The use of sights in CQB combat situations

[herrwalther]

Is this a theoretical discussion among those respondents that have never been in a gunfight or is it a discussion among those respondents that have been in a gunfight. Just asking???????????

Both. I can see this thread going along the lines of one we had not long ago about trainers who have "seen the elephant."

 

[WardenWolf]

I had a short-barreled paintball gun I used primarily for CQB. I fitted it with a 30mm red dot sight. Let me tell you something: good sights are amazingly useful in CQB, particularly where an opponent may only have part of their body exposed. I was literally rolling heads. My accuracy was far superior to those without one.

Basically, I'm a believer. I've done both, and I can tell you that good sights can help. But you want a large-tube no-parallax red dot. One that's not too sensitive to where your head is located. If that red dot is on the target, YOU should be on the target.

As for pistols, I practice both. I practice making sure the gun is aimed where I want it to be in a large variety of positions, so that it can be an extension of my hand. And I can shoot equally well with either hand.

 

[george burns]

If you have eve seen the cowboy single action fast draw shooters. None of them use their sights. they all manage to hit the bullseye in a split second with a single action pistol. It just takes practice. And it's all muscle memory. Most of them are in their 50's and 60's and have lost very little if any speed. They bend their bodies back to lift the gun to the target. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZpup4Q6dzo, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prSSC89fPtw

 

[Deaf Smith]

Cowboy action shooting ain't gunfighting. Bullets only go one way.

But actual gunfight veterans like Jim Cirillo say they did see their sights.

Deaf

 

[george burns]

The few times I drew my gun, I was too close to need sights, and honestly don't remember if I saw them or not. In one I was on the floor looking up, and the 2 others were in a vehicle, so I was seated.

 

[Matthew Temkin]

Cowboy action shooting ain't gunfighting. Bullets only go one way.

But actual gunfight veterans like Jim Cirillo say they did see their sights.

Deaf

I trained with Jim Cirillo--and have read all of his books/articles and seen his videos.
Also for several years I deer hunted in the same Catskill Mountain Lodge that his former partner Bill Allard hunted, where I got to pick his brain on many an evening by the fireplace.
And to be totally fair both were firm believers in learning both point and aimed fire.

Here is a friend of mine who is retired from both the Special Forces and N.Y.P.D. E.S.U. who teaches both point and aimed/precision shooting.
( And has been forced to kill several times in both police and military combat.)
http://americancombatevolutions.com/pages/About_Us.htm
To be honest, I could never understand why so many feel this is an either/or debate.

 

[Tirod]

I will add that the exercises to use "point" shooting with no sight acquisition at all were downright shocking the first time I tried it.

I wasn't aiming anywhere near where I thought I was.

I would heartily recommend the low light or even blindfolded exercises to discover just how far off your body alignment and coordination really are. Extensive practice is very much needed - we simply aren't the skilled aimers we might think we are.

In any exercise, it should be said that you don't start off trying to be fast - that is not recommended and justifiably dangerous. I knew a guy who was doing that, shot himself in the leg with a .357. It led to permanent crippling injuries that severely affected his life and eventually led to a premature death.

Since very few of us have been doing this for over 40 years and certainly haven't developed the skill to be exhibition shooters it needs to be repeated - don't start off trying to be fast. Start off trying to be safe, consistent, and smooth. Blundering around with a loaded handgun coming out of a holster is no time to discover your finger on the trigger a split second too soon when it goes off.

That is exactly how most LEO self inflicted injuries occur - and why the concept of extreme speed endangers the beginner. With that in mind, go slow adopting the technique because no one can gain decades of practice in just a few hundred draws.

Your family and bedroom furniture will thank you.

 

[LiveLife]

I will add that the exercises to use "point" shooting with no sight acquisition at all were downright shocking the first time I tried it.

I wasn't aiming anywhere near where I thought I was.

I would heartily recommend the low light or even blindfolded exercises to discover just how far off your body alignment and coordination really are. Extensive practice is very much needed - we simply aren't the skilled aimers we might think we are.

Thanks for the post and sharing your experience.

Point shooting requires practice but certainly doesn't require years to master. With deliberate training, most shooters I worked with got the hang of it with the first range session.

I first have the shooters point at 3 yards at COM with their eyes closed to give them a reality lesson of what their body will actually do with a pistol. Once they actualize what their "natural point of aim" is and see that they tend to aim low or "push" to anticipate recoil, I have them conduct this deliberate exercise.


1. Most of us have trained our body to point all of our lives and we can utilize this for point shooting. From where you are sitting or standing, point at the light switch or door knob with your index finger. Unless you have some physical issues, most of us will point right at the light switch or door knob. This is fine motor skill we have mastered our entire lives. If you imagine a laser line extending from the finger tip, you should visualize that line hitting the target.

2. With this visualization and index finger pointing, imagine a pistol in your hand with the barrel parallel with your index finger. Now imagine two parallel laser lines and point at various targets around the room.

3. At the range, place 4-6 dots (bingo dauber works well for this) evenly spaced on the target and set at 3 yards. While focusing at one of the dots, draw the pistol and point at the dot while visualizing two laser lines extending from the index finger and barrel to the dot.

5. After several practice draws, while focusing at the dot and not looking at the sights, draw and fire. Make vertical/horizontal adjustments at the shoulders (vertical) and waist (horizontal) while maintaining the same grip/stance. Walk the bullet holes to the dot with subsequent shots.

6. Once you can consistently shoot at the dot, next point and shoot at other dots on the target.

7. When you can consistently shoot at all the dots on the target, move the target to 5 yards, then to 7 yards. Pass criteria used is 4"-6" shot groups around each dot.


If you shoot matches, try double tapping while point shooting and practice until you can place two bullet holes anywhere on the target at will.

This is the deliberate training I use for this version of point shooting. Most shooters I have worked with will get the hang of it on the first range session and I tell them to keep practicing until they reach a comfortable level proficiency of being able to call the shots on the target. I also have them run the same drill with their eyes closed so they can further master this technique and build confidence to use in low light conditions.

Besides, this exercise gives you another fun thing to do at the range.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Cowboy action shooting ain't gunfighting. Bullets only go one way.

But actual gunfight veterans like Jim Cirillo say they did see their sights.

Deaf

To be honest, I could never understand why so many feel this is an either/or debate.

Well Matt, it ain't "either/or", just 'cowboy shooting' don't signify squat.

Even Jeff Cooper said "if you can't see your sights, bring the gun up as if you could see your sights."

As I've posted numerous times, index and trigger control are the keys. How you achieve your index is up to you.

Deaf

 

[Hangingrock]

BDS -

1. Most of us have trained our body to point all of our lives and we can utilize this for point shooting.

At what distance do you transition from point to sighted fire? There would seem to be a distance of diminishing accuracy potential or point shooting would be applied at extended distances.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

Part of Loui Awerbuck's class would focus on this when the bad guy was close up. He attributed to Jeff Cooper the flash sight picture where you just very quickly pick them up. He attributed to Cirilio (I think, my apologies if wrong. Loui was adamant about giving proper credit and I hope I am correct lest he haunt me this pm). It was in which the whole back of the gun is used as a sight. For a revolver, all you needed to do was make sure the cylinder look circular and not oval like in which you were seeing part of the cylinder. Same thing for a semiauto, you just wanted to see the back and not the sides. He had us test it and it works.

As for shooting from the hip, Loui had a story. He was teaching at a range in San Louis Obisbo and someone was shooting from the hip and hitting dead center chest shots. Loui in general felt that if someone had a system that worked well and at appropriate speed and was safe, he wouldn't try and talk you out of it. He pondered what to do in this situation. Either because of this or as part of the palled instruction, he placed the targets sideways (think bad guy shooting you from laying on bed and you need to shoot them). The hip shooter was then not able to make the shots. It illustrated the potential down fall of the individual's technique not being adaptable in a fluid situation.

Also, I agree with an earlier poster. I don't see this as either or. They are times when point shooting is perfectly fine.

Another point, a laser on a handgun could allow for point shooting. Of course, electronics can fail so you still need to practice using sights.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

When I was an adviser in Viet Nam, I carried my own Colt M357. I used it twice, and used the sights both times.

 

[LiveLife]

1. Most of us have trained our body to point all of our lives and we can utilize this for point shooting.

At what distance do you transition from point to sighted fire? There would seem to be a distance of diminishing accuracy

I tell people that distance depends on their abilities and pistols used. My criteria for transition to sighted shooting is the distance where you are not able to produce 4"-6" average shot groups or not be able to call the shots anywhere on the target. With certain full-size pistols like G17/G22/M&P45/Sig 1911, I can achieve this to 5-7 yards. But with compacts/subcompacts like G23/G27/PT145, it ranges from 3-5 yards. My G27 surprisingly shoots comparable to G22 and I have the most amount of trigger time with G22/G27 so I would feel more confident point shooting with G22/G27 at longer distances.

BUT, if I was actually in a gun fight for my life, I would quickly draw and point shoot to get the initial rounds on the threat AS I MOVED towards available cover and TRANSITIONED for sighted shooting WHILE anticipating additional threats. I have 10 rounds in my G23/G27 (I use Pearce +1 mag base for G27) and I run this exact drill where I draw and start point shooting 2-3 rounds and transition to sighted shooting with 2-3 rounds and anticipate engaging additional targets.

I talked to LEOs I shoot with and my wife's cousins who are LEOs and they say often first time shooters empty their magazine when they thought they only fired a few rounds. But since I have not been in an actual gun fight, my hope is that my training would default to quick draw and point shooting and hit COM.

 

[LiveLife]

if you have to shoot someone who is already shooting at you or is about to squeeze one off ... at distances 10-20 feet, there is no way that a full draw and 2 handed hold can possibly win against a one handed fast fire gunfighter.

Well, what choice do we have? We either fight or flight.

Some of us may freeze and perhaps get shot.
Some of us may duck and run for cover.
Some of us may decide to draw and return fire.

If someone pulls a gun at 10-20 feet and starts shooting at me, my initial reaction would most likely be, "Oh CRAP!" and my brain would overload but I hope I would draw and return fire. If I am going down, I am gonna go down fighting. Hopefully I hit the shooter in vital areas enough times to slow further attack.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

One of the reasons for practicing unsighted fire is to learn when you need to use the sights.

 

[Matthew Temkin]

Well Matt, it ain't "either/or", just 'cowboy shooting' don't signify squat.

Even Jeff Cooper said "if you can't see your sights, bring the gun up as if you could see your sights."

As I've posted numerous times, index and trigger control are the keys. How you achieve your index is up to you.

Deaf

True--but by constantly stating that Cirillo was able to use his sights in some of his gunfights is, it seems, insinuating that he did not also believe/teach point--A.K.A. Alternative sighting methods.
However--I will agree 100% with you that those who state that sights CAN NEVER BE USED in close combat are dead wrong.
Much depends upon the individual and the circumstances.

As I've posted numerous times, index and trigger control are the keys. How you achieve your index is up to you.

Roger that.

 

[Matthew Temkin]

At what distance do you transition from point to sighted fire? There would seem to be a distance of diminishing accuracy potential or point shooting would be applied at extended distances.

I like to place students at about 6 feet from the target and have them point shoot--with the gun at about chin level-- a double tap.
Then take a step back and point shoot another double tap.
Keep repeating the process.
Eventually the front sight will be very visible and that will pretty much resolve questions about the distance factor.

Thanks for the post and sharing your experience.

Point shooting requires practice but certainly doesn't require years to master. With deliberate training, most shooters I worked with got the hang of it with the first range session.

I first have the shooters point at 3 yards at COM with their eyes closed to give them a reality lesson of what their body will actually do with a pistol. Once they actualize what their "natural point of aim" is and see that they tend to aim low or "push" to anticipate recoil, I have them conduct this deliberate exercise.


1. Most of us have trained our body to point all of our lives and we can utilize this for point shooting. From where you are sitting or standing, point at the light switch or door knob with your index finger. Unless you have some physical issues, most of us will point right at the light switch or door knob. This is fine motor skill we have mastered our entire lives. If you imagine a laser line extending from the finger tip, you should visualize that line hitting the target.

2. With this visualization and index finger pointing, imagine a pistol in your hand with the barrel parallel with your index finger. Now imagine two parallel laser lines and point at various targets around the room.

3. At the range, place 4-6 dots (bingo dauber works well for this) evenly spaced on the target and set at 3 yards. While focusing at one of the dots, draw the pistol and point at the dot while visualizing two laser lines extending from the index finger and barrel to the dot.

5. After several practice draws, while focusing at the dot and not looking at the sights, draw and fire. Make vertical/horizontal adjustments at the shoulders (vertical) and waist (horizontal) while maintaining the same grip/stance. Walk the bullet holes to the dot with subsequent shots.

6. Once you can consistently shoot at the dot, next point and shoot at other dots on the target.

7. When you can consistently shoot at all the dots on the target, move the target to 5 yards, then to 7 yards. Pass criteria used is 4"-6" shot groups around each dot.


If you shoot matches, try double tapping while point shooting and practice until you can place two bullet holes anywhere on the target at will.

This is the deliberate training I use for this version of point shooting. Most shooters I have worked with will get the hang of it on the first range session and I tell them to keep practicing until they reach a comfortable level proficiency of being able to call the shots on the target. I also have them run the same drill with their eyes closed so they can further master this technique and build confidence to use in low light conditions.

Besides, this exercise gives you another fun thing to do at the range.
__________________
"I only do what the voices in my wife’s head tell her to tell me to do"

Revelation 19:11
Last edited by bds; Today at 03:09 PM.

Nice drills--I like it.

 

[LiveLife]

Thank you.

Being able to hit your targets with eye closed/blind folded is a neat demonstration that impresses new shooters and gets their attention right quick, more so than shooting a crooked smiley face on target.

 

[Col. Jankoski]

Wow very cool! I took a class like this both in the US Army, and from Massad Ayoob in Peterbourough N.H back some years ago. The US Military taught one thing.... in a fight use the front sight if you had to go to the .45 then you will be close and the .45 will do the job off just the front sight as most pistol battles occur at less than 20 feet.

That being said, when both of my brothers bought their first pistols two years ago they came to me their younger brother a hardened competitive shooter as to what to buy and how it works.

I did a series of video's for them entitled home defense......the first line? In a fight use just the front sight or point and fire. As someone who has been in a gunfight let me tell you the first few shots from adrenaline will make the shots flyers anyway. The third shot you have calmed down and everything is happening in hyper slow motion, training kicks in #1 make yourself a smaller target drop to one knee with a sideways cant to your stance do this simultaneously while bringing the weapon to the hand hold and aim-point you desire. You now will be in position to win in my case it was combat I stumbled into a four man perimeter gaurd team I was too close for my long rifle so I drew my .45 the first round was firing back at rounds that were hitting the ground in front of me as the bad guys were caught off gaurd too once I was lowered smaller and on target four shots four kills. After action report shows that the first three shots I fired all hit flesh but would not have been life threatening but must have hurt like hell. Anyway I am a proponent of point and shoot in a fight use the front site!

 

[LiveLife]

One of the reasons for practicing unsighted fire is to learn when you need to use the sights.

Very good point.

I stumbled into a four man perimeter gaurd team I was too close for my long rifle so I drew my .45 the first round was firing back at rounds that were hitting the ground in front of me as the bad guys were caught off gaurd too once I was lowered smaller and on target four shots four kills.

Good shooting and sounds like you kept a cool head too!

As someone who has been in a gunfight let me tell you the first few shots from adrenaline will make the shots flyers anyway. The third shot you have calmed down and everything is happening in hyper slow motion, training kicks in #1 make yourself a smaller target drop to one knee with a sideways cant to your stance do this simultaneously while bringing the weapon to the hand hold and aim-point you desire. You now will be in position to win

Thanks for the insight of an actual gun fight! We can theorize all we want but we won't know until bullets start flying.

 

[Sam1911]

Thanks for the insight of an actual gun fight! We can theorize all we want but we won't know until bullets start flying.

It's a funny thing. On the one hand there's the idea that concepts are just theories until they're tried under fire. On the other hand, violent shootings (outside of combat which is hardly applicable) are exceedingly rare events for almost anyone, even 99% of cops. And the fact is, great tactics still don't work to save lives in every case when they "should", and poor skills and tactics sometimes are still good and lucky enough to prevail in others when they "shouldn't". As the experience set of practitioners tends to be something less than ONE real test, on average, the value of the lessons learned from those singular events tends to get blown out of true statistical proportion.

To the guy who prevailed even though he closed his eyes and jerked the trigger madly until his slide locked back, sights really aren't that important. He's "seen the elephant" and knows what works...well, what worked, that one time, in his one moment of trial.

To the guy who saw his sights, controlled his trigger masterfully -- did everything RIGHT -- but who's luck and circumstances just were stacked against him and he did not prevail ... well, he "saw the elephant" too, and his take-home lesson might be equally misinterpreted.

We really don't have good, solid data from repeatable, controlled testing. We don't even have general statistics on shootings that seem to make much useful sense. The records of trainers like Tom Givens, who compiles the experiences of shooters he's trained who've ended up using their firearms defensively, are the closest thing we have to a start at this kind of real-world information-gathering. But then, of course, his students are going to proceed with a basis in the sort of tactics and skills that he teaches, so confirmation bias is a concern.

 

[Deaf Smith]

We really don't have good, solid data from repeatable, controlled testing. We don't even have general statistics on shootings that seem to make much useful sense. The records of trainers like Tom Givens, who compiles the experiences of shooters he's trained who've ended up using their firearms defensively, are the closest thing we have to a start at this kind of real-world information-gathering. But then, of course, his students are going to proceed with a basis in the sort of tactics and skills that he teaches, so confirmation bias is a concern.

True, but at least Tom's students won! The only ones that failed, two of them, didn't bring a gun (and you know that tends to work out.)

I am sure there are many techniques that 'may' work out in any specific set of circumstances, but Tom's have worked.

Oh, and many of his students who were in gunfight just took his ccw course.

I suspect there is no 100 percent formula cause no matter how you train you can't cover 100 percent of the stuations nor people's mental state.

But the keys are, trigger control and index. Lose either one and you miss.

And if you don't keep your eyes wide open you won't see it coming, and that is even more important.

Deaf

 

[Matthew Temkin]

And if you don't keep your eyes wide open you won't see it coming, and that is even more important.

A big 10-4 to that good buddy.

I work part time as an armed escort--mainly meeting ATM technicians at high risk sites where I watch their backs while they service the machines.
Last month I had a call in Brooklyn at 0100 and I saw a young guy with his hand in his pocket approaching us in a stealth manner from across the street.
( The tech had the money cassettes out of the machine and on the floor at this point.)
We made eye contact when he was about 60 feet away which caused him to pick up his pace as he closed in.
I immediately went for my holstered gun with my right hand while throwing up a stop sign with my left and ordered him to get the heck away from us.
He did--at a pretty good clip.
Had it gone to guns the distance would have been well over 30 feet which has caused me to do a lot more practice now with front sight focus out to about 30 yards.
Hey--you never know...
But nothing can replace awareness as a primary means to survival.

 

[herrwalther]

I talked to my police officer friend who works in a major metro area with a high crime rate, averaging about 4 armed encounters a year. At the beginning of his career he was a student of the half aim down sights, half point shoot. Now he is a bit more seasoned after 4 years on the job. He called me asking for advice for sight upgrades on his duty G21. For someone who has "seen the elephant" that is some pretty strong wisdom and reasoning to use sights.

 

[LiveLife]

Perhaps the OP could clarify but I think we are deviating from the premise of the thread.

We are not discussing what is "ideal" or "optimal" for defensive shooting. What we are discussing is if someone is shooting at you or about to pull the trigger at 10 to 20 feet (less than 7 yards), can you quickly draw and fire 2 shots without ever seeing the pistol.

if you have to shoot someone who is already shooting at you or is about to squeeze one off ...

It's just impossible for a human to draw raise the gun to eye level line up the sights, "no matter how quick he is" rather than draw lean slightly back and fire two shots without ever seeing the gun.

Of course this takes practice and should only be done after months of careful baby steps. But once achieved, at distances 10-20 feet, there is no way that a full draw and 2 handed hold can possibly win against a one handed fast fire gunfighter.

Of course, it would be nice to have sighted shooting but when the threat is already shooting at you or about to shoot you 10-20 feet away, we may have to resort to different technique/tactics, hence the discussion on point/unsighted shooting.