THE Unofficial Countdown to AWB II Thread...

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5 Days since Democrats Voted into Power, and NO AWB II.

Dems will Fail to pass AWB II type legislation
-StrikeFire83
-The Drew
-Chris Rhines
-Erinyes

Dems Will Succeed in Passing AWB II type legislaiton
-seeker_two
-Kevin Quinlan
-Robert Hairless
-Big Calhoun
-Nio
-bamawrx
-arthurcw
-2ndamd


Dems might win some AWB II victories, but not all
-Lonestar
-hillbilly
-Zundfolge
-American By Blood
 
They've been voted into office, but they have not gone into session. The last Republican controlled congress is meeting and many of them are cleaning out their desks- this is their last chance to make a difference. But you know they won't.

I think I am going to go look for a good Garand, a couple hundred clips, several cases of ammo, lots of reloading components and gear...I hope to God you optomists are right, because my parents are very reluctant to me spending money on guns right now (not a RKBA issue, they just dont see the politics coming). I would hate not to experience owning at least an AR-15, AK, and a .50 Cal...
 
Put me on some. It will happen, because most people, including many gun owners, don't know what an 'assault rifle' is. Not that any gun should be banned. How bad is an unknown. I hope I'm wrong.

Pessimistically Yours,

MikeK
 
It's worth noting that just as the Dems haven't introduced AWB II, they have also not repealed RealID, the Patriot Act, or the intel. operations.

In fact, I've seen more discussion of gun control than of these matters. Guess we know where their heart (or lack thereof) lies.

Seriously, if people are giving them credit for not yet doing what many fear they will do (apparently ignoring the fact that the Reps still control Congress until January), then people should equally condemn them for their failure to do what the people elected them to do.
 
Recently, an analysis of the elections results suggested that the Dems recognize that any anti-gun bill is and will be a poison pill. If they want the white house in 2008, they will have to repress the most liberal among them from putting forth any anti-gun legislation.
Some of them may not agree, on the whole, with our gun views, but they are not dumb. There was absolutely no talk about anti-gun legislation in this election, and they realize that championing anti-gun legislation is political suicide.
People who were elected like Testor in Montana and Webb in Virginia are people for whom gun ownership is part of their culture. They hunt and shoot.
Yes, there are Pelosi-and Shumer types, but they are few and far between in this last election.
I think that the anti-gun agenda is dead for the near future.
Ron
 
Recently, an analysis of the elections results suggested that the Dems recognize that any anti-gun bill is and will be a poison pill.

Maybe so. Or maybe they are just following the Third Way of gun control some of their pundits argued for when they lost in 2000. It calls for developing grass roots support for gun control (i.e. transfering the battle to the states) while remaining silent on the national level until the time is ripe.

Almost seems like that's what they are doing, no?

And people forget that the attempt to nationalize health care by Clinton was as much to blame for the '94 rout as guns. And what was Hillary talking about this week? Health care reform, which she described as a nightmare to some. So, one of the principal reasons they lost in '94 is fresh on their minds and their agends. Why should guns be far behind?

What I think is almost tragically funny is how similar the ongoing arguments are to those from years past. I remember Dems and those that hated Reps saying "the Dems remember 1994, they won't touch your guns." Yet, while this was going on, the Dems were calling for gun control, Gore was running on an anti-gun ticket, Kerry was voting for gun control (the only vote he attended during the 2004 campaign), Kennedy was calling for bans on cop killer .30-30s. And every time it was brought up, the same answer was offered: "they remembered 1994."
 
You are completely correct. There are many gun owners with selective memory who are simply ignoring the truth. The Democrats are motivated by a radical agenda that includes (as simply one small component of a broad ideology) a deeply held belief that the populace must be disarmed. They are not simply motivated by a desire to hold power, as the points you make illustrate. At times they are so devoted to their agenda that their zeal gets before their timing and they act legislatively before the voters are properly convinced (typically by the liberal media). Yet the agenda persists, and resurfaces later as the Democrats regroup and try again to pass some aspect of their platform into law. The simple fact that many gun owners ignore is that the Democrats do believe this stuff. They are not simply pushing gun control because they think it wins votes. Quite the contrary, they push it in spite of it costing them votes. They are in this to win, and know they will take some hits before they get what they want. Ultimately they had a winning hand this time with the war and were able to take Congress. The only issue remaining to be seen is will they be able to bully Bush into signing various leftist laws when placed before him. Their strategy now will be to couple such issues as gun control with popular ones like national security, so as to place him in a position of having to sign or risk damaging his historical legacy and party's hopes to win in 2008. Expect to see a gun control law as part of some anti-terrorist/homeland security bill. Expect to see Bush's hand reach for that pen.

John
 
Yes, AWB coming.

But I have stocked up on lots of guns and ammo. I assume the rest of you have done the same?

Good more for Fienswine to toss into the furnace, ocean, under the steam roller, or send off to the chop saw. AWB II is comming and thats that. Not all at once but it will get here. This country would need the gov to start rounding up jews and tossing them into death camps to wake up. We have grown fat and lazy over the last 150 years.
 
I think the Dems and Reps will get together and pass another AWB bill, but the Democrats learned some lessons from their years in the political wilderness, not to excessively anger those they percieve as "the hicks from the sticks"

They will get some of what the radical gun-banners want but not all.

Dems might win some AWB II victories, but not all
 
Yes, there are Pelosi-and Shumer types, but they are few and far between in this last election. I think that the anti-gun agenda is dead for the near future.

Didn't happen in the House. None of the anti-gunners were defeated and none of the newcomers are pro-gun. The Senate has no net gain or loss except that Webb and Tester are unproven in how they will be pressured to vote.

What's worse is that there are no electable pro-gun Presidential candidates, so if gun control is not part of the debate, a virtual non-issue, gun owners will have no effect on the Presidential race beyond casting votes that could very well create unintended consequences. The battle for gun rights will be in Congressional races, especially in the primaries.
 
Old tale comes to mind...
A scorpion and a frog meet on the bank of a stream and the scorpion asks the frog to carry him across on its back. The frog asks, "How do I know you won't sting me?" The scorpion says, "Because if I do, I will die too."

The frog is satisfied, and they set out, but in midstream, the scorpion stings the frog. The frog feels the onset of paralysis and starts to sink, knowing they will both will drown, and has just enough to gasp "Why?"

Replies the scorpion: "It's my nature..."
Ditto the Democrats. They restrained themselves enough to be permitted onto voters' backs, refraining from talk of "gun control" and "health care" and "cut & run" and "terrorists rights" and ..., evading discussion of their nature long enough for people to vote for them - even though voters know the nature of Democrats, the nature thereof was sufficiently denied.

Now voters are stuck with the Democratic majority for 2 years. Despite a litany of reasons to not indulge their nature, particularly that implementing certain things will politically maim the party, they simply can't help it: we WILL see AWB II and more.

They know it will be politically damaging.
It's just their nature.
They can't not do it.
 
They know it will be politically damaging.
It's just their nature.
They can't not do it.

Just like their promises of inevstigation after investigation. They publicly took impeachment off the table, but they are going after everyone else. So much for the spirit of bipartisanship and reconcilliation that the nation called for. Revenge and crushing one's enemies while advancing ideologies is the order of the day.
 
Had an interesting chat with a Dem here. Between the lines I realized:
The Dems want investigations ... thing is, they will only be satisfied the investigation are fair if, and only if, convictions ensue. This is not necessarily born of some form of bloodlust, it's that they're so convinced of a criminal conspiracy that acquittals must be indicative of conspiracy in action.

Sorta like the witch-hunt notion that the accused be plunged under water for 5 minutes, and if she drowns she's innocent, survives she's guilty and must be killed.
 
Well, they've always complained we were returning to a McCarthy era. I guess the actual complaint was 1) we weren't getting there fast enough and 2) they weren't the ones in charge.

The worst thing is that this is how gun control is likely to get through. The Reps will have to make deals so that it will be the investigations won't be utter kangaroo courts. Too many lives and businesses could be destroyed simply in the way the investigations are conducted, let alone if the entitites are actually guilty of something. So, they'll make deals and we'll suffer accordingly.
 
"paranoid style" time

This is a good essay that is brought to mind after the "fair investigation" comment. We saw the same phenomena in the anti-Bill Clinton movement, and see it now in the mirror image of the anti-GWB movement.

The Original essay

Economist commentary on its application to the anti-GWB crowd

The paranoid style in American politics
It's back, updated for a new generation

Jan 5th 2006
From The Economist print edition


RICHARD HOFSTADTER'S classic essay, “The Paranoid Style in American Politics”, was aimed at the American right (it was published in November 1964 in the wake of the Goldwater insurgency). But it is hard to read it these days without first thinking of the other side of the political divide.

Hofstadter argued that the “paranoid style” expresses itself in three habits: “heated exaggeration”, “suspiciousness” and “conspiratorial fantasy”. Victims of the paranoid style have attacked shifting groups throughout American history—from international bankers to freemasons, from the Illuminati to effete liberals—but today they are targeting the White House.

Begin with the fuss over wiretapping. According to Robert Byrd, a Democratic senator from West Virginia, George Bush has assumed “unchecked power” that is “reserved only for kings and potentates”. Barbara Boxer of California says there is “no excuse” for Mr Bush's actions. A growing chorus of outrage, including Congressman John Lewis and John Dean (of Watergate fame), has suggested impeachment. Over at the Nation, Jonathan Schell argues that “Bush's abuses of presidential power are the most extensive in American history”. The administration “is not a dictatorship”, he concedes, before adding that “it does manifest the characteristics of one in embryonic form.”

And the proof of dictatorship? On more than 30 different occasions, Mr Bush authorised the tapping of telephone calls made by American citizens. Tapping domestic telephone calls without getting a warrant is illegal. But Mr Bush claims that his constitutional powers as commander-in-chief allowed him to do so because all these calls were international ones. He maintains that going to the courts would have been cumbersome and that his first priority was to prevent another terrorist attack.

You can pick at this reasoning—for instance, there are retrospective warrants that might have done the trick. But it is hard to claim that Mr Bush is being outlandish on any of these scores. John Schmidt, an associate attorney-general under Bill Clinton, thinks Mr Bush has the constitutional power to approve such taps; General Michael Hayden, the deputy director of national intelligence, has argued that the programme “has been successful in detecting and preventing attacks inside the United States”.

That assertion is for Congress to probe, but the real argument here is surely one of nuance: it has to do with how much freedom you should reasonably curtail in the name of security. Mr Bush may have crossed a line, but he has hardly smashed through it. Most European countries have more intrusive surveillance regimes than America's. As for impeachment, the prospect of having to defend Mr Bush against the charge that he went a tad too far trying to avert a terrorist attack is the sort of thing Karl Rove salivates about.

Moreover, the paranoid style is finding an ever larger home in popular culture. In 2004, American cinema-goers trooped off to see Michael Moore's “Fahrenheit 9/11”, a fearless exposé of the hidden forces behind the war on terrorism, and an update of “The Manchurian Candidate”, the quintessential paranoid film. Now they are crowding to “Syriana”, an analysis of American policy in the Middle East, featuring George Clooney. The villains vary: “Fahrenheit 9/11” went for the Carlyle Group, the Saudi royal family and virtually anybody who had met Mr Bush; “The Manchurian Candidate” attacked big business; “Syriana” dislikes oil firms and the CIA. But they all agree that America is run by a sinister cabal that will stop at nothing.



Paranoid optimism
In one way, paranoia is one of America's great strengths—part of its long-standing suspicion of government. America was born in a revolution against George III's tyranny. Hostility towards central government has been a constant of American history. Most periods of heightened executive power during wartime have been followed by sharp reactions. Abraham Lincoln, who suspended habeas corpus, was accused of dictatorship and his Republican Party lost seats in 1862; Richard Nixon's abuses of power spawned a host of reforms, including the wiretapping-oversight system that Mr Bush has tangled with.

But there is something less healthy at work on both the left and the right. Hofstadter argued that the politics of paranoia is fuelled by a sense of dispossession—by fury at your loss of relative power to rising groups. In the 1960s, the right was driven by a sense that it was being eclipsed by cosmopolitans and intellectuals. Now the left thinks it is losing power to businessmen and suburbanites. It cannot believe that the north-east—the vortex of civilised America—is losing influence to the South and the West, to people who believe in God and guns, to Mr Bush.

That does not let the president off the hook. Put simply, a man who claimed he would unite the country has given his enemies far too much to be paranoid about. There may well be a case for wire-tapping people in contact with al-Qaeda; but what about refusing to reveal who is on the energy task-force, let alone the (possibly legal but ghastly) treatment of inmates at Guantánamo? There may be a case for asking people to rally around the flag at a time of war; but how does that square with Mr Bush using terrorism to divide his opponents and advance his party's political interests, as he did in 2002 and 2004?

Hofstadter argued that the paranoid style “has more to do with the way in which ideas are believed than with the truth or falsity of their content”. The problem for America's left is not the lack of justified complaints about Mr Bush. It is that their paranoid style—with its propensity to exaggeration and conspiracy-mongering and its inability to distinguish between justified complaints and hysteria—means that their cries are seldom listened to except by people who suffer from the same affliction. Which is sometimes a pity.

Sometimes I feel that I get sucked in re:the anti-gun-owner crowd (Soros, Joyce Foundation, IANSA, "Hollywood/Media," etc.). But the difference is, I'm right; they are out to get "us" and destroy Western Civilization's tradition of individualism and self-reliance.:eek:
 
7 Days since Democrats Voted into Power, and NO AWB II.

Dems will Fail to pass AWB II type legislation
-StrikeFire83
-The Drew
-Chris Rhines
-Erinyes

Dems Will Succeed in Passing AWB II type legislaiton
-seeker_two
-Kevin Quinlan
-Robert Hairless
-Big Calhoun
-Nio
-bamawrx
-arthurcw
-2ndamd


Dems might win some AWB II victories, but not all
-Lonestar
-hillbilly
-Zundfolge
-American By Blood
-CornCod
-MikeK
 
I don't know what the bill will have in it, but a BIG part of me wants the bill to be a scorched earth type bill. I actually hope the thing has all sorts of hidden details that cause major confrontations. I think that sort of thing would get the citizenry all "up in arms" pun intended. Purhaps we need a good kick in the teeth to wake some people up.
I fully agree with this. I have felt this way for some time. Add me to the list of "It will be done"

Question: How many agents are stationed at each of BATFE's 23 field office's? Or, lacking the info, how many agents does the BATFE employ?
 
Hofstadter argued that the “paranoid style” expresses itself in three habits: “heated exaggeration”, “suspiciousness” and “conspiratorial fantasy”.
Thank you. That's the summary I was looking for. The conversation I referenced consolidated the whole Leftist anti-GWB rhretoric:
- whatever could constitute a reasonable difference of opinion over a sensitive issue is expressed in "worst thing ever, end of the world" type hype
- any action is viewed with extreme suspicion, examined for "proof of evil intent"
- seriously entertaining the notion that anything unpleasant MUST be the result of deliberate plotting.
What scares me is that this guy is chief scientist and visionary for a company - someone who should be able to examine evidence rationally and come to sane conclusions, as opposed to (say) seriously entertaining the notion that the WTC was demolished on 9/11 thru deliberate planting of explosives at GWB's direction.

Interesting to compare this thread to the current one discussing bipolar disorder: the individuals (and categories thereof) in question are comparable in that they have a dangerously skewed view of the world, are messing up other lives as a result, and are firmly convinced (1) they are doing exactly the right thing, and (2) we are the freakwads.
 
If they want the white house in 2008, they will have to repress the most liberal among them from putting forth any anti-gun legislation.
Some of them may not agree, on the whole, with our gun views, but they are not dumb. There was absolutely no talk about anti-gun legislation in this election, and they realize that championing anti-gun legislation is political suicide.

They will propose a draconian ban that will be negotiated down to a huge tax on ammo, a ban on reloading and a one year to register all guns with the gov. bill.

They have alreeady proposed we be out of Iraq in 4-6 months, proposed a tax increase, and appeasement of Iran and Syria. So I predict within about a year we will see the worst terrorist attack on american soil ever, glad I dont live in NYC, San Francisco, Chicago, or Los Angeles. The liberals will then blame it on Bush and say he wasn't tough enough on terror, and the easy availibility of guns and the evil NRA got us into this mess.

Wake up folks the most leftist liberal Howling Moonbat wing of the Democrats is now incharge of the congress.
 
two steps closer today

First step:

Anti-gun-owner Steny Hoyer (MD) is the majority leader of the House, beating reportedly pro-gun-owner John Murtha (PA)

Second step:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/16/detroit.shootings.ap/index.html

2 killed, 3 hurt in Detroit shooting spree

POSTED: 10:50 a.m. EST, November 16, 2006

DETROIT, Michigan (AP) -- Police searched for a gunman after a series of shootings killed two people and wounded three others in the span of 10 minutes Thursday morning.

All the shootings were in a three- to four-block area on the city's west side, Detroit police spokesman James Tate said.

A 48-year-old woman and a 58-year-old man died in the shootings after 6 a.m., Tate said.

He said the woman was shot first, inside a vehicle in front of a day-care facility. There were no children at the day care at the time, and the shooting didn't appear to be related to the facility. The man was shot just around the corner.

Tate described the suspected shooter as a young man wearing a hooded sweatshirt. He said police had not established a motive for the shootings.
.

Event #1 now puts me in the "Succeed" camp.
 
Anti-gun-owner Steny Hoyer (MD) is the majority leader of the House, beating reportedly pro-gun-owner John Murtha (PA)

Haven't you heard? There are no more anti-gun Dems. They are all our friends, now, and don't want to take away our rights. At least, that's what I heard on THR.
 
The bigger news is that Lieberman has made it known that he has not ruled out caucusing with the Republicans, making the Senate 50-50. "Gridlockers" take note!
 
Buzz, not exactly

Hoyer is a total anti-gun-owner, but not all of the new guys are.

Various pundits have claimed that the plurality of the Democratic House caucus is now pro-gun-owner. I think this is true, based on what I have seen myself.

However, the ascension of Hoyer to be the guy in charge means that anti-gun-owner legislation has a new friend in high places. Murtha would have at least put the brakes on such bills. Hoyer will turbo charge them.

Hoyer won 149-86.

I have no doubt that many of these votes were CYA/don't PO the "big guy." Some were probably duped by the Murtha non-event when he refused a bribe. I can't say if any were supporting Hoyer's gun control affinity.
 
Hoyer is a total anti-gun-owner, but not all of the new guys are.

Various pundits have claimed that the plurality of the Democratic House caucus is now pro-gun-owner. I think this is true, based on what I have seen myself.

Who are these new pro-gun Democrats? Give us names.
 
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