The use of sights in CQB combat situations

[george burns]

I was reading an article the other day, as most of us do when one presents itself that we find interesting. This guy, "I read a lot of articles, and his name isn't important for this particular discussion. But he teaches a 3 or 4 day class on gun fighting where the sights are never used at all.
Reason being, "they take too long" to raise the gun up and put them into action.
Now some may just accept this as I do as strictly making sense, where others will insist that there is a way that allows you to use your sights and it doesn't take any more time than the other way around.
But actually if you have to shoot someone who is already shooting at you or is about to squeeze one off, there is no way you can shoot as fast as just clearing the holster and firing from the hip, like the gunfighters or even the cowboy single action shooters do now.
It's just impossible for a human to draw raise the gun to eye level line up the sights, "no matter how quick he is" rather than draw lean slightly back and fire two shots without ever seeing the gun.
Of course this takes practice and should only be done after months of careful baby steps.
But once achieved, at distances 10-20 feet, there is no way that a full draw and 2 handed hold can possibly win against a one handed fast fire gunfighter. The conversation awaits your input. I look forward to your exchange.

 

[Hardtarget]

I see what you're saying. I'd really like to take a class to see if I could make it work.

I've done very little "instinct" shooting...and not been very impressed with my results!

If you take a class be sure to give us a bit of insight on it. I would like to know how it goes.

Mark

 

[wally]

Invest in a realistic AirSoft replica of your carry gun and give it a go. When proficient, move to live fire practice.

I'm a believer.

 

[rcmodel]

There are two different schools of thought on that.

Col. Rex Applegate was a proponent of point shooting in Pre-WWII.
And taught it to the FBI.
He died of old age in 1998, so it got him through life in some very rough places.

The FBI stopped using point shooting when they finally figured out it didn't work without more training then they could afford.

Col. Jeff Cooper was a proponent of fast aimed fire.
And he was faster and more accurate then Applegate.
He died of old age too.

Wyatt Earp said... 'You need to take your time in a hurry. Fast is fine but accuracy is final.'
He never lost a gunfight.

There was a time 50 years ago when I could throw a can in the air, draw, and hit it 6 times with a .45 revolver.
But that was then, and this is now.
Then, I was shooting 500 rounds a week in DA practice.
Now, I couldn't hit a can in the air with a tennis racquet.

The other thing is, accurate point shooting from below sight line is a fine motor skill.
And fine motor skills are the first thing to go to hell in a hand cart in a life or death gun fight!

Now today, myself, it's take your time quickly -- FRONT SIGHT, FRONT SIGHT, FRONT SIGHT!!!!!

Like the old gunfighter said years ago.
' Fast is fine but accuracy is final.'

rc

 

[Twiki357]

I can see where point shooting can be fast and effective at close (20 feet or less) ranges. I have played with it a couple times and found that using a squeeze activated laser grip on a 1911, I can generally put the laser dot on a human size target at least 90+% of the time. That’s occasional playing, not actually practicing. Definitely not the preferred method of self defence.

 

[Inebriated]

But actually if you have to shoot someone who is already shooting at you or is about to squeeze one off, there is no way you can shoot as fast as just clearing the holster and firing from the hip, like the gunfighters or even the cowboy single action shooters do now.

Think through an actual altercation you may find yourself in. You don't have a CAS holster, you have one that holds the gun securely, tight to the body, and most likely under a shirt. You probably have a shorter barrel and grip, as well. And let's not forget that you have a person that is shooting at you.

You really think that standing still and trying to quickdraw is going to keep you alive?

What's the first thing that you learn in any decent class, after learning to draw? Drawing on the move. Get off the line of attack while you draw and get the gun up. Or more accurately, draw while you get off the line of attack, because not being in front of the gun should be your first priority.

Standing still will get you killed, no matter how fast you think you can draw and hit (or most likely miss).

 

[Tirod]

The OP's scenario isn't the normal altercation. If you are reacting to someone who is a skilled shooter firing at you, a lot of things were going very badly in the first place.

Synthesizing a situation which supports a conclusion is common on the internet. That doesn't mean the technique won't work, but does point out that deliberately standing your ground and yet not having gun in hand due to the evident circumstances is already flawed.

Most violent offenders would have likely ambushed you and the intent isn't to allow enough time to return fire. I don't see how this method is sufficient to overcome a time and tactics disadvantage that is nearly overwhelming from the onset. If the opponent is already firing at you - better to attempt one well aimed shot, it will likely be the only one you get. It will not necessarily save your life, just prevent him from further preying on others.

Better to discuss how to recognize the situation ahead of time and avoid being a victim of our own denial.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

in an ambush situation, yeah ok maybe at really short distances like 10 feet or less. Otherwise you're just wasting your ammo, or it requires a level of training and practice I can't afford.

I'm with the "Fast is fine but accuracy is final." crowd. Aim, and if you can't aim fast, practice a lot more. Dry fire practice goes a long way, and that first shot is the most important one.

 

[hso]

I suspect the article wasn't quite saying the sights aren't used, but just in case it did... no, the sights are used in Point Shooting, they're just not used as in the Modern Shooting method.

You focus on the threat and put the front sight on the threat before squeezing the trigger. The eye and mind will be working "behind the scenes" with your peripheral vision and proprioception to align the front and rear sight as long as you've put the time in to practice this technique. Where speed is more essential than precision, haste is not.

The other important point is that you can't rush the shot to the point you miss and hope to win. You must practice with the technique and you must be accurate enough with it at very close range to put hits on target.

 

[wally]

AirSoft, especially "force on force" if you've got the friends who'd like to help decide the issue, really shines in these debates.

Do like I did, start with a cheap <$20 AirSoft that approximates what you carry, read the references and give it a go. You can draw and point shoot while moving, I've gotten good at sidestepping through a doorway as I draw and reaching back around to point shoot.

If you believe its something that could help in some scenarios, (like a laser sight) invest in one of the realistic replicas of your carry gun ($100-200) and get serious with the practice.

 

[buntline]

I'm with Tirod on this. A lot of time used up trying to develop a fast draw and an instinctive snap shot could probably be used more profitably by thinking about how to deal with situations BEFORE the bullets start flying.

I ALWAYS meet strangers with a smile, even when they are trespassing or behaving suspiciously, all the while putting myself into a favorable position. Instead of asking a couple of guys "what are you doing here?" I ask them "can I help you find whatever you are looking for?" And I ask it while sitting in the truck, engine running, pistol already in my hand, out of sight. I'm not really a sportsman about SD.

I'm hard of hearing, so when I am working alone I spend a fair amount of time looking around for anyone approaching. Chances are, if I don't know them, I'll be greeting them from the far side of a 2000 lb. milling machine and tell them not to come inside the shop, because it is dangerous in there.

Of course, there are a million urban and social situations where I would be a sitting duck, because I am neither urban nor social, and lack the experience or motivations to develop strategies to suit those situations, but in general I try pretty hard to keep people at a subtle disadvantage until I figure out what they are about.

Doesn't mean I can't be "had", but it does mean my defense is not depending on split-second reactions that deserted me years ago......Joe

 

[Sam1911]

This is one of those hotly debated topics that is hotly debated -- IMHO -- mostly because folks have trouble putting what they do and see into words and communicating clearly.

I doubt most "point shooting" devotees are really saying that sights are irrelevant. Or at least that what they DO backs that up.

As I've posted before...

There is not one single way of using the sights correctly, but a range or "continuum" of sight refinement that represents using the sights to the degree you MUST for any given distance and situation.

At <2 yards, with practice, all you need really is a body index to the target. Shooting from retention (Position 2 of the draw-stroke) and orienting your torso toward the threat will put hits on the target. (Without extending the gun toward the threat, so he can grab it and/or deflect your shot.)

More distance, like out to 4-5 yards for most folks, you can get those hits by just seeing the silhouette of the back of the slide flash into view, superimposed on the threat in front of you. At those distances you have close to zero time to work with and your focus is going to be entirely on that threat. Seeing peripherally that the gun is pointed the right way and held on the target will be enough to put those hits on the target.

Adding a little more distance, you need that front sight to come clearly into view. The focus starts to shift away from the target itself, and fully onto the front sight. That's the primary mechanism for MOST good pistol shooting: See the front sight in clear focus and put that sharp, focused front sight directly on the target, which is slightly blurry in your distant field of view. That should be able to carry you out to at least 20 yards, IMHO, as long as your trigger control is good.

Much longer range than that will start to require careful "dressing" of the sight picture where you take the time to really SEE the rear sight and the front sight and get off that slow "surprise break" of the trigger.

Real mastery comes in being able to make the transition smoothly and naturally from one target to the next -- at whatever ranges -- and achieve the hits you need, taking the least time to do so.

And so anyone who's telling you they don't use sights is probably misrepresenting things and anyone who tells you they always see the sights clearly on target would be so as well (unless they are slow as molasses).

 

[LiveLife]

We fight like we train. When things go wrong unexpectedly, we all tend to default to our fundamentals of training.

Having shot USPSA matches, "Front sight flash!" was the mantra we all lived by for COM/head shot double taps.

But when I took a defensive training class given by the range officer who taught local police and sheriff SWAT teams (he also ran USPSA matches), things changed. He would set the range training session with the lights turned down so sights were not visible and would even throw a little smoke to obscure the night sights (He did this for his SWAT classes). His SWAT students and us civilians (most of us were USPSA shooters) learned quickly that there are times when sights are not usable. Most of us could not see our sights to engage the targets effectively.

He said we must train so we can hit our targets at threat distance with or without the use of our front sights. He did not want us to shift our focus from the targets. He said no matter what, our eyes were to track the targets and we must learn to hit the targets, even without using the sights we have become so dependent on.

Then he taught us the virtues of point shooting. We started at 3 yards with eyes closed and moved to 5-7 yards using quick draw and two handed stance with eyes closed. Pass criteria was shooting 6 inch shot groups at 6 circles at 7 yards with the instructor calling out "Top right, Bottom left" etc. while having to redraw and "point" each time with eyes closed.

Once the class got comfortable enough, he would have us engage a USPSA type stage with multiple targets set at 5-7 yards without using the sights. Since most of us had Glocks, he made us remove the front sights and run the stage. Contrary to our anxiety, we were surprised that our double taps weren't as bad as we anticipated. And he suggested we practice until we were proficient point shooting at 7 yards.

When we shared our training experience with my regular USPSA club, they saw the value of point shooting practice and we set up a practice stage with targets at 5-7 yards. Some were not comfortable shooting without using the front sight flash but admitted the practical application for defensive shooting when sights could not be used. Most shooters quickly reached the proficiency level where they were able to hit COM without using sights. Being able to call the shots took more practice.

I consider this version of "point shooting" another skill set to practice like weak hand shooting and when I teach someone to shoot, I always introduce them to the same point shooting training techniques and drills. When they are able to hit multiple paper plates at 7 yards with their eyes closed, they are much more confident about their defensive shooting skills.

As Sam1911 posted, point shooting requires deliberate training and practice drills to reach level of mastery. Point shooting is part of my regular range drill like weak hand shooting and having to rack the slide with one hand.

 

[MarshallDodge]

There is a story of a FBI agent and a perp that empty their guns at each other inside of an elevator. Neither one of them used their sights and neither one made hits.

I believe everyone needs to learn aimed fire before point shooting. I took a two day class last year from a well known instructor that had a drill where we covered the sights with masking tape. He had us shoot from 3-7 yards and showed us how it is possible but those that struggled with sighted fire at those distances still struggled with tape over the sights.

If the threat is within a couple yards, I could see where unsighted fire would be helpful but where is the muzzle of the gun after the first shot? How do you know when to take the next shot when you are recovering from recoil? I use the front sight as an indicator of where my muzzle is. Using the rear sight as a peephole, as soon as the front sight comes into view, I squeeze the next shot off.

 

[LiveLife]

where is the muzzle of the gun after the first shot? How do you know when to take the next shot when you are recovering from recoil?

As already posted, utilizing point shooting as a viable defensive technique should be done only after reaching a certain level of proficiency or mastery.

Knowing where the muzzle is and knowing how to take the next shot after recovering from recoil takes practice much like shooting double taps.

One exercise I do with more advanced shooters is have them face the target and focus on a plain copy paper on cardboard set at 5 yards. Without shifting their focus, I have them make bullet holes "appear" where their focus is on paper. Once they are proficient, I have them make bullet holes "appear" at different parts of the paper. It is an interesting drill I do from time to time. But with practice, things are possible.

 

[herrwalther]

Watch a group of people proficiently trained in room clearing. These can be military, Police SWAT, and a host of other alphabet agencies. You will see that they use a mixture of point shooting and aiming down the sights. Depending on if your rifle has a magnified optic or not. Using iron sights with room clearing is entirely impractical. This is why most of our military transitioned to using red dot optics. They are faster to acquire for the eye, and they don't require a consistent cheek weld for fast shots. Lights and lasers in a dark environment will also help draw your eye to your muzzle orientation without using sights.

The Army practices what are called "Ready, Up" drills. This is often the first step to a gun fighting course. It involves bringing a rifle up to the eye, taking the weapon off safe, firing 2 rounds (dry fire at first), weapon back on safe, and back to low ready as fast as possible. More advanced drills require the shooter to be facing up to 180 degrees away from the target for the drill, forcing the shooter to turn. Even with turning, you can increase your speed very quickly in a short course. Eventually it moves on to live fire at distances ranging from 1 yard to 20 yards.

 

[Fiv3r]

I could see where point shooting would be a game changer if practiced in certain situations. I mean, taking your time and getting a clear accurate shot is ideal, but having the skill to clear leather and hit a pie plate at 5 yards from the hip might be handy too.

I generally don't practice point shooting like the old FBI stance. My target practice is about 85% aimed fire so that I work on good mechanics and have quantifiable performance reviews of my shooting.

The other 15% is close range rapid fire at a simulated bad breath range. Drawing my gun and positioning my body as to simulate breaking an advancing attacker. Mentally working on keeping my body turned, my draw smooth and unobstructed, and protecting my vitals as i rapidly empty my gun into the very close "advancing" target.

My theory is that I will probably encounter one of two likely scenarios. One being that I am threatened, so that I make a hasty retreat. If the retreat results in being pursued, then a posted up defensive position with an aimed weapon would either hopefully dissuade or give me a clear line of sight.
The other, and probably most likely, would be an attempted smash and grab. An ambush where I am physically grabbed or rapidly advanced upon would probably give me little time to do much aiming beyond protecting my vitals and emptying my gun into the target.

I really don't think that there would be much I could do if someone wants to get the drop on me AND shoot at me. At that point, I'm just going to have to hope they are a terrible shot and I can get my gun on target before they kill me. One thing is for certain, I will be MOVING.

 

[hso]

Point shooting is not about shooting from the hip as envisioned in movies.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

But actually if you have to shoot someone who is already shooting at you or is about to squeeze one off, there is no way you can shoot as fast as just clearing the holster and firing from the hip, like the gunfighters or even the cowboy single action shooters do now.

A wise man once said, "You can't miss fast enough to win."

 

[Deaf Smith]

George,

Jim Cirillo said he saw his sights many times in shootouts.

Clint Smith, Massad Ayoob, Tom Givens, and other trainers have plenty of examples where their students have used their sights successfully.

http://www.attackproof.com/volume-11-GUNFIGHTS.html gives alot of info on this very subject.


Yes you can 'point' and shoot at close range but to give a blanket statement saying one cannot use there sights at close range is just showing one's ignorance on the subject.

Deaf

 

[JO JO]

I think distance to target comes into play for me if the target is with in 10 foot or so I
would fire from hip there is no way I would extend /project my weapon out that close to target.
I feel extending out at a close distance will result in a wrestling match or worse, years ago part of my qualification course did include 2 rounds from hip at 3 yards it was thought
at that time to keep your weapon close to your body at close quarters, keeping reaction
hand free. Than at 7 yards and out we used sights.

 

[Hangingrock]

Is this a theoretical discussion among those respondents that have never been in a gunfight or is it a discussion among those respondents that have been in a gunfight. Just asking???????????

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

The reaction cycle was described by Col. Boyd as Observation, Orientation, Decision, Action (OODA). The faster you can cycle through that process, the better your outcomes are likely to be. Yet for some reason in training, everyone likes to focus on the part of that cycle that has the least potential for improvement - action.

Let's say you have a glacially slow draw and it takes you 3 seconds to fire a shot. Now you go to Jelly Bryce levels of skill and you can draw and fire in 0.5 seconds. With massive expense in time and money, you managed to reach an elite level and shaved 2.5 seconds off your cycle time. However, you could probably gain more than 2.5 seconds from the OOD part of the cycle just by learning not to walk around staring at your smart phone in public.

All the focus on "fast draw" has you expending a lot of effort to make minimal gains.

And of course, aimed fire or dry fire using the sights will teach you the proper muscle memory and body index to point shoot if necessary. The inverse is not true though - when you train point shooting you are ingraining a habit not to use sights and not learning how to use a flash sight picture to make good hits - and I'd suggest that the closer someone is, the more important it is your first hit ends the fight quickly if you don't want to be shot. Putting hits in the -0 torso zone of an IDPA target will not necessarily end a real fight as fast as you might wish.

 

[Tirod]

The one thing I've taken away from the discussion on Point Shooting vs sighted is that the extended practice gets the gun aligned where the sights would much more likely be usable.

As illustrated, two shooters in an elevator missing each other repeatedly just means neither was holding the gun to hit where they were looking.

Apparently the extensive practice needed is testimony to the fact the average shooter can't just point and shoot - which nobody is claiming. It's one of those things that a lot of new shooters think is easy, but they never attempt it to discover the reality.

No doubt that waving a gun around frantically at a moving target and snatching the trigger has something to do with the inaccuracy. This is where the concept of "Smooth is Fast" comes in. You can be measurably slower but increase your accuracy by near exponential levels. As in that elevator illustration - only one shooter had to slow down and get off one good shot.

Not to pick on the cops, but the hit ratio for the number of rounds fired in some jurisdictions isn't that good. We had a local shooting on a Valentines Day in the past, felon with gun was spotted and he'd decided jail was not an option. He didn't hit anybody, and the cops never hit him with handguns - it took an officer with a M16 to knock him down past 21 feet.

One well aimed shot out of the nearly three dozen fired by LEO's. Just another anecdote, but it does illustrate that if someone is going to depend on quick shooting it's going to take a lot of practice. Once a month cycling ammo out of your carry magazine at a paper target won't do the job. A range that allows draw from a holster and a live gun at all times will be one of those items that many find unavailable.

As for the number who have actually been in a shooting? I've read statistics that fewer than 5% of LEO"s ever fire their weapon in self defense. In the military only 10% are in combat arms with that as part of their primary duties - the other 90% are support in defended non combat zones. Firing their weapons in self defense is rare, even in a combat zone. There simply aren't that many getting into gunfights - if there were we wouldn't be discussing it much, we'd be too busy doing it.

The survivors would be talking about it cleaning their guns or being on overwatch. . . .

 

[LiveLife]

when you train point shooting you are ingraining a habit not to use sights and not learning how to use a flash sight picture to make good hits

The one thing I've taken away from the discussion on Point Shooting vs sighted is that the extended practice gets the gun aligned where the sights would much more likely be usable.

Yes to both comments. The version of point shooting I illustrated on post #13 uses the same two handed grip and isosceles stance I use for range practice/match shooting. It's the same grip/stance I have used for decades and my body has enough muscle memory to assume that position from fast draw pretty consistently. Chances are, under stressful defensive shooting situations, my body will default to this grip/stance.

For me, this version of point shooting does not force my body to use a different technique (like shooting from the hip) but under stress of an attack, the same exact grip/stance I have used for decades just without the use of sights. What my defensive shooting instructor illustrated by lowering the range lights was that under stressful low light situations, it will take greater effort to focus on the sights (that you really can't see) but rather shift that focus to the targets and train to consistently hit the targets. Besides, my guess is that most defensive shooting situations will likely occur in low light conditions anyways.

And to those who think they are practiced enough to hit COM under stressful and low light conditions, try this test on your next range trip. Set your usual target at 5-7 yards and close your eyes. Draw your pistol and shoot COM with your eyes closed. Many of you will be surprised at where the bullet hole actually ends up at. It will often be lower than COM. I have taught this version of point shooting to many people and most will shoot lower than COM or towards the bottom of the paper or even the floor/ground. I have shot with LEOs on several occasions (one of the ranges I shot at was used for LEO training and my wife's cousins are PD Sgt and SD deputy) and many LEOs shot the floor/ground at 5-7 yards when they closed their eyes. Yes, they sure did appreciate the point shooting training and most were able to hit COM with their eyes closed with a little training.

It is good to know what your body will ACTUALLY do instead of assuming what it will do. To me, point shooting drills enhance my regular range practice as an extension to my regular shooting. And instead of shooting at COM repeatedly, I tape up 4-6 copy paper targets on cardboard and point shoot at different targets so my body must draw and aim at different target each time I point shoot.