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There's no reason for this to EVER happen.

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by JohnKSa, Dec 9, 2020.

  1. Elkins45

    Elkins45 Member

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    Better hope they don’t notice the smoking hole in your pants. Can’t blame that on Taco Bell.

    As would the model of the holster. I won’t hazard a guess as to the maker of the gun but I do have a pretty good idea of the firing mechanism it probably uses :) And I would also guess the offending holster is as floppy as...well, something really floppy.
     
  2. Obturation
    • Contributing Member

    Obturation Contributing Member

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    99% agree. My best holster is a kydex IWB thing that was moulded directly from my own gun by black rhino, it is a good sturdy holster with good retention and 2 belt hook (if that's what the right term is). My need for adjustment on that one is minimal but if I go from sitting to standing I'll have to nudge the holster back into position sometimes. I think this has to do with body shape too. I'm 6'1" & 180# but lean and no butt meat to speak of, no matter how tight I make my belt things move a bit sometimes and I do need to move them back for comfort and concealment . kydex (even textured) is slippery and I've tried a little mole skin on the side toward my body to help hold things from slipping , with minimal success . I do use a couple hybrid type holsters (kydex on leather- king tuk / cross breed), but find they move more than kydex. I have tried a full leather (not horsehide ) holster for IWB use but found reholstering a challenge , likely other designs may work better.

    My most fidgety holsters are shoulder holsters, the belt loops move and pull but are generally the most comfortable but not the quickest or most concealable - they're a compromise .

    I do use a very ridged belt , primarily because all "belt guns" I carry are heavy.

    This topic will always exist and I've never found any system that I'd consider perfect. Like most guys, I'm still looking for what may be best. Needless to say I do some adjusting .
    -sorry for the long response .
     
  3. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Moderator Staff Member

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    Well, there is a practical limit of what can be hung off a belt and expected to stay in position.

    I had to run some errands today after making the post you quoted and was out of the house with my carry rig. I tried to pay attention to see if I was having to adjust things. As far as I can tell, I never had to adjust it at all. That included getting in and out of the car 4 times and walking around at different locations for a total of maybe 45 minutes.

    I can see that if I were trying to carry something that weighed 3-4lbs loaded instead of a firearm like my carry gun that weighs under a pound unloaded, occasional adjustments would likely be required.
     
  4. Waveski

    Waveski Member

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    a) Not a very responsible way to deal with such a situation
    b) What possible good is served by labeling a group of bystanders whatever-***** ?

    For me : da mechanism , Bianchi IWB w/ thumb break , so stable and secure I forget it's there , even when active.

    Regarding "To what end?" - One can be benefit by learning from the mistakes of others.

    Edit : Interesting that the program edited my derogatory slang word that was allowed to stand in print in the quote I posted...?
     
  5. HB

    HB Member

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    This happens all the time. Police officers aren’t immune either. The majority of people are idiots it seems.
     
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  6. CDW4ME

    CDW4ME Member

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    Preventing an incident like in the OP: rigid holster on a decent belt and in this example a pistol with more than one safety:
    concealed2.jpg
     
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  7. FFGColorado

    FFGColorado Member

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    Picking nits here but if the gun goes off w/o pulling the trigger..I'd call that an accidental' discharge..if the trigger is squeezed unintentionally, to ME, that's a negligent discharge. In a video I just saw with a Sig bolt, )Cross?) rifle..trigger problems and when the guy raised to bolt to open the chamber, the gun fired..THAT's 'accidental', IMHO..no negligence involved(except maybe the designer or the person that assembled the rifle)...
     
  8. buck460XVR

    buck460XVR Member

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    In the linked article, there is no statement of the poor guys finger ever touching the trigger. There's no statement of the police even seeing a gun. Only a guy adjusting his pants and supposedly a gun goes off. We don't what kind of gun, nor do we know how the guy was carrying, yet folks are making assumptions that A.) the gun is somehow unsafe to carry, B.) somehow how the guy was carrying was sub-standard and C.) the guy must be a dumb&*% because he must have had an assumed ND.

    In Hunter Safety we teach the fourth rule of gun safety is "Always be sure of your target and what is beyond." Taking a shot without doing this is what I call a ND, even tho it is intentional. We read all the time about kids finding loaded guns and shooting their friends by accident. While there is negligence involved, it this too a ND? We could pick nits forever, but the only thing we really know from the information in the linked article is that the discharge was not intentional.......thus by all accounts of the definition....an accident.

    Am I giving the poor guy in the article a break? Yes, I am, because he is a fellow gun owner than made a mistake of some kind. Bashing him on public media is more anti-gun than anything in the linked article, yet folks here are bashing the article too. Sometimes we are our own worst enemy. Easy to claim he was carrying a cheap gun in a cheap holster or no holster at all, but we really don't know this. Easy to say the guy should have spent a few more bucks and got something better, but how do we know he could afford even one more dollar in times like these. Nope, just a slow day on a gun forum and a good day to chastise others I guess.
     
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  9. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

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    One suspects that if one can afford to shop at Neiman-Marcus (unless it's no longer considered an up-scale store?), one can afford a decent belt and holster.

    This is a common occurrence almost everywhere. Not everyone who decides to carry a loaded firearm gets on the internet, discovers THR and asks questions about how he/she should carry their firearm. Plus... TV and the movies. Mel Gibson in Lethal Weapon, stuffing his 92FS in the waistband of his Levi's. I've personally witnessed, or come on the scene soon afterward, this type of ND (usually in public restrooms or restaurants) at least five or six times over the past fifteen years or so.
     
  10. rdnktrkr

    rdnktrkr Member

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    A local BIG gun store offers gun safety courses on Saturdays and at least in my county our sheriff office offers gun safety courses, I know there is a lot of new gun owners that needs to take advantage of something like these. In GA open carry is legal but I believe that mall has a no firearms sign (I don't shop in malls). I wouldn't shop anywhere downtown without carrying if for nothing more than piece of mind. I see a lot of people that print or half cover locally and just ignore them and I try to separate myself from them and people that open carry due to the looks from others.
     
  11. mmb617

    mmb617 Member

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    I was a fan of the Sons of Anarchy show when it was on TV and I noticed that all those guys carried small of back without a holster, they just shoved the gun in their waistband. So now you're telling me that's not a good way to carry my gat? Who knew? Next thing I know you'll be telling me that holding the gun sideways isn't the best way for accuracy.
     
  12. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Moderator Staff Member

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    Well, let's break that down.

    If the gun went off without him ever touching the trigger then either the gun is unsafe and will fire without the trigger being pulled, or the way he was carrying allowed something to manipulate the trigger. If it was the gun that was unsafe, that might not be his fault, assuming that he didn't know that the gun would fire without the trigger being pulled. If he was carrying in a way that allowed something to manipulate the trigger then he was carrying in a substandard/unsafe manner.

    If he did touch the trigger unintentionally, then the way he was carrying was substandard because a properly carried gun should protect the trigger so it can't be manipulated unintentionally and/or he was being unsafe and intentionally put his finger on the trigger when he didn't intend to.

    There's a small chance that this was truly not his fault, that the gun malfunctioned unexpectedly and fired. However the police indicate that he was adjusting things when the gun went off suggesting that something got on the trigger somehow.
    That is absolutely ridiculous. Nobody here is suggesting that guns need to be restricted or banned, this is about how to make sure that we don't have the same thing happen to us and about trying to educate others so they can avoid the same mistakes this guy apparently made.

    The idea that we shouldn't say anything negative about someone because they're a "fellow gun owner" is pure nonsense. Some guy unintentionally shoots himself and his wife at church and we're supposed to defend him and pretend it's all ok? Absolutely NOT! Some guy fires a gun at a mall while adjusting his pants and then runs away and pointing out that he almost certainly did something very irresponsible is anti-gun? Ridiculous!
    The bottom line is that we have to be safe when we are carrying. It's a responsibility. Just like it's irresponsible to drive a car without brakes--EVEN if you can't afford to get them fixed, it's irresponsible to carry a gun in an unsafe manner or to carry an unsafe gun.
    This forum's stated goal is that it is "dedicated to the discussion and advancement of responsible firearms ownership." That includes pointing out irresponsible conduct and providing ways to avoid making the same mistakes.
     
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  13. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

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    After reading John's post, I realized I hadn't read this one through. All of the above. It's simply unacceptable that this happened. For whatever reason. Handguns just don't "go off" by themselves. Whatever caused the negligent discharge -- and it was NEGLIGENT -- is solely on the the guy who was carrying it.

    We can certainly make assumptions here. And one thing is for certain: yes, the guy is a dumb ***. This sort of thing should NEVER happen. We have to police our own ranks. Otherwise, our credibility is nil. And the other side wins.
     
  14. 1KPerDay

    1KPerDay Member

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    99.99% of the time it is user or equipment error. However, IMO there have been credible reports of SOME partially cocked striker fired designs causing an AD without the trigger being touched. It’s one of those things that “gun guys” don’t like to think about.
     
  15. D.B. Cooper

    D.B. Cooper Member

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    4. Carry a gun with an external, manual safety that must be deliberately disengaged prior to firing. And carry with the safety on. Or carry a DA revolver.
     
  16. D.B. Cooper

    D.B. Cooper Member

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    Yes, this is true. But when there is an accidental/negligent discharge, it's rarely a revolver or a firearm with an engaged, manual, external safety.

    It's kind of like dogs, really. Every day, millions of Americans walk their dogs without incident. But when a dog rips the face off a small child, it's always the pit bull.

    Glocks and pit bulls are the usual suspects for a good reason.
     
  17. JCooperfan1911

    JCooperfan1911 Member

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    I have heard it said that there should be a mandatory training class for all new gun owners.

    I do not agree, and doing so is an infringement on a persons 2nd amendment rights.

    it sounds like a great way to create a gun owner registry and could deny access to an arm by someone (such as a battered women) who is under threat from a previous lover etc. etc. Also many rural people already know perfect firearms handling from their upbringing and would not benefit, and would be one more bureaucratic hoop they (or anyone else) would be forced to go through before they could exercise their 2nd.

    it is true that Hollywood and electronic games teach many new gun owners some bad habits, but rarely is a new gun owner truly reckless or a danger to others from lack of training.
     
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  18. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm not in favor of giving the government more power over gun owners--to force them to get training for example. It would be easily abused and could be manipulated into a way to simply deny people the right to own guns by making the training too expensive or too difficult.

    That doesn't mean, however, that it is in the best interest of new gun owners, or in the interest of the gun community for new gun owners to forgo training. There are certainly benefits to good training--it just needs to be done voluntarily--just a normal part of taking personal responsibility.
    Based on a poll done here that garnered almost 600 responses, the single most common reason for an unintentional discharge was for the person to intentionally pull the trigger thinking that the gun was unloaded. In other words, the person intended for the action to be operated, they just didn't think the gun would fire because they thought it was unloaded. Pretty hard for a manual safety to stop a person from firing a gun if they go through all the motions to fire one thinking that nothing will happen because they believe it's unloaded.

    https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/how-did-your-unintentional-discharge-happen.114287/

    For whatever it's worth, I've seen one unintentional discharge in person. It was with a DA revolver fired with a long DA pull, not from a cocked hammer. I personally know another person who has had two. One with a DA/SA pistol that had an external manual safety and another with a rifle that had an external manual safety. What it boils down to is that unintentional discharges are almost inevitably the result of bad decisions on the part of the person handling the gun, and much less commonly due to the specific design of the firearm.

    The poll showed that about 66% of the time an unintentional discharge results from someone having their finger on the trigger when they shouldn't. Can a manual safety prevent unintentional discharges in cases like that? Well, if a person can't be bothered to follow one of the three cardinal rules of gun safety (keep your finger off the trigger if you don't intend to shoot), why should we expect them to use a manual safety properly? The manual safety argument has always struck me as contradictory. We can't expect people to do something as simple as keep their fingers out of the trigger guard, but don't worry, if we put a manual safety on the gun those same people can be expected to use it properly. Like saying the way to keep a person from forgetting to lock their door is by adding another lock on the door.

    That's not to say I believe manual safeties have no purpose or place. They do have uses--but they won't "cover" for people who don't follow the rules of gun safety.
     
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  19. GAF

    GAF Member

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    IMHO gun safety have everything to do the the individual handling the firearm and not whether firearm has a safety.
    Safety with firearms should be a state of mind, not something we strap with the firearm.
    No mechanical safety will save us from that person the OP is talking about.
     
  20. buck460XVR

    buck460XVR Member

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    I am not trying to justify the actions of the guy in the linked article. Again, I helped teach Hunter Safety for 20 years, so I do endorse responsible gun ownership. There is a big difference between the "pointing out irresponsible conduct and providing ways to avoid making the same mistakes" and some of the bashing here. The "do it the way I do" or "if he only would have had my gun" accompanied by posed pictures from so many that have never made a mistake in their life. This is no different than the oh so popular "dumb guy in the LGS" and "the stupid clerk at Walmart" threads that generally abound on this forum. Not any useful information, just an attempt to make some posters feel superior somehow by belittling others.....and yes, the belittling/condescending of fellow gun owners to others does nuttin' to display a positive image of gun owners. While your OP was a good example of trying to educate and inform, it soon took the turn down whining hill. Still is going downhill with the bashing and condescension now towards fellow forum members. Yep, just the slow time of year for gun forums.
     
  21. rust collector
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    rust collector Contributing Member

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    I, on the other hand, believe that keeping us aware of the risk of becoming complacent is one of many reasons a community like ours has value and relevance. Some of the news isn't welcome, but it reminds us that we don't live in a fantasy world where there are no consequences and we can hit reset when things go sour. I am a couple years shy of 40 years teaching hunter safety courses, and I have witnessed amazing lapses during field exercises, while hunting, and by very experienced shooters. One such experience two months ago shut down a local club range that had been open for more than 60 years.

    We live in an era in which we can select the news we get and disregard or ignore the news that doesn't fit our desire or expectation. IMO failure analysis is still essential to reducing the risk of bad outcomes, and we need to continually tune our ability to separate the beef from the byproduct. Yes, the dialog takes a few twists and turns, but it helps me resolve and take extra caution to do better. For that, I am thankful.
     
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  22. Palladan44

    Palladan44 Member

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    I really enjoy striker fired weapons like my Glock 19 or Kahr K9. A nice long deliberate trigger pull makes an AD/ND even harder to accomplish. Trigger control still paramount and still #1 line of Defense.
    Quality holsters whether paddle, leather IWB or OWB all have excellent coverage as to cover the trigger guard when holstered.
    Please dont call me complacent, but an AD is the last thing im worried about when my gun is holstered. Practicing good trigger control is important. This incident is rediculous.
     
  23. pharmer

    pharmer Member

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    #4:
    If you leave the house packing a firearm do not ++++ with it for any reason. If'n you need to "adjust" while out, you didn't start out "properly armed." Joe
     
  24. Zerodefect

    Zerodefect Member

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    Just get a real holster and belt. /thread. Why is it that so many owners can't figure this out?
     
  25. bearcreek

    bearcreek Member

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    Obviously your statement is true. That would be like me saying that cars that are parked are involved in crashes less than ones that are moving. If the safety is engaged, the gun won't fire, if it's working properly. Now, I have no idea if your statement is true if we remove the part about the safety being engaged. My experience as a concealed carry instructor has been that guns with manual safeties are hazardous in the hands of a novice and should only be carried after a person gains a good deal of experience and competence. Too easy to forget to engage or disengage the safety at the right times or to accidentally engage or disengage it. Also, see post #68.
     
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