The use of sights in CQB combat situations
- Thread starter george burns
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Deaf Smith
Member
Actually, if '10 to 20 feet (less than 7 yards)' you can bring the gun up to eye level and fire virtually as fast as 3/4 hip and not more than a tenth of a second slower than 1/2 hip.
What you don't do is ADJUST the sights. You just VERIFY there is a rough aliment and fire. It's virtually instantaneous.
YOU DO NOT SLOW DOWN TO adjust sights. And if you cannot see the sights, you bring the gun up AS IF you could see the sights.
Here is 'understanding flash sight picture'.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fEE5GB-nu4
and very interesting...
The master speaks on: flash sight picture (yes Jeff Cooper himself.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dui0uXu121Y
Deaf
What you don't do is ADJUST the sights. You just VERIFY there is a rough aliment and fire. It's virtually instantaneous.
YOU DO NOT SLOW DOWN TO adjust sights. And if you cannot see the sights, you bring the gun up AS IF you could see the sights.
Here is 'understanding flash sight picture'.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fEE5GB-nu4
and very interesting...
The master speaks on: flash sight picture (yes Jeff Cooper himself.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dui0uXu121Y
Deaf
At 10ft (and closing) I don't want to fully extend my gun out. Also, just me, but I would never use speed as a reason to point shoot. A well-trained shooter for all practical purposes is just as fast on the sights.
Point shooting is a valid skill because sights may not be able to be seen, distances may be so short full extension is not prudent, and why not get a hit on the way to extension and sighted fire?
Point shooting is a valid skill because sights may not be able to be seen, distances may be so short full extension is not prudent, and why not get a hit on the way to extension and sighted fire?
Deaf Smith
Member
Strambo,
Jeff Cooper's 'modern technique' has what is called the speed rock for retention shooting. In fact every trainer that I'm aware of has some form of hip shooting method.
But we were discussing '10 to 20 feet (less than 7 yards)' . One will just have to decide where their minimum distance is to go to belt level shooting.
Deaf
Jeff Cooper's 'modern technique' has what is called the speed rock for retention shooting. In fact every trainer that I'm aware of has some form of hip shooting method.
But we were discussing '10 to 20 feet (less than 7 yards)' . One will just have to decide where their minimum distance is to go to belt level shooting.
Deaf
Deaf,
I'm not really disagreeing with you, just proposing that perhaps there is a need for something beyond retention PS or sighted fire at full extension.
Half hip is way more accurate than shooting from the retention position, notebook paper accurate at 4 yds (12ft), 3/4 hip is better still. Given how fast a dynamic gunfight at 10-20 ft can collapse into a grappling brawl-fight for your life (remember, a heart shot still allows them 7-30s of conscious voluntary control), I think there is validity to PS skills beyond retention range into the 10-15ft territory.
And...there is still the situation when you can't see the sights no matter the range. Night sights are great but does everyone have them and are they still bright? (Mine on my K9 are finally too dim too use from 2002, haven't got them changed yet).
90% of my training and practice is sighted fire so I'm not a die hard PS advocate, but it does have a place in the range the OP talks about.
I'm not really disagreeing with you, just proposing that perhaps there is a need for something beyond retention PS or sighted fire at full extension.
Half hip is way more accurate than shooting from the retention position, notebook paper accurate at 4 yds (12ft), 3/4 hip is better still. Given how fast a dynamic gunfight at 10-20 ft can collapse into a grappling brawl-fight for your life (remember, a heart shot still allows them 7-30s of conscious voluntary control), I think there is validity to PS skills beyond retention range into the 10-15ft territory.
And...there is still the situation when you can't see the sights no matter the range. Night sights are great but does everyone have them and are they still bright? (Mine on my K9 are finally too dim too use from 2002, haven't got them changed yet).
90% of my training and practice is sighted fire so I'm not a die hard PS advocate, but it does have a place in the range the OP talks about.
Driftertank
Member
I've never been in a gunfight, God willing, I never will. But I sort of look at this from both sides. When I practice defensive shooting, I practice drawing and acquiring the sights then quickly putting accurate shots on target. Because I figure that when your life is on the line, autopilot kicks in and you do what you practice until your brain gets back out front.
That said, when people ask me what kind of handgun I recommend they get for defensive carry, rather than a brand and model, I tell them to get the one that "fits" them. It should be comfortable in the hand, and one of the most important tests I recommend is to take a gun they think they like at the store, and pick a safe direction to point it (a wall or corner away from people) and find a spot to "target" on it. Then close their eyes and point the gun to where they think it is aiming at said spot. Open the eyes, and without moving the gun, see where the sights are aimed. If it's reasonably close to on target, that gun fits well. If they're way off because of grip angle or shape or whatever, I don't care how much they like the gun, it's a poor choice for defensive carry.
My reasoning is that regardless of how much practice is put in on the range, if they get mugged, or someone breaks in at night, or whatever unpredictable circumstance may put their lives at risk, they should be able to fire at close range and stand a decent chance of hitting their assailant with or without sight picture. So a handgun which points naturally is a necessity there.
As they say, just my two cents' worth.
That said, when people ask me what kind of handgun I recommend they get for defensive carry, rather than a brand and model, I tell them to get the one that "fits" them. It should be comfortable in the hand, and one of the most important tests I recommend is to take a gun they think they like at the store, and pick a safe direction to point it (a wall or corner away from people) and find a spot to "target" on it. Then close their eyes and point the gun to where they think it is aiming at said spot. Open the eyes, and without moving the gun, see where the sights are aimed. If it's reasonably close to on target, that gun fits well. If they're way off because of grip angle or shape or whatever, I don't care how much they like the gun, it's a poor choice for defensive carry.
My reasoning is that regardless of how much practice is put in on the range, if they get mugged, or someone breaks in at night, or whatever unpredictable circumstance may put their lives at risk, they should be able to fire at close range and stand a decent chance of hitting their assailant with or without sight picture. So a handgun which points naturally is a necessity there.
As they say, just my two cents' worth.
Matthew Temkin
Member
Deaf,
I'm not really disagreeing with you, just proposing that perhaps there is a need for something beyond retention PS or sighted fire at full extension.
Half hip is way more accurate than shooting from the retention position, notebook paper accurate at 4 yds (12ft), 3/4 hip is better still. Given how fast a dynamic gunfight at 10-20 ft can collapse into a grappling brawl-fight for your life (remember, a heart shot still allows them 7-30s of conscious voluntary control), I think there is validity to PS skills beyond retention range into the 10-15ft territory.
And...there is still the situation when you can't see the sights no matter the range. Night sights are great but does everyone have them and are they still bright? (Mine on my K9 are finally too dim too use from 2002, haven't got them changed yet).
90% of my training and practice is sighted fire so I'm not a die hard PS advocate, but it does have a place in the range the OP talks about.
I think this is where to bulk of the disagreement lies.
I do not know how Deaf defines retention shooting, but to me it is similar to Southnarc's #2, where the gun is held very, very close to the body.
I do not agree that this and fully extended shooting is the core of close combat shooting.
In fact, I feel that both 1/2 and 3/4 are the foundation of close range self defense since so many encounters are withing 10 feet.
God willing, I never will. But I sort of look at this from both sides. When I practice defensive shooting, I practice drawing and acquiring the sights then quickly putting accurate shots on target. Because I figure that when your life is on the line, autopilot kicks in and you do what you practice until your brain gets back out front.
This is actually a pretty good plan of action, since doing so will make indexing the target--be it with or W/O sights-a reflexive action.
I'm not really disagreeing with you, just proposing that perhaps there is a need for something beyond retention PS or sighted fire at full extension.
Half hip is way more accurate than shooting from the retention position, notebook paper accurate at 4 yds (12ft), 3/4 hip is better still. Given how fast a dynamic gunfight at 10-20 ft can collapse into a grappling brawl-fight for your life (remember, a heart shot still allows them 7-30s of conscious voluntary control), I think there is validity to PS skills beyond retention range into the 10-15ft territory.
And...there is still the situation when you can't see the sights no matter the range. Night sights are great but does everyone have them and are they still bright? (Mine on my K9 are finally too dim too use from 2002, haven't got them changed yet).
90% of my training and practice is sighted fire so I'm not a die hard PS advocate, but it does have a place in the range the OP talks about.
I think this is where to bulk of the disagreement lies.
I do not know how Deaf defines retention shooting, but to me it is similar to Southnarc's #2, where the gun is held very, very close to the body.
I do not agree that this and fully extended shooting is the core of close combat shooting.
In fact, I feel that both 1/2 and 3/4 are the foundation of close range self defense since so many encounters are withing 10 feet.
God willing, I never will. But I sort of look at this from both sides. When I practice defensive shooting, I practice drawing and acquiring the sights then quickly putting accurate shots on target. Because I figure that when your life is on the line, autopilot kicks in and you do what you practice until your brain gets back out front.
This is actually a pretty good plan of action, since doing so will make indexing the target--be it with or W/O sights-a reflexive action.
Deaf Smith
Member
I consider hip shooting to be for both retention and speed (just one method to work on.)
The whole point of retention shooting is to, well retain the weapon, and as long as it's near belt level, to me, that is good enough. So I find Bill Jordan's hip shooting, or SNs, or the speed rock or whatever, as long as the weapon is not thrusted forward, is fine. And as such it can be used easily out to 3 yards or so (the 10 ft marker we are talking about.)
Outside that distance one can bring the weapon up to eye sight level. If you want to ignore the sights, fine with me, but they are there if it's at eye level.
1/2 and 3/4 positions are icing on the cake. If you want to add them to ones skill set that is great, but as a core no. Keep it simple, a hip/retention method and a sighted fire method (or at lease one that can be so used.)
Deaf
Matthew Temkin
Member
1/2 and 3/4 positions are icing on the cake.
1/2 hip--as per your definition--is hip shooting.
In fact, W.E. Fairbairn stated that it works well out to about 3 yards--as do you.
3/4 hip is nothing more than a natural method of shooting somewhere between going from 1/2 hip to full extension.
Gunsite Academy Instructor Bob Whaley discusses flash site picture and the importance of using your sights at all times when shooting. (NSSF Video)
Thanks for the link to the Gunsite video--according to them one should use sights at all times except when within arms reach--do you agree with that???
Outside that distance one can bring the weapon up to eye sight level. If you want to ignore the sights, fine with me, but they are there if it's at eye level.
We will have to agree to disagree that a shooter would be well served with just retention shooting and having the gun out to full extension.
BTW--this is a pretty good illustration by what I mean by 1/2 hip
https://www.google.com/search?q=fai...orums.org%2Fshooting-drills-t980.html;320;427
This is 3/4 hip
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/no-second-place-winner-bill-jordan/1101412538?ean=9780936279091
1/2 hip--as per your definition--is hip shooting.
In fact, W.E. Fairbairn stated that it works well out to about 3 yards--as do you.
3/4 hip is nothing more than a natural method of shooting somewhere between going from 1/2 hip to full extension.
Gunsite Academy Instructor Bob Whaley discusses flash site picture and the importance of using your sights at all times when shooting. (NSSF Video)
Thanks for the link to the Gunsite video--according to them one should use sights at all times except when within arms reach--do you agree with that???
Outside that distance one can bring the weapon up to eye sight level. If you want to ignore the sights, fine with me, but they are there if it's at eye level.
We will have to agree to disagree that a shooter would be well served with just retention shooting and having the gun out to full extension.
BTW--this is a pretty good illustration by what I mean by 1/2 hip
https://www.google.com/search?q=fai...orums.org%2Fshooting-drills-t980.html;320;427
This is 3/4 hip
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/no-second-place-winner-bill-jordan/1101412538?ean=9780936279091
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Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
Old school FBI training film - http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=466_1428095241
This is why Awerbuck used to say that 'the state of the art is a moving target.'
This is why Awerbuck used to say that 'the state of the art is a moving target.'
LiveLife
Member
I would not attempt DA point shooting with a revolver or even a semi-auto with a long/heavy DAO trigger. If you are at Jerry Miculek level of proficiency with a revolver, that would be different.
I have practiced with sliding, rocking, spinning and bobbing targets and it is difficult to hit them with point shooting.
But hitting a moving human-sized target like USPSA/IDPA size sliding target is very doable at 5-7 yards with two-handed point shooting at eye level. Would I attempt headshot at a moving target? No way, but center-of-mass? Yes.
I have practiced with sliding, rocking, spinning and bobbing targets and it is difficult to hit them with point shooting.
But hitting a moving human-sized target like USPSA/IDPA size sliding target is very doable at 5-7 yards with two-handed point shooting at eye level. Would I attempt headshot at a moving target? No way, but center-of-mass? Yes.
LiveLife
Member
Take a look at this series of videos from Downrange TV by D.R. Middlebrooks. In the first video titled "Surgical Point Shooting", he point shoots at eye level a pistol without sights and hits 18"x24" plate at 25/50/75/100 yards then he shoots metal spinners at 10 yards
[YOUTUBE]sjil10f6LeI[/YOUTUBE]
In the second video titled "High Speed Point Shooting", double taps and high speed point shooting is done at 10 yards including his 53 year old wife Barb point shooting.
[YOUTUBE]WOPOu8EL1mE[/YOUTUBE]
In the third video he covers the reasons for "Why Point Shoot?":
- Speed
- National average of defensive shooting at less than 7 yards
- Reality of bad guy ambush from close odd positions and no luxury of enough distance to extend out arm/pistol to use sights
- Need to guard pistol from being taken away
- Low light conditions
- Getting eye glasses knocked off (Hmmmm, I need to add "no glasses" to my range drills)
At 3:30 minute mark, he demonstrates close range shooting techniques which utilize hip shots instead of center-of-mass hits (My defensive training instructor did cover hip shots as a means to circumvent threats wearing body armor).
[YOUTUBE]6pqghSWDdOY[/YOUTUBE]
In the fourth video, he discusses "Integrated Point Shooting":
- Conventional "front sight press" is one dimensional shooting
- Real street fighting may require shooting from retention, partial extension, 3/4 extension or full extension
- Point shooting can be integrated with sighted shooting
- Demonstrates 3 levels of presentation of retention/guard position, partial extension and full extension point shooting at 7 yards with and without movement
[YOUTUBE]lcjHl9kzpug[/YOUTUBE]
More videos on this link covering "Evolution of Combat Pistol Shooting" and "The Ultimate Grip, Stance & Pistol Presentation" - http://www.tacticalshooting.com/videos
[YOUTUBE]sjil10f6LeI[/YOUTUBE]
In the second video titled "High Speed Point Shooting", double taps and high speed point shooting is done at 10 yards including his 53 year old wife Barb point shooting.
[YOUTUBE]WOPOu8EL1mE[/YOUTUBE]
In the third video he covers the reasons for "Why Point Shoot?":
- Speed
- National average of defensive shooting at less than 7 yards
- Reality of bad guy ambush from close odd positions and no luxury of enough distance to extend out arm/pistol to use sights
- Need to guard pistol from being taken away
- Low light conditions
- Getting eye glasses knocked off (Hmmmm, I need to add "no glasses" to my range drills)
At 3:30 minute mark, he demonstrates close range shooting techniques which utilize hip shots instead of center-of-mass hits (My defensive training instructor did cover hip shots as a means to circumvent threats wearing body armor).
[YOUTUBE]6pqghSWDdOY[/YOUTUBE]
In the fourth video, he discusses "Integrated Point Shooting":
- Conventional "front sight press" is one dimensional shooting
- Real street fighting may require shooting from retention, partial extension, 3/4 extension or full extension
- Point shooting can be integrated with sighted shooting
- Demonstrates 3 levels of presentation of retention/guard position, partial extension and full extension point shooting at 7 yards with and without movement
[YOUTUBE]lcjHl9kzpug[/YOUTUBE]
More videos on this link covering "Evolution of Combat Pistol Shooting" and "The Ultimate Grip, Stance & Pistol Presentation" - http://www.tacticalshooting.com/videos
LiveLife
Member
As illustrated in the above videos, I think point shooting has place in CQB situations with deliberate training and practice.
So anyone thinking about adding point shooting to their close range defensive shooting drills?
Anyone tried out some of the point shooting techniques discussed/demonstrated on this thread like the ones listed on post #33? - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9859706#post9859706
So anyone thinking about adding point shooting to their close range defensive shooting drills?
Anyone tried out some of the point shooting techniques discussed/demonstrated on this thread like the ones listed on post #33? - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9859706#post9859706
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brownie0486
Member
Take your pick, the vids demonstrate several threat focused skills, out to 35 yrds
https://www.youtube.com/user/azqkr/videos
https://www.youtube.com/user/azqkr/videos
I shot my Colt Commander with the sights removed just for kicks. I actually did pretty well. I have a video somewhere, but I can't find it. Anyhow, if a person has a decent index, they might be suprised how well they can shoot with the slide seen peripherally.
Matthew Temkin
Member
if a person has a decent index, they might be suprised how well they can shoot with the slide seen peripherally.
Ditto for total target focus--no reference to the gun or it's parts whatsoever.
Ditto for total target focus--no reference to the gun or it's parts whatsoever.
OP
OP
george burns
Member
Everyone should practice this, and, or , take a course if they can. I have never had the time to line up my sights in the few confrontations I have had over 45 years. That's why I don't even practice with my sights anymore.
They are there for competition and Night use , if a laser or night sights" are available, I do have a tritium front sight on all of my guns.
I know that I will only be likely to get a front sight, "if anything" on a man sized target, that is either on top of me or running towards me.
It doesn't really matter if someone is at arms length anyway.
It's more important to be able to deploy the gun quickly, and that is where 90% of people fail, they have this imaginary movie running in their hear where they are going to see and have time to respond to a threat.
In reality, it happens so fast that you are lucky to survive it.
They are there for competition and Night use , if a laser or night sights" are available, I do have a tritium front sight on all of my guns.
I know that I will only be likely to get a front sight, "if anything" on a man sized target, that is either on top of me or running towards me.
It doesn't really matter if someone is at arms length anyway.
It's more important to be able to deploy the gun quickly, and that is where 90% of people fail, they have this imaginary movie running in their hear where they are going to see and have time to respond to a threat.
In reality, it happens so fast that you are lucky to survive it.
Hangingrock
Member
What is the bottom line to become proficient in Point-Shooting?
Hours of training and ammunition expenditure?
To maintain competency follow up training and ammunition expenditure on a periodical schedule?
What would be standardized qualification course of fire and minimal acceptable scoring standard?
Hours of training and ammunition expenditure?
To maintain competency follow up training and ammunition expenditure on a periodical schedule?
What would be standardized qualification course of fire and minimal acceptable scoring standard?
Matthew Temkin
Member
What is the bottom line to become proficient in Point-Shooting?
Hours of training and ammunition expenditure?
For some on who is already proficient with a handgun maybe 2 hours and about 100 rounds for the basics.
I have taught a 4 hour class to experienced police/military instructors and after 4 hours and about 500 rounds they have learned just about every trick in the book--at least the book that I prescribe to.
Because point shooting follows the body's natural tendencies, once learned it needs very little additional practice to make it work for keeps.
My friend Steve Hayden uses a two day approach, but the core concepts are covered in the first two hours of live fire range time.
http://americancombatevolutions.com/pages/About_Us.htm
Hours of training and ammunition expenditure?
For some on who is already proficient with a handgun maybe 2 hours and about 100 rounds for the basics.
I have taught a 4 hour class to experienced police/military instructors and after 4 hours and about 500 rounds they have learned just about every trick in the book--at least the book that I prescribe to.
Because point shooting follows the body's natural tendencies, once learned it needs very little additional practice to make it work for keeps.
My friend Steve Hayden uses a two day approach, but the core concepts are covered in the first two hours of live fire range time.
http://americancombatevolutions.com/pages/About_Us.htm
Yes, the point shooting learning curve is much steeper than sighted fire and the skills are less perishable.
I think PS practice 0-5 yds is reasonable with occasional practice at 7&10yds just for familiarity in case you find yourself in a situation where you can't see your sights at that range.
I think PS practice 0-5 yds is reasonable with occasional practice at 7&10yds just for familiarity in case you find yourself in a situation where you can't see your sights at that range.
blarby
Member
Too late, BDS.
This is VERY HARD with a revolver, but I'm already practicing it.
Hands makes it harder, but really, just motivates me more.
This is a difficult skill with a wheelgun !
This is VERY HARD with a revolver, but I'm already practicing it.
Hands makes it harder, but really, just motivates me more.
This is a difficult skill with a wheelgun !
Kevin Rohrer
Member
Don't know what you are asking, but I don't bother/need sights if the target is <30-feet away. My rounds hit center-of-mass.
The Guru once told us, "You can't miss fast enough. Draw quickly, shoot carefully".
The Guru once told us, "You can't miss fast enough. Draw quickly, shoot carefully".
LiveLife
Member
Everyone posting without reading the OP or the entirety of the thread, OP posed a very specific shooting situation and application of point shooting. IMO, this thread is not about the validity of point shooting or whether point shooting is as accurate as sighted shooting.
It's about the possibility of fast unsighted shooting hitting the target when someone is already shooting at you or about to shoot you.
1. Draw and fire quickly unsighted without moving
2. Draw and fire slowly sighted without moving
3. Draw and fire quickly unsighted while moving
4. Draw and fire slowly sighted while moving
Question is WHAT CAN BE DONE WHILE SOMEONE IS SHOOTING AT YOU OR ABOUT TO SHOOT (I am assuming the shooter already has gun drawn).
It's about the possibility of fast unsighted shooting hitting the target when someone is already shooting at you or about to shoot you.
With this premise, I think we should continue the discussion whether/how we can counter when someone is already shooting at us or about to shoot with the following options:george burns said:
1. Draw and fire quickly unsighted without moving
2. Draw and fire slowly sighted without moving
3. Draw and fire quickly unsighted while moving
4. Draw and fire slowly sighted while moving
Question is WHAT CAN BE DONE WHILE SOMEONE IS SHOOTING AT YOU OR ABOUT TO SHOOT (I am assuming the shooter already has gun drawn).
DT Guy
Member
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Col. Cooper, and others, created IPSC (which today is USPSA in America) to practice hitting man-sized targets as quickly as possible. It's configured to place large penalties on hitting the wrong target, and large penalties for failing to hit a threat at least once.
Did you ever notice the title of the monthly magazine for USPSA? It's called, "Just look over the top of the gun really quickly"
No, actually, it isn't.
Larry
Did you ever notice the title of the monthly magazine for USPSA? It's called, "Just look over the top of the gun really quickly"
No, actually, it isn't.
Larry
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