THINK .38 SPECIAL (NOT .357)

[mcb]

So, maybe it's not true.

I believe it's true, I have seen evidence that supports my statements it in my own shooting and testing. I have talked to others that believe it and have also seen evidence in their own shooting and testing.

YMMV

 

[375supermag]

Hi...
I own at least seven .357Magnum revolvers and have never fired a .38Spl cartridge out of any of them. I do not find the recoil objectionable at all.
I have two .38Spl revolvers to shoot that cartridge.

I also have five .44Magnum revolvers and have never fired a .44Spl cartridge out of any of them. The recoil of .44Magnum cartridges doesn't bother me, either.
I have four .44Spl revolvers to shoot that cartridge.

All of these revolvers are shot almost every week along with other handguns chambered in all the popular (and some not so popular) calibers.

Learning to control recoil in a handgun is a matter of practice and experience. It does help to wear a shooting glove.

 

[UncleEd]

375supermag,

I suspect that you are damaging the nerves and bones in
your hand/hands and wrist/wrists with so much constant
Magnum shooting.

The deterioration is, of course, gradual, and you probably
are not even aware yet of the damage.

With so much Magnum shooting, I do hope you wear
double hearing protection indoors and outdoors at all
times.

 

[golden]

Uncle Ed,

We will have to agree to disagree again. I like the RUGER Security,Service and Speed Six line a great deal. To me, the full lugged GP-100 is too heavy and the triggers were better on the SIX'S. So when I see a Security or Speed Six chambered for .38 Special, I pass. Why buy a FERRARI with a 4 cylinder engine? The problem with the .357 magnum, is that it should be shot in a mid-size gun, not a J-frame which is HARD TO SHOOT EVEN WITH .38 SPECIAL +P.

I found the S&W model 19 to be frail and not up to regular use of .357 magnum. I have found no such problem with the larger and HEAVIER L-frame guns like my 581, 681 or 586. Still, they are like the GP-100, heavier than I want.
I found that the recoil of the 110 grain .357 load was not much, if any worse than the .38 Special +P with the 158 grain bullet and the .38 is less effective. So if I am going to carry a 2 pound gun, I would like the most effective load.

There are NOW very effective .38 Special loads like the GOLD DOT, GOLDEN SABRE and FEDERAL HST (my favorite), but before the latest ammo craze, I could buy a box of .357 for half the price of a box of FEDERAL HST and the .357 is still more effective per shot. So do the math!

I have about 10 .38 Special revolvers, but for self or home defense, I will use my Security Six loaded with the .357 ammo for the foreseeable future. AND AS WITH ALL .357 MAGNUMS, I CAN ALWAYS SHOOT .38 Specials if I want or need without any problems. You cannot say that about .38 Special revolvers.

Jim

P.S.---they go well with my glow in the dark guns!

 

[748]

Plus pee 110gr and 125gr 38spl look fairly nasty on impact and the recoil isn't too bad from a lightweight 357 that really stings with hot 158gr 357 mag ammo.

 

[cfullgraf]

38 Special performs better from a 38 chamber. Shooting 38 Specials in a 357 Mag chamber you get a small amount of blow by as the round leaps down the longer chamber. This can result in a small lost of velocity (25-50 fps typically) and sometimes a small lost in accuracy. In most cases its nearly negligible but it is there.

Do you have a source for data on this? I'd love to read it. Thanks.

Bullseye shooters use 38 Special chambers in their revolvers. That's good enough for me to say 38 Special shoots better in a 38 Special chamber.

Of course, you probably have to be real good to see the difference.

 

[Ivy Mike]

The .38 Special has been the victim of a continual reduction in power from its early days. I don't recall if it was on this forum or somewhere else, but someone posted a picture of an old reloading manual from the 1960s showing loads that would qualify it as a .38 Special +P today and high velocity loadings that approached mild magnum territories. Way back in the long ago, a loading for the .38 Special known as the .38-44 prowled the land and was the basis for the .357 Magnum. Colt said you could load this stout .38 in their Official Police revolvers, and stout it is at 1100+fps with a 158grn bullet. Perhaps it was the desire to not blow up older guns with hot loads that led to the current loadings for .38 Special and .38 Special +P but it seems that this concern may be somewhat unnecessary. If these older guns were already eating these without complaint, perhaps our modern loadings should be reclassified as lite pressure and the +P stuff as standard .38 Special. And really, steel framed guns haven't changed all that much since the advent of modern heat treating. If a Colt Official Police from the 1930s was capable of safely firing .38-44, there is no reason a modern medium framed steel gun can't do it. You might even find some of the non-steel alloy frames capable of handling them.
And that, I think is the reason Taurus labels almost every revolver they make as capable of firing .38 Special +P. They aren't using some magical blend of herbs and spices, they're simply aware that .38 Special loads today are relative pussycats compared to their older predecessors. Even an old Taurus Model 85 is rated for +P ammo.
While I wouldn't want to fire the big 'Outdoorsman' load from my Taurus snubby all the time, I wouldn't think twice about sticking it in my Colt Marshal snubby, which has considerably more gravity in her.

And if you're wondering, Buffalo Bore makes this load today and claims 1250 fps with a 158grn hardcast bullet from a 6" barrel, and around 1150 from a 4". It still carries 1000fps from a 2" from the humble .38 Special. That's modern 9mm performance levels there folks. So if you were ever wondering why .38 Special seemed so weak compared to a 9x19, it's not because autoloaders use magic pixie dust, it's because most everyone was giving you weaksauce loadings in your wheel guns.

 

[ThomasT]

I have also read that the 38 loses some velocity in a 357 chamber and I think that Mass Ayoob wrote that so there is probably some value in the idea. But different barrels and B/C gap will probably make just as much difference in bullet speed.

I like 38s myself and if I were limited to just one handgun it would be my old model 15 and my reloading set up. If I can reload I can make it do duty as a small game gun up to the full allowance of what the gun will take.

In my 357 guns I do shoot some full power loads and a lot more 38s that full power but for the most part when shooting one of my 357s I use a mid range 357 load in 357 cases. Its a load I have used for over two decades and it works great in every 357 I have fired it in including my Marlin lever gun. That load is 6.6grs of Unique with a 158gr hard cast SWC bullet. It should be getting around 1100fps from a 4" barrel. Its more pleasant to shoot than a full bore 357 but a step up from a hot 38.

But for trail walking or just busting rocks on the far side of my buds pond its hard to beat a 38 special. And the 38 doesn't need an expensive jacketed bullet to do its work. A simple inexpensive lead bullet will do all a 38 was designed to do. My model 15 has been my HD gun for well over 25 years. I see no reasong to replace it with something newer. Pics of my 38 caliber revolvers.

 

[Tallball]

I like them both and have various revolvers chambered in both.

357 is fun in large revolvers.

38 special is nice in smaller revolvers.

I've purchased them with that in mind.

 

[Rexster]

Actually, I tend to shoot Magnums in my .357 Magnum revolvers, and Specials in my .38 Special revolvers. This means that I fire very few training rounds with my GP100 revolvers, but they are so very much like my S&W K-Frames, it does not seem to matter. Most of my training rounds, by far, are .22 LR, fired from an S&W 17-4, anyway. They all point the same, for me, from SP101 to K-Frame to Speed Six to GP100, and long-stroke DA is long-stroke DA*. .22 LR is kinder to my aging thumbs, hands, wrists, and arms.

When I was peace officering, I carried .357 Magnums in my .357 duty and “back-up” revolvers. One night, when it really mattered, I saw what a full-pressure Federal Hi-Shok 125-grain .357 JHC will do to a human being. (Not Hydra-Shok, and “JHC” is/was Federal Cartridge-speak for JHP.) That experience tends to encourage me to carry the heavier guns, and carry Magnums in them. OTOH, when carrying lighter weapons, I do not carry the full-pressure Mags, preferring mid-range Mags, or .38 Specials, whichever is roll-marked on the barrel.

*The same is not true, for me, with some other weapons systems. Training with a full-sized Glock G17 does not translate to skill with the semi-compact G19. If I want to shoot a G19 well, I have to train with a G19.

 

[Rexster]

I should add that I use very mild .38 Special loads in my light-alloy-framed revolvers, even if S&W engraved/roll-marked “.357 Magnum” on the barrel. My “tend to shoot Magnums,” in my above post, is not a tendency which applies to my light-alloy weapons, regardless of frame size. The weapons might survive, just fine, but I fired too many big-bore Magnum rounds, during the Eighties, through N-Frame revolvers, with K/L-Frame-sized hands/fingers, so the base joint of my right thumb, and my right wrist, do not need further unnecessary punishment.

 

[fxvr5]

mcb said:
38 Special performs better from a 38 chamber. Shooting 38 Specials in a 357 Mag chamber you get a small amount of blow by as the round leaps down the longer chamber. This can result in a small lost of velocity (25-50 fps typically) and sometimes a small lost in accuracy. In most cases its nearly negligible but it is there.

mcb, how were you testjng velocity? thanks.

 

[John Joseph]

Bullseye shooters use 38 Special chambers in their revolvers. That's good enough for me to say 38 Special shoots better in a 38 Special chamber.

Of course, you probably have to be real good to see the difference.

Colt made a few Pythons chambered in .38 Spl for target shooters to get around the 38 in a 357 chamber kerfuffle . They were even a catalog item one year(I forget which year) but they never really caught on or likely more of them would have found their way into the Tedford PPC universe.

 

[fxvr5]

Bullseye shooters use 38 Special chambers in their revolvers. That's good enough for me to say 38 Special shoots better in a 38 Special chamber.

I'm not sure that's quite enough evidence. 38 revolvers usually cost less than 357 revolvers, so spending less money could drive that decision.

Personally, I prefer data to answer this question.

 

[Pat Riot]

Today I took my “Cop Revolvers” to the range.

All Smith & Wessons: 19-4, 10-7, 36-1, 442-1


I fired a few different .38 Special loads in them all. In all I created about 230 empty pieces of brass to reload.



I got a bit of a surprise today. I had some factory ammo a friend gave me. Some 130 grain Remington UMC TMJ and some 132 grain PMC FMJ. That ammo was very accurate from my model 19 and model 10. I usually shoot 158 grain ammo and reload 158 bullets. Looks like I will be getting my hands on some 130 grain bullets to play around with reloading.

One of the reasons I really like .38 Special is I have severe arthritis in my wrist and severe carpal tunnel syndrome. I am actually having surgery on my wrist this coming Thursday.

Today was a good day at the range.

 

[kBob]

Good luck on the surgery and follow the Doc's orders on recovery. I am sure a few guys around here will shoot a few extra rounds for you in the coming weeks!

-kBob

 

[Pat Riot]

Good luck on the surgery and follow the Doc's orders on recovery. I am sure a few guys around here will shoot a few extra rounds for you in the coming weeks!

-kBob

Thanks very much. I will and I hope everyone does.

One thing I have decided. I am definitely rethinking future purchases. Lighter isn’t necessarily better when it comes to handgun weight and shooting more powerful ammo.

 

[film495]

Agreed with OP. I'm currently in the market for a Colt Police Positive Special. I have a Smith & Wesson Model 10-5. There's got to be a reason why these 38-Special revolvers were popular with law enforcement in days gone by.

I have a 10-7 and figured the same thing. When I got mine anyway, they were much less than a comparable .357 model, and I'm pretty comfortable with what many would consider a modest caliber, .38 Special, 9mm ... I'm not in love with recoil and shoot better with smaller and modest cartridges, and it is more fun to me.

 

[Dave T]

For a while I owned an L-frame S&W chambered for 38 Special. It was an over-run from a Brazilian Police contract. I have a friend who at the time was a serious IROC competitor who shot 38 Specials in a 357 Magnum L-frame. He claimed the grip fit him better than the N-frame 8-shot and so competed in a different class than the Open gamers.

He told me he had always been curious about the claim that 38s loose a bit in a 357 chamber so we tested it. His handload, some number of grains of Unique behind a 160g RNL bullet, was ~ 30 fps faster in my 38 Special chambered S&W L-frame than in his 357 Mag chambered S&W L-frame. We tested it twice and although the average velocities were slightly different (a few FPS) the difference of about 30 fps came out the same.

mcb, I saw the chronograph results with my own eyes (it was my chronograph) so you can cite this as another data point.

Dave

 

[fxvr5]

He told me he had always been curious about the claim that 38s loose a bit in a 357 chamber so we tested it. His handload, some number of grains of Unique behind a 160g RNL bullet, was ~ 30 fps faster in my 38 Special chambered S&W L-frame than in his 357 Mag chambered S&W L-frame. We tested it twice and although the average velocities were slightly different (a few FPS) the difference of about 30 fps came out the same.

mcb, I saw the chronograph results with my own eyes (it was my chronograph) so you can cite this as another data point.

Dave

This is not useful. They are 2 different guns. You might have got the same results from 2 different 38 Special guns.

Speer has a chapter in their loading manual called 'why ballisticians go gray'. They show that there can be a huge difference in speed using the same ammo in different guns of the same model. for example, there was a 203 fps difference between two different S&W Model 19s with a 6" barrel.

The extreme variation they saw in all of the 6" barrel guns (I count 9 in their table, includes Ruger, S&W and Colt) they tested with 125 grain bullets was 376 fps. It's foolish to assume all guns with the same barrel length will produce the same velocity with the same ammo.

 

[golden]

CLean97,

I believe you are mistaken about S&W and the .38-44 load.

Elmer KEITH developed some really hot loads for the .38 Special in the 1930's and wrote about it. When S&W decided to bring out a hot loaded .38 Special, THEY DID NOT RECOMMEND THE K-FRAME Military & Police REVOLVER TO USE THIS AMMO. They took their larger N-frame revolver which normally was chambered for the .44 Special cartridge and chambered it for the .38 Special. They labeled it the 38-44 because it was a larger, heavier, stronger .44 caliber gun chambered for this hot .38 Special load.
They later did the same thing when the introduced the .357 magnum, using the large N-frame instead of the K-frame.

COLT had a little advantage here. Their midsize revolver had not been designed for a .38 size round, but for the larger .41 Long Colt round which had been very popular for COLT in the late 19th century. This larger size gave COLT the confidence to claim that their .41 caliber, mid size revolver could handle the .38-44 while S&W did not think it was safe in the K-frame.

Since my personal experience with model 19's has not been positive, I suspect S&W was right in the first place.

As to downloading ammo, let's understand that a 1920's pressure measurement was not anywhere near as accurate as a 2020 measurement. Also, we know that many of the velocities listed in catalogs were taken with pressure barrels which did not have a cylinder gap and could be 6 or even 8 inches long. Also, those old loads almost always used lead bullets instead of jacketed ones. You can usually get higher velocities with lead ammo due to lower friction with the inside of the barrel when fired. Harder jacket material causes more friction or resistance to passing through the barrel when fired.

Also, please note that BUFFALO BORE is not a member of SAAMI, the ammunition industry standardizing group. So how do you know that their ammo is within industry standards.
Also, law enforcement agencies found that even +P ammo, when used regularly, in K-frame revolvers could damage them. They were designed for a specific pressure and recoil level. The metallurgy is better now, but the design is still the same.
Look at the difference in the top strap of the RUGER Security Six and the S&W model 19/66 and tell my which one is built to take higher pressure loads.

Jim

 

[Pat Riot]

Since my personal experience with model 19's has not been positive, I suspect S&W was right in the first place.

Golden, I consider my model 19 to be a .38 Special that happens to be able to shoot .357 Magnum loads.
The 19 was designed so police officers could have a lighter gun to carry. It was recommended they practice with .38 Special ammo in the guns with a little practice with .357 to know where the round hit so they would know how it shot and how it felt to shoot .357 in the line of duty.
Lots of officers that had the expendable income would buy a matching model 17 so they could practice with .22 ammo and not put extra wear and tear on their duty guns. Quite a few cops I knew in the early 80’s did this.

And you are correct on all your other points from what I have read.

 

[Zendude]

CLean97,

Also, law enforcement agencies found that even +P ammo, when used regularly, in K-frame revolvers could damage them. They were designed for a specific pressure and recoil level. The metallurgy is better now, but the design is still the same.
Look at the difference in the top strap of the RUGER Security Six and the S&W model 19/66 and tell my which one is built to take higher pressure loads.

Jim

What type of damage would the K frame exhibit with the +p loads? Was it damage to the forcing cone due to the forcing cone being thinner at its 6 o’clock position? Or was it flame cutting the top strap?

 

[Ivy Mike]

CLean97,

I believe you are mistaken about S&W and the .38-44 load.

Elmer KEITH developed some really hot loads for the .38 Special in the 1930's and wrote about it. When S&W decided to bring out a hot loaded .38 Special, THEY DID NOT RECOMMEND THE K-FRAME Military & Police REVOLVER TO USE THIS AMMO. They took their larger N-frame revolver which normally was chambered for the .44 Special cartridge and chambered it for the .38 Special. They labeled it the 38-44 because it was a larger, heavier, stronger .44 caliber gun chambered for this hot .38 Special load.
They later did the same thing when the introduced the .357 magnum, using the large N-frame instead of the K-frame.

COLT had a little advantage here. Their midsize revolver had not been designed for a .38 size round, but for the larger .41 Long Colt round which had been very popular for COLT in the late 19th century. This larger size gave COLT the confidence to claim that their .41 caliber, mid size revolver could handle the .38-44 while S&W did not think it was safe in the K-frame.

Since my personal experience with model 19's has not been positive, I suspect S&W was right in the first place.

As to downloading ammo, let's understand that a 1920's pressure measurement was not anywhere near as accurate as a 2020 measurement. Also, we know that many of the velocities listed in catalogs were taken with pressure barrels which did not have a cylinder gap and could be 6 or even 8 inches long. Also, those old loads almost always used lead bullets instead of jacketed ones. You can usually get higher velocities with lead ammo due to lower friction with the inside of the barrel when fired. Harder jacket material causes more friction or resistance to passing through the barrel when fired.

Also, please note that BUFFALO BORE is not a member of SAAMI, the ammunition industry standardizing group. So how do you know that their ammo is within industry standards.
Also, law enforcement agencies found that even +P ammo, when used regularly, in K-frame revolvers could damage them. They were designed for a specific pressure and recoil level. The metallurgy is better now, but the design is still the same.
Look at the difference in the top strap of the RUGER Security Six and the S&W model 19/66 and tell my which one is built to take higher pressure loads.

Jim

You may be right. I saw this ad and thought it referred to the .38-44. Turns out the Super Police load is NOT the .38-44. I have edited my earlier post.

S-l1600

• Ivy Mike
• Sep 19, 2020

 

[Stophel]

As I recall, it was the "+P+ 110gr. Treasury load" that may have caused bad flame cutting. Otherwise, any so-called "+P" ammo is perfectly fine for any post 1920's M&P.