Think before you speak

[CraigC]

Pardon me for asking, but what if time were a critical factor?

If a woman on the lower economic scale (i.e, poor) just left an abusive relationship and needed protection now, as in that night? How would "saving pennies" work in that situation?

If it right to rob someone of their confidence just because they buy low-end off the bat?

You do what you have to when you have to. Like I said, there's nothing wrong with buying a HiPoint if you need something right now and it's all you can afford. I prefer to have all the info possible and if I've bought something subpar, I'd like to know so I can plan ahead. That's where the saving pennies comes in. Nobody is born an expert. We all have to start somewhere and have usually started with inexpensive equipment. It appears that everyone here agrees that there are better choices that cost more money but the point of contention is whether or not to tell someone that.

I'm also not suggesting robbing someone of their confidence. All this can be handled in a productive manner. Seems to me what many here have implied is that people are best left in the dark to figure this all out for themselves. I don't understand or agree with this but we live in a politically correct society where hurt feelings are often seen as the worst possible outcome. There's no excuse for insulting someone who has not deserved it or belittling someone's choice in whatever. These situations can be handled in a productive manner that would be far preferable to leaving folks in the dark.

When I started leatherworking, I bought relatively cheap tools from Tandy. It did not rob me of my confidence to know that I was using less than great tools. They weren't the first tools I ever bought so I knew going in that they weren't that great. I bought cheap tools to learn with and as time passed, I saw that t his was something I wanted to do so I gradually started buying better tools. Would I have been better off if I had deluded myself into thinking that the Tandy tools were the greatest and anything more expensive was just "buying a name"? Hindsight tells me absolutely not. I've encountered quite a few people who have deluded themselves into believing something lesser was more than it really was and they are not better off for it. These are the reasons why discussions surrounding "cheap" guns become to confrontational.

 

[Tirod]

The OP did the right thing.

We as a community DO have a certain snobbishness and it's clearly demonstrated. The first criteria is pricing - there are those of us who go out of their way to spend money for an expensive gun because it is. Owning it then allows them to express their "superior" taste and it props up their ego when they say they have one.

Me, I do the opposite, and likely for much the same reason.

I wanted a hunting rifle for deer when I was newly married, we didn't have much money, so I saved $20 a week out of the paycheck until I had $160 and bought an inexpensive import in .308. I couldn't afford a Boxmart Remington bolt action at the time.

Just recently I was looking for a 1911 and found most were out of my reach in terms of spending comfortably. I wanted a .45 but the CMP if ever released weren't going to be cheap even if they were beaters. I did some research and found an American made pistol for $450. Of course a month later I saw imported 1911's for $350 but we always see a better bargain after the fact.

And, what did I buy? First rifle, a HK91.
Pistol? A S&W 4566TSW.

Cheap inexpensive guns. Go bang every time.

The point if you missed it is that price has NOTHING to do with quality or reliability. Using price as a discriminator to categorize the ability of a weapon to function in a trustworthy manner is a false god. Yet I hear people using it constantly - "Save up more for a decent gun!" when the reality is no, I DON'T need to save up more. I can just as easily by a USED one for less. MSRP is not the holy grail of firearms. I would much rather buy a gun with a long standing reputation for excellence in service first. I find most gun snobs tend to recommend which NEW gun needs to be purchased rather than recommend which GOOD gun should be - frankly, I would buy a used police turn 9mm S&W for the price of the Hi Point and do it every day and twice on Sunday. From all the trash talk about HiPoints I can bet 6 of the 8 I'd get would be in more reliable shape.

There's the major indicator there is a gun snob posting - they never talk used guns and never recommend them. The OP? Did. Executed a trade for one he knew was reliable and did the right thing.

The real irony is that the #1 recommendation of all self defense professionals is "never trust a new gun - go shoot it with your chosen ammo until you do." Most of us never carry a brand new gun and follow that rule. We carry used guns we know to be reliable - right? Like a used car with 80,000 miles, I'd drive it coast to coast almost sight unseen. And yet when the opportunity comes up to say that about guns, nope, it's always "Buy new and start from scratch." I see that as being less reliable and more problematic, ref the thread on "Do you break in your gun with 500 rounds?"

WE ALL CARRY USED GUNS. Snobs need to admit they are just Brand shills first and foremost.

 

[Sundancer2004]

I'm a cwp instructor for SC and as I prepare for a class I'm reminded of something that happened to me back in 2009 in one of my first classes. The question of gun quality and what I thought of Hi Point firearms. I gave my opinion based on what I had seen through the years Wich was not a pretty picture. Unknown to me at the time a young lady that was taking the class had a Hi Point to use for weapons qualification. She was a single mom that had left her abusive husband and moved to SC. She worked 3 jobs to support her and her daughter. She worked at the grocery store, night shift at the gas station on the bad side of town and cleaned houses in between. She had little education and those were her only type options not that there's anything wrong with that but money was tight. Later when we got to weapons qual she came up to me and apologized for having such a "Bad gun" and I knew at that moment I had shattered her self confidence after all she had overcome to get to where she was. Well as to be expected she did not do very well with qualification and a lot of it was my fault. After everyone else shot I ask her to try again with one of my range revolvers a older but very nice Rossi M88. We went over some pointers and she had no problems passing. Knowing she needed protection for her and her daughter and after seeing the grin on her face I had to go a step further to correct my wrong. I told her I was looking for a Hi Point as a demonstrator for class and would she do a one for one trade , my revolver for her used HI Point. And she was thrilled. Not being professional that day cost me but I slept very good that night. And to this day every Christmas without fail we get a card from her and her daughter. So next time your bad mouthing someone's equipment or whatever stop and be professional.

Thanks for the reminder we all need.

 

[Sundancer2004]

Why was it "to be expected"? Because she used a Hi-Point pistol to qualify? What was the problem? Was it not properly sighted?

having worked with abused women, and seeing first hand the effects it has i.e.: loss of confidence , self worth, an overall doubtfulness of their abilities I understand that pointing out that their weapon is inferior(worthless) will, not shall, effect her ability to concentrate and compete. He obviously saw this and took corrective action.

 

[sarge83]

What people can and can't afford is often a matter of choice. Those who can't "afford" more can also not "afford" to waste money on crap either. I go round and round about this with one of my friends who is undeniably what you would call "cheap". He's not frugal or careful with his money, he's just cheap. He'll often waste a dollar to save a dime. I've seen him pay $30 for something because it was cheap when he could've paid $60 for something good. The $30 item didn't last very long but the $60 item would've lasted for years, way out of proportion to the cost. Which was the wiser investment? If you don't have $60 to spend, you don't have $30 to waste.

This guy is frugal and really doesn't have the money to spend to be wasteful. He drives a 20 yr. old truck, helps take care of his mom, eats lots of cheap mac and cheese, Ramon noodles etc... a splurging event for him would be to buy a $5 pizza from little Caesars when his son comes over to visit, and will not take charity period. So when he says I have X amount of dollars, that is what he has, he budgets for everything in advance. Some people claim they don't have money and like you say they do but they waste it. I have had employees with three kids moaning about being short in funds for Christmas hoping for sympathy and $$$ from me on a guilt trip yet sporting a new tattoo, they got nothing. And it is easy to assume all people are like this but they are not you are assuming a lot with your statement and you know what happens when you assume.


Quoted again for posterity.[/QUOTE]

 

[CraigC]

We as a community DO have a certain snobbishness and it's clearly demonstrated. The first criteria is pricing - there are those of us who go out of their way to spend money for an expensive gun because it is. Owning it then allows them to express their "superior" taste and it props up their ego when they say they have one.

Straw argument after straw argument. No one here has made any of the arguments you are countering with your post. It certainly does not apply to me.

About used guns. I buy used guns all the time. Not as many as I used to because there is less selection here than where I grew up. I don't recommend used guns to new shooters because there is a learning curve associated with buying used guns and it's real easy to get burned. Secondly, if I recommend a $279 Ruger LC9 (oh yes, such a snob!), it's because anybody with access to an FFL can get one. I have no idea what used guns you might have access to, their condition or their pricing. New guns are universal, everybody has access to them. If I had this week to find a used M&P or Ruger Security Six for $300, I'd be in a pickle. But I can drive 15mins and buy new guns all day long. If they don't have it, they can order it and have it in a few days.

On the flipside, in any discussion about the Heritage Rough Rider, another cheap gun that attracts heated debate, folks will often recommend a used Single Six. Myself included, having bought three in the $200 range. Then you hear all the whining about how they never see used Single Sixes or they're priced too high. Sometimes you just can't win for losing. No matter what you say, somebody is going to have a problem with it.

And it is easy to assume all people are like this but they are not you are assuming a lot with your statement and you know what happens when you assume.

Calm down, it's a generalization. I'm assuming nothing.

 

[Reloadron]

Not being professional that day cost me but I slept very good that night. And to this day every Christmas without fail we get a card from her and her daughter. So next time your bad mouthing someone's equipment or whatever stop and be professional.

Sometimes being 100% professional needs set aside in order to just simply be a good person. You did a very "good thing" the rewards for which have ways to come back, I think it is a Karma thing? She came away a happy girl and you managed a sort of touchy situation very well. Now in the future praise Hi Point as people up here in Ohio need the jobs and income. Seriously, nice move on your part.

Ron

 

[fpgt72]

IMHO, today there are very few "bad" guns....and by bad I define it as something that just will not work.

I don't get why all these "experts" say the hi point carbine is an ok gun, but the pistol is not.....ahh....ok.

There are people that can't afford this or that, and the OP's story is proof. Those that say well people choose this or that....<--------Art Edit------------->

And for a new owner coming in blind you have no idea how scary it is....and goes double true for a single woman with already "issues" with men, in a male dominated area like firearms. NO IDEA AT ALL.
This is why you see women only classes, they don't get talked down to....or lectured.

If you know nothing about gunz anything new in the box is going to sound better then something you know nothing about.....and you know nothing about this area.

Personally I think any automatic is the wrong choice for a person like the OP talked about....a revolver is so much better.....this person is new....living in a bad area....if the thing does not go bang when it needs to just pull the trigger again....and again....and again....6-8-10 times....whatever it takes.

 

[skeptical_in_Ohio]

My experience has been the same as yours, crude, cheap, ugly, clunky and very reliable. I had heard enough bashing of Hi Points on various forums that I decided to get one for myself. A $120 experiment seemed cheap to me. I found that it's surprisingly accurate and has been as reliable as any other handgun I've owned and I trust it enough to leave one in my garage. If it rusts, who cares, it's a gun I spent $120 on!

I was impressed enough with Hi Point's value that I picked up a carbine, and it's been just as reliable as the pistol. But I'm not familiar with any "unsafe" stories. You know what firearm I HAVE heard some unsafe stories about? Glocks. And the one I owned experienced 3 jams in the 2,000 rounds I put through it. I considered that unreliable enough that I sold it.

Hi-Point versus Glock story. Because I had heard all the bashing, I bought a HP to try out (that a LGS had it for $110 didn't hurt). Full disclosure - once I had satisfied myself that I could hit the inside of a barn and it wouldn't blow up or escape the safe and strangle me or whatever I sold it to a LGS at a slight loss).

At any rate, I (an OK shot) took it to a local range and the RSO (who's a good shot) and both he and I took turns with the HP and a PD trade-in Glock 19. I can't say for sure it was NYPD, but it did have the (in)famous "orange" NY-2 Trigger module that gave it something like a 10-pound plus pull that stacked, felt odd and seemed to reset kind of funny to boot. Both of us were more accurate at 15 feet with the HP than we were with the Glock that had the NY-2 module. Your mileage may vary.

To finish up the story, I did get a NY1 module and a glockparts.com connector so the 19 now has a very nice 5.5-6 pound pull that breaks crisply and with a good reset.

Moral of the story - I can afford something a little more expensive than a HP, but I had a good experience with the one I tested. Nothing to be embarrassed about there at all. I also now have a greater appreciation for the marksmanship of NYPD officers - if you can hit the inside of a barn with that NY-2 trigger you're pretty good.

 

[Schwing]

I think you showed far more class that I could have in this situation. That is a great "Passing it forward" story.

Having said that, I have purchased Hi Points before and have had nothing but great luck with them. I'm far from rich but money hasn't been that much of an issue for me for a few years. I still picked up a Hi Point 9mm carbine and it is one of my favorite range toys.

 

[9MMare]

Of course, it’s possible to express an opinion concerning a firearm in a constructive manner.

“Hi-Point is a good entry-level pistol for those on a budget” and the like.

Yes, nice. I'd recommend something like that also.

Let your students know the realities of the importance of reliability in a firearm in general, and maybe where the Hi-Point falls on that scale, and help set their expectations on carrying and caring for that piece.

 

[webrx]

I bought a Hi-point, with coupons and etc, got it for ~$80 new, I could afford it (even if it was junk) and I wanted to see how bad they were myself.

I have seen FTEs/FTLs with it when my son and wife shot it, I did not experience the same issue as they did, when I showed them they had to keep a firm wrist and not ride the recoil of this blowback gun, the FTEs stopped. I also now have a 9mm HP Carbine so my wife has a fun carbine to shoot, both have been 100% reliable once you understand that you cant limp wrist the C9.

If you see someone having an issue with a HP and FTEs or FTLs, check to see if they are holding firm against the slide when it cycles.

If it was all I could afford, I could carry it, it is not, so I don't.

I think new shooters tend to ride the recoil or limp wrist and that is why many have a problem with a HP.

A revolver is a much better option in my opinion then a SA for a new shooter point and shoot if it misfires, pull the trigger again,

Testdrive is a gentleman, and kudo's for what he did.

Just my opinion.

Dave

 

[Paladin7]

I have to say that what you did was an extremely nice gesture and demonstrates what a remarkable individual you are. So, thank you.

Personally, I prefer honesty, even if the truth hurts. It's all in how the message is delivered. I'd rather see someone have a reliable high quality gun vs having something that may not go bang when their life depends on it.

I do a lot of volunteer work in ministry among the poor, and have been doing this for the past 30 years. Through this experience, I've learned that people who are perpetually poor and downtrodden got that way through a series of extremely bad decisions on their part. They need to take personal responsibility and own up to their mistakes in order to progress in life. Some of these folks financial decisions would make your hair stand up on end. Nearly all cannot distinguish between wants and needs. Almost never have I seen people who have just been dealt a bad hand repeatedly which caused them to end up in their situation.

I generally counsel people in bad circumstances, who need a gun for personal defense, i.e. battered women, good people in extremely bad neighborhoods, etc. to buy a quality used firearm and help them with their priorities and in managing their finances to be able to afford one. A used S&W or Ruger 38 Special doesn't cost a whole lot where I live, since most people are overly enamored with semi-autos, so that is the direction I take them. I will help these folks through the license applications and bring them to my club to learn how to use their firearm effectively.

Just my thoughts, YMMV...

 

[buck460XVR]

Through this experience, I've learned that people who are perpetually poor and downtrodden got that way through a series of extremely bad decisions on their part. They need to take personal responsibility and own up to their mistakes in order to progress in life.

That certainly does not, IMHO, describe the woman in the OP. Sounds like she made one bad choice in men and her present economic situation is mostly due to her ex husband. Sounds like she has made good choices since(leaving him and moving on) and is doing everything in her power to get on with life and providing for herself and her children. Certainly sounds like she is taking personal responsibility and owning up to her mistakes in order to progress in life. I doubt if many of these fine folks here telling her to cough up a few more bucks for a better gun, are working three jobs. When one has a choice between a firearm and providing for their children, which choice should they really make? Not everyone that has temporarily fallen on hard times is a dirtball. Got a good friend who retired early right before Bush took office. He and his wife lived comfortably on what they had put into their 401Ks. By the end of Bush's term and their 401s had lost half their value, he had to sell off most of his guns in order to help out his daughter who was in a similar situation as the girl in the OP. He was left with a Topper single shot 12 ga. to hunt with and for HD. He has since increased his collection a bit, but still, because of the past, sticks with less expensive firearms. Hard to judge folks when you haven't walked in their shoes.

She was a single mom that had left her abusive husband and moved to SC. She worked 3 jobs to support her and her daughter. She worked at the grocery store, night shift at the gas station on the bad side of town and cleaned houses in between. She had little education and those were her only type options not that there's anything wrong with that but money was tight.

 

[Paladin7]

That certainly does not, IMHO, describe the woman in the OP. Sounds like she made one bad choice in men and her present economic situation is mostly due to her ex husband. Sounds like she has made good choices since(leaving him and moving on) and is doing everything in her power to get on with life and providing for herself and her children. Certainly sounds like she is taking personal responsibility and owning up to her mistakes in order to progress in life. I doubt if many of these fine folks here telling her to cough up a few more bucks for a better gun, are working three jobs. When one has a choice between a firearm and providing for their children, which choice should they really make? Not everyone that has temporarily fallen on hard times is a dirtball. Got a good friend who retired early right before Bush took office. He and his wife lived comfortably on what they had put into their 401Ks. By the end of Bush's term and their 401s had lost half their value, he had to sell off most of his guns in order to help out his daughter who was in a similar situation as the girl in the OP. He was left with a Topper single shot 12 ga. to hunt with and for HD. He has since increased his collection a bit, but still, because of the past, sticks with less expensive firearms. Hard to judge folks when you haven't walked in their shoes.

Buck, I see your point. Maybe after 30 years of working with folks like these I'm a bit jaded and didn't explain myself as clearly as I would have liked. My experience, through the school of hard knocks, has led me to look deeper at what is really going on when people are in these situations. Most folks on the outside of situations like these have an immediate protective reaction for the woman, which is wrong in my opinion. These situations can vary widely, for example; someone marrying the local thug, to a husband who develops issues with alcohol or drugs, to what is almost never mentioned...the woman herself having issues with intoxicants or a severe and potentially dangerous personality disorder, like a Borderline Personality Disorder (look into this one). These women can also be abusers of their husbands. This happens more than people think. That means some people in these situations should not have firearms to begin with. If you are not aware of what you are dealing with, then you cannot make that decision wisely. There are rarely situations where something cannot be pawed or sold to get the $ 200 - 300 to buy a quality used revolver with some help and guidance. There are also family members and friends who might step in to help. If the person is truly destitute, is not in the personality disorder/substance abuse category, and doesn't have anything of value, no family or friends to help, then I agree with you... a cheaper firearm is the way to go... Hope that makes sense.

 

[CraigC]

I do a lot of volunteer work in ministry among the poor, and have been doing this for the past 30 years. Through this experience, I've learned that people who are perpetually poor and downtrodden got that way through a series of extremely bad decisions on their part. They need to take personal responsibility and own up to their mistakes in order to progress in life. Some of these folks financial decisions would make your hair stand up on end. Nearly all cannot distinguish between wants and needs. Almost never have I seen people who have just been dealt a bad hand repeatedly which caused them to end up in their situation.

Well said, very insightful.

In a nutshell, that is the primary thing that distinguishes between the haves and have-nots. Has little to do with silver spoons or trust funds. The cold, hard truth is that most people are in a situation of their own making. It's not a politically correct or popular thing to say but it's the truth more often than not. The popular thing to do is to either blame others or circumstances because that let's them off the hook for their own personal responsibility. The emotional, defensive response to these statements is proof that they're accurate and is one of the reasons why some people will never change.

That certainly does not, IMHO, describe the woman in the OP. Sounds like she made one bad choice in men and her present economic situation is mostly due to her ex husband. Sounds like she has made good choices since(leaving him and moving on) and is doing everything in her power to get on with life and providing for herself and her children. Certainly sounds like she is taking personal responsibility and owning up to her mistakes in order to progress in life. I doubt if many of these fine folks here telling her to cough up a few more bucks for a better gun, are working three jobs. When one has a choice between a firearm and providing for their children, which choice should they really make? Not everyone that has temporarily fallen on hard times is a dirtball. Got a good friend who retired early right before Bush took office. He and his wife lived comfortably on what they had put into their 401Ks. By the end of Bush's term and their 401s had lost half their value, he had to sell off most of his guns in order to help out his daughter who was in a similar situation as the girl in the OP. He was left with a Topper single shot 12 ga. to hunt with and for HD. He has since increased his collection a bit, but still, because of the past, sticks with less expensive firearms. Hard to judge folks when you haven't walked in their shoes.

You clearly have not taken the posts in this thread as intended. This is exactly why people are never able to have these discussions and it's also the reason why many have-nots will never be haves (I'm sure you'll read something snooty into that). First thing 'some' folks want to do is get defensive, even when it's not about them. I took Paladin's post as an astute observation and a generalization. NOT as "judging people" and not throwing out a universal "dirtball" label. There was nothing offensive in his post whatsoever but you decided to take it that way. You have also cast judgement on someone who has spent 30yrs doing volunteer work with the poor. Ask yourself why.

I doubt if many of these fine folks here telling her to cough up a few more bucks for a better gun, are working three jobs.

The oft-used position of proletariat moral superiority. You are somehow privy to the history of everyone participating in this thread? You think you're responding to trust fund babies? Personally, I'm in a position where I can buy whatever firearm I want within reason. Fact is, people like you love to make assumptions about people like me but you do so without only a superficial impression and get really defensive when the shoe is on the other foot. I wasn't born here. I got here by working 365 days a year for 12 long years. I had my first "weekend" off about eight months ago. I put that in quotes because it's in the middle of the week. I've worked Saturdays for over 20yrs and Sundays for 12yrs. You do what you have to to get ahead. It's sad that a person has to divulge personal information to validate their point.

Furthermore, you don't think someone working 3 jobs deserves to know the truth? Or should they be shielded from it to protect their feelings? People don't realize how liberalized their thinking has become. All I'm preaching here is personal responsibility.

When one has a choice between a firearm and providing for their children, which choice should they really make?

Providing security with an abusive husband on the loose is not a priority???

 

[buck460XVR]

Buck, I see your point. Maybe after 30 years of working with folks like these I'm a bit jaded and didn't explain myself as clearly as I would have liked. My experience, through the school of hard knocks, has led me to look deeper at what is really going on when people are in these situations. Most folks on the outside of situations like these have an immediate protective reaction for the woman, which is wrong in my opinion. These situations can vary widely, for example; someone marrying the local thug, to a husband who develops issues with alcohol or drugs, to what is almost never mentioned...the woman herself having issues with intoxicants or a severe and potentially dangerous personality disorder, like a Borderline Personality Disorder (look into this one). These women can also be abusers of their husbands. This happens more than people think.

I am very aware of why some women put themselves into abusive situations and the fact the abusive behavior is not gender specific. Sometimes, due to abuse while being brought up, women(and men) think they deserve or can obtain no better. Sometime choices made early in life are made with different perspectives. What we were told about the young lady in the OP was quite vague, but most was of her doing things in a positive and correct manner. It might not be she was destitute, maybe she just did not know any better than to buy a Hi-Point. Again, IMHO, what the author of the post did was a good thing after making a mistake many of us have in the past.....condemning the choices of others using biases of our own, without knowing the whole story. Much of what I have seen posted here is evidence of the same thing. JMTCs.

If the person is truly destitute, is not in the personality disorder/substance abuse category, and doesn't have anything of value, no family or friends to help, then I agree with you... a cheaper firearm is the way to go... Hope that makes sense.

Makes perfect sense, and basically what I was trying to say from the get-go. Many times I don't explain myself as clearly as I would like either.

 

[Paladin7]

Buck460XVR, thank you for your thoughtful response and glad this didn't end up in a flame war...

 

[Madcap_Magician]

I made the snob statement and stand by it WHEN the person who can afford whatever he wants tries to tell someone who cannot afford the same that he/she is buying/owns an unsafe gun and should buy something better. So please tell me, what makes a Hi Point an unsafe choice? We've read here of people who own them or shoot them and find them accurate and reliable. There are links to other sites that say the same thing. To me, if a gun is reliable and accurate it is not junk not matter what you paid for it, Telling someone that they bought a POS because it is beneath your level of acceptance is snobbery if the gun is safe, reliable and accurate. Hi Points have proven to be all that.

There is a line, though, I think Hi Points are on the safe side of it, but if someone came to one of my classes with a Lorcin or a Jennings, I would tell them that the gun is unsafe to carry even if they couldn't afford better. People who buy guns like that fall into two categories- people who don't know that they're unsafe, and people for whom price is the sole consideration.

I think the real issue is the snobbery. It's one thing to say that Hi-Points are heavy, non-ergonomic, have low capacity for their size/weight, and are hard to conceal and carry, all of which are opinions largely borne out by the evidence. It's another to say that it's a terrible gun, which is mostly subjective opinion, or to do anything that implies that people who buy them are somehow inferior, which can be easy to do for people like us, because we know better and most of us can afford better.

I actually had a situation similar to the OP. A fellow on my church security team who is retired from the Army, but in college and working for Teen Challenge making not a lot of money- a bunch of us were talking about guns and there was some "At least I don't own a Hi Point..." talk, when he said that his only gun was a Hi Point. I felt kind of bad about that because I knew he didn't have a ton of money. He later bought a Sig P290, so the money wasn't so tight that he wasn't able to eventually improve his gun, but still.

 

[CraigC]

IMHO, we can discuss the inferiority of the guns without implying inferiority of the individual. These are mutually exclusive and should be treated as such. Some folks can't separate the two and that is evident in some of the more defensive responses. No individuals or guns have been "condemned" here.

 

[whughett]

Somewhere in the last four pages of " In my opinion" someone may have mentioned the word "confidence" , I'm not interested enough of "In my opinion" replies to have read through them. The Op's intent, "In my opinion" was that his remarks regarding her firearm had destroyed her "confidence" not only in her firearm but in her self to use it.. His entire post was not about the brand of weapon, but about how he, as an instructor had set someone off down the wrong path by his remarks.

A good salesman never elevates his own product by bad mouthing another.

 

[MTNSTRYDER]

You sir are a true Gentleman and a credit to all

 

[fastbolt]

This can be a hard lesson for some people who want to be firearms instructors to learn, and having watched a lot of LE instructors over the years, there's always going to be someone who never seems to learn this lesson.

There's always going to be someone who thinks part of their job description as a firearms instructor is to shill some particular gun which they personally like.

 

[Madcap_Magician]

This can be a hard lesson for some people who want to be firearms instructors to learn, and having watched a lot of LE instructors over the years, there's always going to be someone who never seems to learn this lesson.

There's always going to be someone who thinks part of their job description as a firearms instructor is to shill some particular gun which they personally like.

I for one would love to shill for a gun company I like, but so far they have all been unwilling to pay me, so I've been forced to remain agnostic in my recommendations.

 

[Archie]

Knowing she needed protection for her and her daughter and after seeing the grin on her face I had to go a step further to correct my wrong. I told her I was looking for a Hi Point as a demonstrator for class and would she do a one for one trade , my revolver for her used HI Point. And she was thrilled. Not being professional that day cost me but I slept very good that night. And to this day every Christmas without fail we get a card from her and her daughter.

That's a class act, sir. Well done.

Just for the record, one of the fellows at our twice-monthly practical (more or less) pistol matches regularly shoots a Hi-Point. He's an older gentleman (like me) and doesn't shoot or move as fast as he used to, but typically hits well with his shots. His Hi-Point (9mm Parabellum) is ugly, clunky looking and runs pretty well - depending on which magazine he uses.

As you mentioned, Test Drive, some folks simply do not have the budget (or use) for a high dollar defense pistol. But they know the realities and dangers of living in the real world (like a single mom and daughter). A Hi-Point is a much better option than a mop handle.