The Tactical 30-30 Lever Action Rifle

[goon]

I believe that it was Jesse James who carried two .44-40 Remington 1875's and a '73 Winchester in the same caliber. He said something to the effect that when the chips are down, you don't want to be trying to figure out which ammo goes where. There was also an account of a Texas Ranger accidentally jamming a .45LC round into his .44-40 Winchester during a gun battle. Being a Ranger, he unscrewed the sideplate from his rifle, pried the .45 round out, put the plate back on, reloaded and kept fighting.
A .357 revolver/rifle combination would still benefit from that ability, but not as much as it benefitted ol' Jesse. The thing is, this is all academic. My AK is an ideal weapon for driving off intruders. I would pin them down with awesome firepower from my several 30 rounders, or simply shoot through what ever they tried to hide behind.
But I would be crucified by the local DA for expending 87 rounds in a self defense shooting.
Switch to a Winchester. I shoot two or three rounds with my cowboy gun, versus the 87 from my machine gun. It would look better, eventhough the results would be the same.
Factor in that there are few criminals who are going to use suppressive fire and flanking manuvers against me when moving down my hallway.
One way in.
I am waiting for you to stick your head around the corner.
You hear the Tchkk-Tchkk as I chamber a round.
You know that I know you are there, so that means the cops are probably on the way.
Are you actually going to be stupid enough to step into my line of fire, banking on the fact that my 30-30 only holds six rounds and that I will not be able to reload before you do?
Hell no! You would be full of holes after three.
Logic says you cut and run.
The Lever-gun is plenty good enough.

 

[natedog]

Couldn't resist . All you need to do is figure out how to spin the weapon and cycle the weapon and then you would be like Ah-nold.

 

[George Hill]

That is the most TACTICAL levergun I have ever seen.

 

[David4516]

You guys got it all wrong. It isn't "tactical", it's "tacti-cool!"

I still think a lever gun in 12 ga or 20 ga would be really neat...

 

[Glamdring]

Are you giving anything significant up for defensive handguns if you use revolver vs auto?

Given that handguns are underpowered, is a revolver a liability in self defense (and if so who is going to tell Mr. Cirillo?)?

Isn't a 357 lever gun at least as good as a 357 wheelgun?? Lets see 6 rounds in the revolver vs 9+1 in the lever gun. And the 158hp's grainers will be going faster from the lever gun than 125's will go from a 4" revolver.

BTW full (modern lever action level) power 45-70 loads with 400 grain bullets will have trajectory very close to 357/158 grain loads from levergun.

 

[Cosmoline]

Hey!

The Duke started the spin-cock! Not Arnold. The earliest I've seen it was in "Stagecoach," when the Duke caps off a round to hail the coach, then spin-cocks the '92. You have to have real long arms to do it IRL. And I suspect that with live ammo there's a chance of actually shooting your own arm off.

Still, it looks cool. "True Grit" is probably the best example.

 

[PaulTX]

I may have posted this here before, but here is my handy little .44 mag lever action. It's the Marlin 1894P with an Ashely Outdoors scout mount and Leupold 2x scope. The scope is great - close up or at 100 yards. You look through it with both eyes open - very tactical!

 

[David4516]

I've been thinking about this whole tactical lever gun thing, and I've had an idea. For those of us like myself who already have a fine levergun in .30-30, and are worried about over-penitration if we were to use it as a home defense gun, what do we do? At first I was thinking about getting a new gun in .357 or .44 Mag, but then I took a look at my reloading manual...

Speer makes a 110 gr .30 cal JHP, and has load data for it in .30-30 winchester. I was thinking you could (if you reload like me) use this bullet and load it lower velcoitys, say 2100 or 2200 FPS instead of the listed 2700 FPS. The rifle loads for .357 show a 110 gr bullet at 2450 FPS from an 18 inch barrel. So I'm thinking a .30 cal 110 gr JHP going about 2200 FPS should have more "stopping power" than any handgun and still be less likely to go thur lots of walls than a rifle chambered for .357 or .44 Mag would...

So does this sound like a dumb idea or a good idea? I know a .30-30 rifle won't have as high a capacity as a .357 rifle would, but other than that I can't think of why it wouldn't be just as good, if not better...

 

[Cosmoline]

I wouldn't worry about "overpenetration" either way. But I would point out that the sectional density on the .308" bullet is going to be higher than the SD on the same weight .357" , and it will probably penetrate more deeply all things being equal.

 

[355sigfan]

I wouldn't worry about "overpenetration"
END

Thats a foolish policy. You will lose all your livelyhood in a rightious law suit if your unlucky.
PAT

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

overpenetration is a nonissue, since most projectiles are only moving a fraction of their MV when the exit a body.


penetration of walls and whatnot when you miss is something to consider, of course.

 

[Cosmoline]

Worry about whether you can exercise deadly force
Worry about whether you're aiming in the right place
Worry about whether you have the safety on
Worry about whether you've got a round chambered

Don't worry about overpenetration. Unless your goblins are stacked up like the ninja SWAT types ;-)

And there are NO NINJAS in Bethel! (sorry about that--had to poke the usual fun from the civilized world in Palmer)

I love Bethel. It's the only place on Earth where a Russian, a Korean and an Eskimo can get in a fist fight with a Sikh

 

[David4516]

I think it is something to worry about. What if I miss Mr. Bad Guy for whatever reason? I don't want my stray round to go thur 5 houses and kill someone half a mile away...

Now I realize that almost any round will go thur a wall, but some will go thur more than others, and I want to lower the risk of hurting someone other than the bad guy...

 

[Cosmoline]

IMHO (and it's only a HO), the problem can easily be resolved by using good HP or SP bullets. Maybe if you live in a swarming city, it's a problem. In most cases, though, overpenetration is going to be the LEAST of your concerns if you have to defend yourself. Me, I want something that will drop them instantly that I can aim well even when I'm tired. A levergun fits the bill nicely.

 

[David4516]

"problem can easily be resolved by using good HP or SP bullets"

ya, thats what I was asking. Will the 110 gr JHP be an effective manstopper and be less likely to go thur alot of walls at the same time? I think so but I'm not 100% sure about that...

 

[only1asterisk]

Nothing wrong with leverguns for SD/HD. If you actually do have to shoot someone, it can't hurt you to be using "Grampa's old deer rifle" instead of one of those scary "machineguns". The lever action's only disadvantage comes from being a little slow to reload. If you choose a rifle chambered for a revolver cartridge, or a 30/30, 35 Rem, 444 ect. with a full magazine. You will 8-10+ rounds at the ready. Not too many BG's will stand and fight, and if you're concerned about running out of ammunition, a pisol belt complete with pistol, extra magaz ines and flashlight makes a fine companion when you grab you're rifle (or in my case shotgun) in the middle of the night. Rifles are better suited for rural life where you have barns, outbuildings and amimals/equipment to take care of. I don't see any real advantage over the shotgun in urban/suburban HD.

As for it being the Ozark Assault Rifle, this is true. The reason being, it works.


David

 

[355sigfan]

overpenetration is a nonissue, since most projectiles are only moving a fraction of their MV when the exit a body.
END

I disagree it depends alot on the projectile and how much energy it exits the body with. For example New York PD had a lot of people get hit from bullets that hit their intended target and passed through and hit innocent people. The injuries varied. Overpenetration is always an issue. Of course you can weigh this against where you live and what kind of enviroment you live in. If you live on a farm with no neighbors you have less of a worry than does someone living in a condo.
PAT

 

[Cato]

Glamdring wrote:

In what situation, that a civilian might face where they could legally use a rifle, will a lever gun fail? How exactly would an AR, AK, SKS, or M1a help them in that situation?

What about having one arm shot/slashed to pieces?

If we talk about "tactical", I envision a worst case szenario- and the example of Agent Mireles, who had difficulties pumping the action of his Remington 870 because of a 5.56 bullet through his arm, is something to consider. From time to time one reads in newspapers about home invasions, where the homeowner was severely beaten but then, in a moment of distraction, could reach his home defense gun. So the worst case may have you wounded on the ground witz several intruders ready to take on your family. Anybody want a lever action in that situation? Are your children, is your wife, your girlfriend strong enough to use the lever action without short stroking? No thanks, I would rather see them use something like this one:

30 rounds ready to go with one stroke, each round designed to stop men instantly, not Grizzly bears, no recoil = fast follow up shots, lightweight & short even with optical sights. Collapsible buttstock stored in a nearly closed position is even natural for smaller statured people - kids, women.



Regards

Cato

 

[H&Hhunter]

I know one thing for sure.

EVERY ONE WHO PUTS A SCOPE ON A LEVER GUN IS GOING STRAIGHT TO HELL!!!Blasphmey I tell you

And oh that's a quote from my good friend Ashley Emerson.

 

[Cosmoline]

2,200 fps should be sufficient to allow for expansion of those bullets. If you want more fragmentation, you could always speed them up.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

I disagree it depends alot on the projectile and how much energy it exits the body with. For example New York PD had a lot of people get hit from bullets that hit their intended target and passed through and hit innocent people.

did they pass through interior and exterior walls? how bad were the injuries?

 

[355sigfan]

I will have to do some digging to get that information. From what I remember injuries varied. But none were minor.
PAT

 

[inGobwetrust]

"I know one thing for sure.

"EVERY ONE WHO PUTS A SCOPE ON A LEVER GUN IS GOING STRAIGHT TO HELL!!!Blasphmey I tell you"

And oh that's a quote from my good friend Ashley Emerson."

H&H,

Does that mean that Ashley will be leading the charge to Hell since he designed a scout scope mount just for the purpose of scoping lever-guns?

 

[Cosmoline]

I also recall the NYPD emtying high caps at unarmed suspects and STILL missing with over half their shots Get it right the first time, I say. And don't go to NYC

 

[H&Hhunter]

Ingobwetrust,
There is no doubt in my mind that Ashley is going straight to hell.

If you'll ever get the chance to hunt or shoot with him you'll no what I say is true within 15 seconds.

Just by the way Ashley is now running IWI and MMC. Have you noticed that since the ugly little break up at Ashley Outdoors formley known as AO sights then the name was changed to X.S. systems. They are no longer allowed to use the Ashley name. That XS hasn't come up with one single new inventive or usefull product. I guess it doesn't pay to get rid of your main man does it?