

I think a point that needs clarified is that simply going to open carry, or in some other way letting the thug know you are wearing a pistol, is not itself a threat where I live.

Your situation may very well be different.

 

[JRH6856]

Well then I guess you'd better get the hell out of Texas cause you'd be brandishing there too.

I guess you need to compare the Colorado law and the Texas law you cite more carefully.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

I guess you need to compare the Colorado law and the Texas law you cite more carefully.

Yeah, no I don't. In both states if you intentionally threaten someone with a deadly weapon, unless you can justify your actions, you have commited a crime.

 

[DeMilled]

I think people also need to learn what the definition of brandish is:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/brandish