THEN and NOW

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BOOM-BOOM

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How weapons today compare to the guns of the wild west.

Would the 357mag be a superior handgun against the 44 or 45 colts of that time.

How about our pistol calibers. 40S&W or 45acp. how would they stand up to the revolvers then.....
 
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Would the 357mag be a superior handgun against the 44 or 45 colts of that time.
Yep.
How about our pistol calibers. 40acp or 45acp. how would they stand up to the revolvers then.....
45 ACP and the 45 Colt are pretty much identical. 40 ACP doesn't exist, but presuming you mean .40 S&W, there were calibers that would have been competitive.

Moving this to Handguns, General Discussion.
 
presuming you mean .40 S&W, there were calibers that would have been competitive.
the comparable old west calibre would have been the 38-40...yeah i thought it would be a .38, but it isn't. it's a .401 bullet powered by 40 grains of black powder.

the old .32-20 would be comparable to the .30 Carbine or more modern .327 Mag

what i always found interesting was that until the introduction of the .357Mag, the most powerful handgun round was the muzzle loading blackpowder .44 Walker
 
1870s Black Powder Loadings for .45 Long Colt were 250 + or - grain Bullet and + or - around 1000 fps...probably 7-1/2 inch Barrel.


.45 ACP was and remains the ballistic equivelent of the Black Powder .44 Russian Cartridge, not .45 Lomg Colt.


1898-1899 Loadings of .38 Special when Standard Loadings were in BP, were 158 Grn Bullet, 950 fps...6 inch Barrel.
 
How weapons today compare to the guns of the wild west.

On the whole, both the Wild West guns and today's service-caliber guns are pretty equally effective in most respects, I think, as their intended uses are more or less the same. Today's guns are more efficient in some ways, such as barrel length, weight, capacity in some cases (often using smaller cartridges because of smokeless powder), and rate of fire, but these things vary by the individual case and should be obvious enough.

Also, for self-defense use today's JHP bullets are thought to offer increased effectiveness, all else being equal, but you have to decide for yourself how much (and the solid and often quite hard lead bullets they used back then have their own advantages).

Would the 357mag be a superior handgun against the 44 or 45 colts of that time.

Not necessarily more than it is superior to today's .45 ACP handguns, if it is at all. It depends on usage, as there are certainly some .357 Magnum loads that are more effective against larger creatures, but against humans, that's a whole other discussion. In terms of raw energy, it is certainly superior, that's true.

How about our pistol calibers. 40acp or 45acp. how would they stand up to the revolvers then.....

They would have more or less the same ballistic performance if they all used the same type of bullet. As 9mmepiphany pointed out, .38-40 WCF was the close equivalent of today's .40 S&W, although it's bottlenecked like .357 SIG, and the same pretty much goes for .45 Colt and .45 ACP.

Note that I've been referring to the later, more familiar Wild West era. Earlier cap & ball revolvers were generally less powerful, closer in performance to smaller modern calibers such as .38 Special, .380 ACP, or even smaller. The bullets used--sometimes literally lead balls--were also less effective than today's bullets, but they were still lethal.

what i always found interesting was that until the introduction of the .357Mag, the most powerful handgun round was the muzzle loading blackpowder .44 Walker

It depended on how you loaded it, I suppose, but if you wanted your Walker to last a fair amount of time, then you'd probably be hard-pressed to load it hotter, in terms of external ballistics, than .45 Colt.

1870s Black Powder Loadings for .45 Long Colt were 250 + or - grain Bullet and + or - around 1000 fps...probably 7-1/2 inch Barrel.

With a full 40 grains of black powder, you might be able to get 1000 fps with that Cavalry barrel length on a Single Action Army, but most people used shorter barrel lengths such as 4¾" (Gunfighter) or 5½" (Artillery), which of course reduced velocity somewhat. It was also common to use lighter charges of black powder, such as 35 grains.

.45 ACP was and remains the ballistic equivelent of the Black Powder .44 Russian Cartridge, not .45 Lomg Colt.

It's a bit hotter than .44 Russian. Let's just say that .45 ACP is somewhere between .44 Russian and .45 Colt, although to be fair, most factory .45 Colt loads weren't as hot as the one you described (which was a physically maxed-out load) and .45 ACP (and .40 S&W for that matter, albeit with smaller, faster bullets) can potentially be loaded very nearly as hot as the hottest .45 Colt black powder load (modern smokeless .45 Colt loads designed specifically for stronger revolvers than the SAA are a different story altogether).

1898-1899 Loadings of .38 Special when Standard Loadings were in BP, were 158 Grn Bullet, 950 fps...6 inch Barrel.

Ironically, despite the far superior energy density of smokeless powder, black powder loads in certain calibers could often be hotter because of how they burn and the pressure curve that results, albeit with a much larger charge of black powder. .45 Colt appears to have the same issue with standard pressure loads, unless it is very carefully loaded.
 
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Could you imagine a Glock 20, 10mm with 15+1 capacity? This would be my choice to go back in time.
 
Hi Manco,


I enjoyed your detailed mentions there...nice Post.

In BP, those velocities are acheived with something like 12,000 PSI I think too.


My 3 inch Model 10 with 3F BP and 158 Grn RNL was clocking on par with brand new off the shelf 158 Grn Ammo. So even in shorter Barrels it seems to do quite well.

I will head to the Range again sometime and see what I get with a Snubby and a 6 inch Barrel Model also.



gbran,


But buying Ammo would be a problem..!
 
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Since nobody else has mentioned this yet and I forgot to, one big advantage of today's firearms and ammo is that they generate a lot less smoke, for obvious reasons. Or maybe it's actually a disadvantage because we don't get that nice smokescreen concealment effect that might allow for more maneuvering for cover or better firing positions--you decide. If you want to get an idea of how much smoke I'm talking about, think of a Western movie that has the most ridiculous amount of gun smoke that you ever saw, and then realize that it's probably not exaggerated, and that they were just using fully loaded blanks for realism (everything else in the vast majority of such movies is probably downright unrealistic, practically guaranteed).

In BP, those velocities are acheived with something like 12,000 PSI I think too.

I'm neither a reloader nor am I particularly knowledgeable about "internal" ballistics so I'm kind of sticking my neck out here, but the operating pressures listed by SAAMI are maximum peak pressures and do not tell the whole story about how a particular cartridge will perform. Keeping things as basic as I can, the typical, simple loads of smokeless powder used in ammunition originally designed for BP burn comparatively fast, hit the peak pressure very quickly (where it has to stop), and are soon spent thereafter which causes pressure and therefore acceleration of the bullet to rapidly drop, while BP loads build the pressure more gradually toward the peak and drop more slowly, overall accelerating the bullet more over the whole time it's burning. So as long as your barrel is long enough, BP loads will tend to be more powerful than smokeless loads in old BP calibers, ironic as this may seem.

If it wasn't clear from the above, in order to limit the maximum pressure generated by smokeless powder, you have to use less powder than you'd like--a tiny amount that rattles around in the cartridge case--as opposed to BP, which you can generally pack in tightly until the case is full because of its flatter pressure curve. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that loose powder tends to burn all at once, making the pressure spike even sharper than it would be just for reasons of chemistry, further reducing the maximum possible charge of smokeless powder. BP loads generally have more energy because if you think about it, a flatter curve with the same peak will have more area underneath it in a graph, and this area mathematically represents the amount of energy that is usable. Even further compounding the issue is that the metallurgy of old firearms may not be able to withstand the sharp pressure spike of smokeless powder even if the same maximum pressure is reached. For this reason, many vintage firearms should use BP loads exclusively, and smokeless loads that are specifically intended for use in similar firearms (which some would recommend against on principle) cannot safely reach the same maximum pressure as BP loads, making them even weaker.

While the problems are probably not quite as severe as I'm making them sound, this is basically why old BP loads often seem so hot in comparison to their smokeless counterparts. Obviously all of this can be worked around by building stronger handguns, using higher operating pressures, and strange though it may seem, smaller cartridge cases, all of which are more suitable for use with smokeless powder (of which there are many varieties, by the way). You could also overcome the limitations by using a "progressive" load of smokeless powder, but that's more complex a process than manufacturers would bother with for old BP calibers (or personal firearms, period), and like BP may be more sensitive to barrel length. Given the latter and the popularity of snubby .38 Special revolvers, it is best to simply accept the drop in performance and get some of it back through +P ammo (or in this case far exceed it with .357 Magnum ammo).

My 3 inch Model 10 with 3F BP and 158 Grn RNL was clocking on par with brand new off the shelf 158 Grn Ammo. So even in shorter Barrels it seems to do quite well.

I will head to the Range again sometime and see what I get with a Snubby and a 6 inch Barrel Model also.

That would certainly be interesting, although the theory that I described above seems to apply more to .45 Colt than .38 Special for some reason. Also keep in mind that it is largely mitigated in guns with somewhat short barrels, which penalize smokeless powder less because it burns so fast (or may even give it an advantage over BP if the barrel is short enough).
 
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Here is the Link to my Range Report a few months ago for Chronographing .38 Special in BP and '777' in two different Revolvers.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=486044

The BP and '777' rounds definitely put an instant smile on one's face...the report and recoil are very different than smokeless and seem 'deeper'.

In a light breeze one hardly notices any smoke.

But if it were a cold still day, in Alaska or Siberia, I bet that smoke would linger at chest level for hours..!

Car exhaust does...yuck...


There are so many Smokeless propellents to choose from for loading Cartridges taylored to the details of the Arm and to the Bullet one intends and the fps one wants ( well, within reason anyway)...and so far, for me, I do not have a handle on those endless factors and finesses, but I have begun with and will stay a while with BP and '777' initially for .38 Special, thence to .38 S&W and .45 Long Colt, before moving on to some Smokeless experiments/trials.
 
Modern smokeless double action revolvers would have been superior in many respects, from power to size to reliability. Not to mention speed of reloading. Semis would have been unknown in the 1870's of course. But how much of a tactical advantage this would give, as opposed to a psychological one, is questionable. Any period long gun, including a front stuffer, would be more than a match for a modern handgun. So old Zeke would just shoot you with his rifle musket or scattergun and take your fancy iron ;-)
 
the firearms themselves are much more reliable as well. In addition to the more powerful, easier loaded, smokeless ammo, the mechanicals are less likely to fail.

As are the cartridges
 
Didn't the old primers contain fulminate of mercury? IIRC, they were highly corrosive. Also, black powder is very dirty and fouls barrels and moving parts quickly.
 
.45 ACP was and remains the ballistic equivelent of the Black Powder .44 Russian Cartridge, not .45 Lomg Colt.

Strange comparison.
I always figured that the .45 ACP was meant to be the smokeless powder, automatic pistol equivalent of the .45 Government; the cartridge made to shoot in the .45 S&W Schofield and .45 Colt SAA. It is also darned close to the .45 1909 round; which looks like a .45 Colt with larger rim for simultaneous extraction from the New Service Colt. The 1909 was an early smokeless powder round and is not as powerful as a full-house BP 1873.
 
Modern smokeless double action revolvers would have been superior in many respects, from power to size to reliability. Not to mention speed of reloading.

Earlier I was broadly referring to common self-defense weapons, but there are exceptions on both sides. Obviously there are much more powerful revolvers available today, but they're not as common as more comparable revolvers chambered in .38 Special (or .357 Magnum using .38 cartridges), for example.

And while modern handguns are generally faster to reload, there were some guns in the Wild West that were about as fast or even faster, such as the Remington 1858 New Model Army, which could quickly and easily be reloaded with a preloaded cap & ball cylinder (far more reliably than you could with a Colt Army Model or Single Action Army, I think), and the Smith & Wesson No. 3 (Schofield Revolver), which was a top-break revolver. There were also double-action revolvers such as the Colt Lightning, although they aren't as robust and reliable as today's double-action revolvers.

Semis would have been unknown in the 1870's of course. But how much of a tactical advantage this would give, as opposed to a psychological one, is questionable.

Well, most semiautos have higher capacity, which is obviously favored today. I doubt that the advantage of having more rounds available is merely psychological, although how much of an advantage it gives tactically depends on the scenario. The bottom line: I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it. By the way, a number of famous gunfighters, such as Wild Bill Hickok, carried a second loaded revolver, so obviously they valued quick reloads as well as having more rounds available for immediate use.

Any period long gun, including a front stuffer, would be more than a match for a modern handgun.

Oh, I don't know about that. :scrutiny: Most muskets weren't loaded with more than 60 grains of BP, which in a musket isn't quite going to match decent .44 Magnum loads, or ironically modern smokeless .45 Colt+P loads, for that matter. Many lever-action rifles shot pistol cartridges, such as .44-40 WCF, as well, and they can't match a .44 Magnum revolver, either. Obviously there were very large rifle calibers back then, such as the .45-70 Government, but even then the modern .500 S&W Magnum can match or even exceed its performance in a revolver.

Didn't the old primers contain fulminate of mercury? IIRC, they were highly corrosive. Also, black powder is very dirty and fouls barrels and moving parts quickly.

The mercury fulminate they contained was a greater threat to the brass, once fired, making it brittle if the combustion products weren't washed off quickly. Other components such as potassium chlorate contributed combustion products that were corrosive to guns themselves. The latter was commonly used in military cartridges because of its long-term stability. These days most civilian ammo uses lead styphnate, which is non-corrosive albeit somewhat toxic, as we all know.
 
How weapons today compare to the guns of the wild west.

Would the 357mag be a superior handgun against the 44 or 45 colts of that time.

How about our pistol calibers. 40S&W or 45acp. how would they stand up to the revolvers then.....

I've thought about the same thing and have done a lot of reading/research on the guns and cartridges of the old west. The guns and cartridges can hold there own pretty darn well to the modern day equivilants. The ol' .38 WCF (.38-40) is a dead ringer for the modern day .40S&W. Each fire a 180gr bullet at about 950fps. I find it rather interesting that after 1900 the .38-40 became rather popular with some of the the Texas Rangers. It was said to shoot hard and flat and allowed faster follow up shots than did the .45 Colt.

The .45 S&W Schofield will pretty much match the .45ACP. The U.S. Army issued the shorter .45 S&W round even though they issued the Colt .45 SAA. The standard load for the .45 S&W was a 230gr bullet over 28gr of black powder. On a interesting note before the Army would adopt the now famous 1911 they requested that the .45ACP be modified so that it fired the now standard weigh t230gr bullet instead of the 200gr bullet that was initially intended for it. This just so happens to be the standard bullet weight of the .45 S&W. The performance of the two are virtually identical.

The .44 Russian and the newer .44SPL are ballistic twins as loaded by the factories. S&W didn't improve upon the Russian's ballitics which mystifies a lot of us because they made the case longer which left more room for powder/performance. As loaded by the factories each will launch a 246gr RN bullet to 750fps. Obviously the .44SPL has the advantage if one reloads.

As to accuracy as a whole modern day guns will be more accurate on average. However the old guns were no slouches either. One of the prefered target guns of the period IIRC was the S&W #3 American chambered in .44 Russian. A good shooter could and did put 5 rounds into 2.5" at 50yd, that is darn good accuracy even by todays standards. However it is fairly common knowledge that S&W had tighter tolerances than did Colt. Colt is pretty infamous for having grossly undersized chamber throats and oversize bores or vice versa.

The .38SPL when loaded with a 200gr bullet for all intents and purposes is the ballistic twin to the .41 Long Colt. Colt stated that the .41LC would launch it's 200gr bullet to 800fps. I find this claim to be rather optimistic. From all of my research that I've done on this cartridge I've found it was probably closer to 750fps. By contrast when the 200gr loading was popular in the .38 SPL back in the day it could achive anywhere from 730fps -770fps. The handloader can actually safely exceed this performance and coax about 850fps out of the grand ol' .38 SPL with the 200gr bullet. Hope this is of some help.
 
The mercury fulminate they contained was a greater threat to the brass, once fired, making it brittle if the combustion products weren't washed off quickly. Other components such as potassium chlorate contributed combustion products that were corrosive to guns themselves. The latter was commonly used in military cartridges because of its long-term stability. These days most civilian ammo uses lead styphnate, which is non-corrosive albeit somewhat toxic, as we all know

These primers did not bother the brass when used in conjunction with black powder. It was when the newer smokeless powder and these primers were used that caused brass to become brittle. This was first noticed when Winchester unvield the then new speed demon the .30WCF ala 30-30. It was brought to the fore front again with the release of the .32 Winchester special. The .32 Winchester Special was loaded by the factory with smokeless powder but was also able to be reloaded with black powder, as black powder was still abundant and cheaper to boot. This evident as the early rifles and carbines were sold with two rear sights, one for smokless powder and another graduated for black powder. It is also said that Winchester used the slower and shallower rifling twist (1-16") in the .32 as it was a compromise for use of both smokeless and black powder in the same rifle.
 
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IMHO, the main advantage a modern revolver would have over the old guns would be a usable double action. While there were DA revolvers in the Old West, the poor quality of the double action made them effective only at short range. An S&W Model 19 or 686 would be far superior in any contest for speed.

Of course, a high capacity auto pistol would be effective, probably as good for practical accuracy as anything in the old days, and with a lot more firepower.

But don't forget what Ed McGivern once said when asked if he could outshoot the old gunmen. His reply was that he might have the technical ability, but that those men were killers, willing to gun down anyone who stood in their way, and he was not. I think most of us here are civilized enough that we would hesitate at least a bit before killing a man; those old time gunfighters would have no hesitation and a modern shooter would be dead. Killing is not really a matter of the weapon - it is a matter of mindset. The man with the mind of a killer is dangerous, no matter the kind or quality or age of his weapon.

Jim
 
Far as I know, with the old 'Corrosive' Primers, if the Bore of the Arm were not fairly promptly cleaned of chemical residu after shooting, whether having been firing Black Powder or Smokeless, the Chemical residu - probably from absorbing moisture from ambient Humidity and reacting - from the Primers would tend to start corroding the Steel.

Black Powder residu itself, I believe attracts ambient moisture/humidity from the Atmosphere, and in it's own way, also then, begins rusting whatever Steel surfaces it is in or on.



Here are some Targets from an 1880s 200 Yard Rifle Match -


http://www.pbase.com/halp/so__you_think_you_can_shoot_
 
But don't forget what Ed McGivern once said when asked if he could outshoot the old gunmen. His reply was that he might have the technical ability, but that those men were killers, willing to gun down anyone who stood in their way, and he was not. I think most of us here are civilized enough that we would hesitate at least a bit before killing a man; those old time gunfighters would have no hesitation and a modern shooter would be dead. Killing is not really a matter of the weapon - it is a matter of mindset. The man with the mind of a killer is dangerous, no matter the kind or quality or age of his weapon.

There is truth in what you and Ed McGivern are saying, however I think the era has less to do with whether one is a killer than the individual differences between people. Certainly there is no shortage of people today who wouldn't hesitate to kill for pocket change if they thought they could get away with it, and while people back in the Wild West days were undoubtedly more familiar with firearms overall, I bet that the "average" person back then was no more of a killer than the "average" person of today. The former might have had more of a struggle to survive in certain ways, making them tougher, but don't estimate the combined effect that inexplicable stress, sheer greed for material wealth, and the boredom of modern convenience can have on the latter. :rolleyes:
 
From all I've read, the average gun owner today is far more knowledgeable about firearms than even expert gunmen of the old west. Certainly we've fired more rounds. Powder and ball, let alone cartridges and the firearms to shoot them, were expensive. Not to be used excessively. Practice wasn't something most people did.

That said, if dealing with a real killer-old or new--they won't make it a fair fight. They'd bushwhack you just like they do now.
 
Who said anything about choosing between a 357 and a 45???

This post started out with a simple question... And that was how does todays handguns compare fwith those of the old west.

Are our smokeless cartridges more powerful then the black powder ones.

I could be wrong but I think the two main cartridges back then were the 44 and the 45 colts.

I asked would the 357 mag be superior to the 44&45's of that time..
Which really required a simple yes or no answer.

capacity has nothing to do with it. Pistol capacity has nothing to do with it...

Thank you LARRY ASHCRAFT for your response...You hit the nail on the head
 
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