Trunk Monkey
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DeMilled said:
Doesn't that one word kind of answer the question?
The realities of the street
- Thread starter SouthernBoy
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Doesn't that one word kind of answer the question?
No, that would not constitute de-escalation.
So, what would be a legal way of letting him know you are armed?
One way would be to carry openly before he gets anywhere close to you.
If you are not carrying openly? Read the sticky, and then learn the laws of your state.
In Arizona, you would be permitted, under the defensive Display of a Firearm provision, to do so if under the circumstances you would be justified in using physical force to defend yourself or someone else.
But not in many other places.
Of course, he isn't a "bad guy" until he has made himself one by committing some overt act.
Trunk Monkey
member
Bopleo said:
There’s more to life than just staying alive. I want to live but I also want to have some quality of life and spending needless money on attorney’s fees or time in jail that I didn’t have to spend or losing my rights as a citizen for ever don’t add to my quality of life.
Threatening another human being with a gun can be a life changing event and it is (IMO) not something to be done in as cavalier a fashion as BOL is advocating.
It has been said over and over again in this thread by people with far greater qualifications than I have if you threaten someone with a firearm you had better plan on being asked to justify it and if your justification isn’t considered valid you’d better plan on going to jail.
Now I want to add an example from someone who responded to the Street Robberies thread.
This is a lot different that two guys doing the “classic fan out maneuver” you can clearly articulate
The guy was armed and moving straight at you.
The guy was running right at me in an empty parking lot at night with a weapon in his hand because of that I felt that he was in the middle of an attempt to rob me and I drew my firearm.
That would probably fly.
Advice that would not be appropriate "if you get caught" has absolutely no place on The High Road.
Equally important is the fact that some of the advice could well get one shot--by a citizen who may have the lawful justification to do so.
OP
OP
SouthernBoy
Member
In my state of Virginia, open carry is the normal mode* of carrying a sidearm which, of course requires no permit or special considerations. Concealing it is the exception and does require a permit (CHP).
* Normal = standard or default mode.
henschman
Member
I've read that article before -- good stuff. You have to keep things in perspective, and give some thought to the odds and the stakes. If some guys are fanning out on you in a "fringe area," the odds that they mean you harm are good. If they do in fact mean you harm, the possible magnitude of harm is very high... death or serious bodily injury. On the other hand, if you are wrong and they are innocent people, the odds that they are armed are quite low, since the vast majority of regular folks in public are unarmed. The stakes would be the same if they are -- death/SBI. The odds that someone will call the cops on you and that you will get in legal trouble depends on the situation, but the magnitude of harm if this happens is not very strong compared to death or SBI, whatever the criminal penalty for brandishing in your jurisdiction.
I agree with the advice, and I've stated as much on here before. Only the living have the luxury of worrying about the legal consequences of their actions. You always have to weigh the amount of force the government is threatening against you times the probability of getting caught against the amount of harm that could befall you if you obey the law times it's estimated probability. Unfortunately, sometimes the government puts obedience with its laws in conflict with your love for your own life. When this happens, it isn't a very hard decision for me. That's the same reason I carried before it was legal, and I always will.
I agree with the advice, and I've stated as much on here before. Only the living have the luxury of worrying about the legal consequences of their actions. You always have to weigh the amount of force the government is threatening against you times the probability of getting caught against the amount of harm that could befall you if you obey the law times it's estimated probability. Unfortunately, sometimes the government puts obedience with its laws in conflict with your love for your own life. When this happens, it isn't a very hard decision for me. That's the same reason I carried before it was legal, and I always will.
Old Dog
Member
No overthinking here, "bopleo" (Bureau of Prisons?). Over the years, I have spoken with, in person, a serial killer, rapists, child molesters, violent assaulters, armed robbers and a variety of other thugs ... I have no illusions whatsoever about what sort of people are out there preying on your friends and loved ones (or you, if you're not aware).
All I'm saying is, drawing a firearm instantly turns any situation into a lethal force encounter. If you are the person drawing your firearm first, and it's not in response to someone displaying a gun/knife/disparity of size-force to your person and your party ... and you can't articulate why you pulled a gun so that the "reasonable person" would understand, well, good luck to you.
What "burntoutLEO" seems to be advocating is pulling your handgun and having it ready in any situation that might go sideways ... Regrettably, case law doesn't support what you think might happen.
Like I said, there's not always a boogeyman under every bed. Sometimes the seedy looking bum coming up to you asking if you have any spare change is just a seedy looking bum looking for some spare change ... who doesn't follow up to your "No!" with deadly force intent. But if you show your firearm to every seedy looking bum, chances are good you too will experience the inconvenience and high cost that has become the hallmark of the American justice system.
I am by no means advocating caution to the point of putting yourself at undue risk if you think a thread is imminent. But if you have to treat every encounter with another human being as a possible lethal force situation, chances are that you need to rethink the areas in which you're spending time ...
All I'm saying is, drawing a firearm instantly turns any situation into a lethal force encounter. If you are the person drawing your firearm first, and it's not in response to someone displaying a gun/knife/disparity of size-force to your person and your party ... and you can't articulate why you pulled a gun so that the "reasonable person" would understand, well, good luck to you.
What "burntoutLEO" seems to be advocating is pulling your handgun and having it ready in any situation that might go sideways ... Regrettably, case law doesn't support what you think might happen.
Like I said, there's not always a boogeyman under every bed. Sometimes the seedy looking bum coming up to you asking if you have any spare change is just a seedy looking bum looking for some spare change ... who doesn't follow up to your "No!" with deadly force intent. But if you show your firearm to every seedy looking bum, chances are good you too will experience the inconvenience and high cost that has become the hallmark of the American justice system.
I am by no means advocating caution to the point of putting yourself at undue risk if you think a thread is imminent. But if you have to treat every encounter with another human being as a possible lethal force situation, chances are that you need to rethink the areas in which you're spending time ...
Personally, I think this makes it evident that we support open carry in all jurisdictions, when I was I'm Virginia I had to go to a bad section of Richmond to take an exam for professional licensing. As I was walking back to my car two men were following me I made a turn around the block ie traveling in a circle and they were still there and began making comments about the "white boy". I was carting IWB and just picked up my jacket so they could see(without turning around) as I turned a corner. I heard them moving in the opposite direction and went on my way
Now I don't know if they were trouble and I don't care the fact that VA is an open carry state let me show I was armed WITHOUT touching my weapon. That's why I support open carry
Now I don't know if they were trouble and I don't care the fact that VA is an open carry state let me show I was armed WITHOUT touching my weapon. That's why I support open carry
That explains the situation quite well for most US jurisdictions.
In a few states, the threshold is somewhat lower, however. But even in those, unless you would at least be justified in the use of non-deadly physical force, you might well end up listed as "the suspect" and/or "the defendant", and it could go south from there.
That's the way I read it.
Good thinking.
But there is another risk. Should someone toward whom I am walking, or toward whom many people I know is walking, or, I suspect, toward whom many people on our board might be walking, draw his gun and put it by his leg, his immediate risks will extend far beyond those of legal inconvenience.
Excellent advice.
Mastrogiacomo
Member
It was a good read, thank you for sharing. Just a few nights ago, we had an Iranian guy that was delivering pizza in Lynn, MA (a real dump if ever there was such a city), he was approached by two guys: one with a bat, the other a knife, and a woman with a gun. Believe it or not but they told him to drop the pizza and he did. I think this has got to be right up there with one of the more dangerous jobs because you never know if the people just want the food or to lure you out to kill you. He was lucky, he got away with his life, many others have been killed for less. You can never underestimate how stupid criminals are and how far they're willing to go to play their little power games. It's a sobering reminder to always be aware of your surroundings and armed.
Laura
Laura
UH OH!
Do NOT confuse open carry with the display of a concealed weapon during a potential encounter. We have discussed that before:
This was the situation:
Frank Ettin provided the following answer:
Emphasis added.
That is precisely why I said the following in Post #104:
Emphasis added.
Trunk Monkey
member
Any advice that includes the words "Don't get caught" probably isn't good advice
Open carry is carrying a weapon that is not concealed.
It does not include uncovering a previously concealed weapon in the presence of others for a purpose.
Such an action is probably best described using the terminology of the law in Arizona, which incidentally is an open carry state: "defensive display."
The lawful justification for such an action varies among jurisdictions, but in all, at least non-deadly physical force would have to be justified.
I understand what you are saying, but for all practical and legal purposes if one brushes their coat away while making eye contact in a dark alleyway or parking lot, if this descalates the situation - how would an investigation price the difference then say reaching for a wallet? I'm not disagreeing with you and obviously doing the same in a crowded mall would be dumb.
But honestly, for the sake of argument say that a potential thug calls - even if they lie and state that you threatened to shoot him- what evidence would the police have if you never actually touched your sidearm? (If there was video it would show it, and if there wasn't its he said/she said)
My point was only that an open carry state allows you the option of removing your coat as it were
But honestly, for the sake of argument say that a potential thug calls - even if they lie and state that you threatened to shoot him- what evidence would the police have if you never actually touched your sidearm? (If there was video it would show it, and if there wasn't its he said/she said)
My point was only that an open carry state allows you the option of removing your coat as it were
As Trunk Monkey has pointed out, advice that relies upon not getting caught is poor advice indeed.
But to answer your question,
- Actually touching your sidearm is not necessary to bring about a charge of criminal conduct; all you have to do is expose it, or tell someone that you are carrying it, if your reason is to influence his behavior; and
- The verification by the police of the report by that "potential thug" about where and how you carry your firearm would serve as evidence to help to substantiate his claim.
And, of course, there may be another witness.
Go back and re-read Frank Ettin's explanation very carefully.
In Arizona, people have been convicted on aggravated assault charges for intentionally exposing their firearms she they felt threatened. The threshold for lawful justification ultimately led to the enactment of the "defensive display" proven, which eliminated the requirement that deadly force be justified before one could lawfully display the firearm.
In Virginia, the second definition of simple assault is exactly the same as the common law definition cited by Frank. It is a first class misdemeanor, much less serious than an aggravated assault charge in Arizona, but two misdemeanor convictions in five years would likely prevent you from renewing your carry permit.
Laws that permit open carry have no relationship whatsoever to the use of force laws. They simply mean that you do not have to keep your firearm concealed. Charges for not concealing a firearm fall into an entirely different category.
JRH6856
Member
Another thing with which I think Frank Etten would agree is black letter law means little until it is applied to a situation at trial by a judge or jury. It is the facts of the case AND the law, not one or the other that will determine the outcome.
Trunk Monkey
member
qwert65 said:
This story appeared in the Colorado Springs Gazette five years ago I can't seem to find a link Please note that Mr. Moncalieri never actually touched his sidearm
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Actually, the testimony can have quite an effect before a case ever goes to trial, if it ever does. Investigation, arrest, and should it come to that, indictment and even trial ending in acquittal are very unpleasant processes.
And if it does go to trial, the outcome will hinge only on the facts that are presented to the jury. In the absence of a sound savage and video recordings taken from multiple vantage points, not everything that really happened will be there for the jurors' assessment.
I have never heard any instructor or attorney advise anything other that to be the first to call. Failure to have done so could help seal the actor's fate.
Of course, the common law definition of assault cited by Frank Ettin was in fact written by judges in the first place. And plenty of people have been convicted in courts over the years.
Why anyone in his right mind would recommend drawing a gun and holding it by his leg because He is suspicious about someone who is walking toward him is beyond me.
I wonder what the self-described "burned out leo" would advise if someone toward whom one were walking were to draw a firearm as we approached? I think most of us would be very concerned indeed. How many of us would take a chance and hesitate?
All in all, the article contains just about the worst advice I have ever heard.
Please notice that I said non verbal. I've looked and haven't found any cases where someone was convicted of assault without talking or physically touching someone
I'm not saying its a tool to be used all the time.
Here's some questions;
in AZ, LA, VA, UT, WY, MT or any other open carry state. Is it legal to open carry in public?
In those areas where it is legal can you ccw and then open carry on the same day?
Can you legally take of your jacket thereby exposing your firearm to public view?
If you carry your wallet in your right hand side back pocket(I do) and IWB on your R side, can I reach for my wallet?
If I'm in a parking lot and I feel threatened may I take off my coat? Put my hand on my wallet to make sure it is secure?
I realize It is wrong to confront someone holding your hand on your weapon, that is an implied threat just about anywhere.
My point is that there are ways to display your firearm legally in open carry states that may prevent you from being harmed/using your weapon which I think everyone can agree is the goal.
In the dark parking lot for example, with say two men approaching you for no apparent reason, you were to make sure your wallet hadn't been left behind in the store , and doing so you revealed a gun on your hip what could happen?
1- the men may not be interested in you and don't notice anything- no harm/no foul
2- the men mean you harm, notice the gun and continue to approach you- you are in the same situation as before only they know you are armed- might not work out as well(though you know you should fear for your safety)
3- the men mean you harm and realize you are armed and find someone else- no harm/no foul
4- the men mean you no harm, notice you have a weapon and call 911- IF you are still around when the police show up explain that you were checking your wallet (which you did) though honestly if you are in a parking lot and someone calls 911 you will be long gone by the time they show up, I suppose they could have seen your plates in which case you would be stopped - but again assuming you have no record and honestly keep your wallet there it should be no problem(if it is legal to carry where you were)
5- the men mean you harm, don't attack you but call the cops- honestly see above and considering what would happen if two men who know you are armed try to accost you most likely that will turn into a shooting- Id rather deal with a he said/she said assault charge then a shooting and its aftermath
Also I would honestly, like to see a case where someone was convicted in a state with legal open carry, and they never opened their mouth or touched their sidearm
I'm not saying its a tool to be used all the time.
Here's some questions;
in AZ, LA, VA, UT, WY, MT or any other open carry state. Is it legal to open carry in public?
In those areas where it is legal can you ccw and then open carry on the same day?
Can you legally take of your jacket thereby exposing your firearm to public view?
If you carry your wallet in your right hand side back pocket(I do) and IWB on your R side, can I reach for my wallet?
If I'm in a parking lot and I feel threatened may I take off my coat? Put my hand on my wallet to make sure it is secure?
I realize It is wrong to confront someone holding your hand on your weapon, that is an implied threat just about anywhere.
My point is that there are ways to display your firearm legally in open carry states that may prevent you from being harmed/using your weapon which I think everyone can agree is the goal.
In the dark parking lot for example, with say two men approaching you for no apparent reason, you were to make sure your wallet hadn't been left behind in the store , and doing so you revealed a gun on your hip what could happen?
1- the men may not be interested in you and don't notice anything- no harm/no foul
2- the men mean you harm, notice the gun and continue to approach you- you are in the same situation as before only they know you are armed- might not work out as well(though you know you should fear for your safety)
3- the men mean you harm and realize you are armed and find someone else- no harm/no foul
4- the men mean you no harm, notice you have a weapon and call 911- IF you are still around when the police show up explain that you were checking your wallet (which you did) though honestly if you are in a parking lot and someone calls 911 you will be long gone by the time they show up, I suppose they could have seen your plates in which case you would be stopped - but again assuming you have no record and honestly keep your wallet there it should be no problem(if it is legal to carry where you were)
5- the men mean you harm, don't attack you but call the cops- honestly see above and considering what would happen if two men who know you are armed try to accost you most likely that will turn into a shooting- Id rather deal with a he said/she said assault charge then a shooting and its aftermath
Also I would honestly, like to see a case where someone was convicted in a state with legal open carry, and they never opened their mouth or touched their sidearm
The worst advice for staying out of legal trouble or staying alive?
I don't think the intent was to tell people how to avoid a menacing charge, I think it was to tell people how to stay alive should they come into contact with the lowest of low life stick up men.
I think the chances of coming into contact with the type of psycho outlined in the OP is directly related to the type of places you frequent. So this is probably not applicable at all to people who are more concerned with law abiding people pressing charges for wrongly brandishing or whatever, he's talking about true cold blooded killers who would never call the police, it's quite different from the examples you guys are posting.
I'm willing to bet the OP is one of those people who says "I'd rather be caught with one than caught without one". That pretty much sums up the mentality, he's not talking about a stand up guy who owns a business pressing charges because a crooked cop/PI threatened him with a gun, he's talking about someone who would murder you for your shoes and be proud of it.
If you are dealing with the "enemy" he describes then his advice is actually good, maybe life saving. Most of us never ever run into people like that, and accidentally treating a normal person like his "enemy" is a big mistake, as you guys have pointed out.
JRH6856
Member
As I said earlier, while his assessment of the criminal mindset is worth noting, his advice as to what action to take is questionable. I am not defending it. I am questioning the liberal quoting of various laws of examples of why the advice might be bad in all cases because while there are times the advised action could get you in trouble, there are times that at least some of the advised action would be justified and legal.
There remains a big difference in some states at least, between drawing or pointing a gun at someone and merely making them aware of its presence, intentionally or not.
As a possible example, Texas law defines assault in part, as a threat of imminent bodily injury. The statute does not appear to specifically include creating fear or apprehension by implying the presence of a deadly weapon that way other state like Colorado statute does.
Another statute prohibits displaying a weapon with the intention of causing alarm.
Texas law also states that the threat of deadly force may be used to preempt an assault and clearly states that the threat of deadly force is not a use of deadly force. So it would appear that if someone threatnes you with imminent bodily harm, you could legally show them a gun and threaten to shoot them if they don't desist.
But their action have to have create the threat. Not all the actions by possible bad guys deseribed by BOLEO always rise to that level. IWC, a threatening response is unwarranted and probably illegal.
And in order for these laws to have any real meaning, they have to be applied to the facts of a specific case.
Yes, testimony and evidence have a large impact on whether or not the case makes it to court. Yes, not all of the facts may be introduced at trial. But then again, they may. It is your attorney's job to see that the facts favorable to your case are introduced and the unfavotable facts are not. It is the prosecutor's job to do the opposite, without withholding exculpatory evidence from the defense. You may get a fair trial, you may get a speedy trial. Either/or, Both or neither. The criminal justice system may grind you up and spit out the pieces, but it can also to the same to the other guy.
The time to decide whether or not you want to take a chance in court is not when the other guy is bearing down on you. It is before you strap on a gun in the first place.
I like the original article and link. Thanks to SouthernBoy for posting.
We just have to remember that the man who wrote that link was a cop who was paid for arresting armed hold-up men. He already knew the situation and who his opponents were. We have the tough time of not knowing who our opponent is, and not having any special protection from the law.
CA R
We just have to remember that the man who wrote that link was a cop who was paid for arresting armed hold-up men. He already knew the situation and who his opponents were. We have the tough time of not knowing who our opponent is, and not having any special protection from the law.
CA R
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