This is the HIGH ROAD isn't it????????

[dave_pro2a]

Another thread just reminded me of this issue:

I think a lot of average gun owners feel more than a little betrayed by H.R.218.

Cops got the keys to the kingdom, and 'normal' citizens got the shaft, especially now that the Democrats control congress. When you have what is essentially a 2 tier citizenship structure, with some enjoying their rights more fully than others, then yes you can expect a bit of a backlash.

 

[Otherguy Overby]

Sheesh, it's still going?

Okay, don't forget that the really bad cops generally aren't representative of the whole. So, let's look back at what LEOs at the local level have accomplished. They found out about some kind of 9-11 conspiracy and sent reports up their chain of command. Of course these went through bureaucrats and were then either filtered or ignored.

Was this because of enforcement people on the street? Not a chance.

So, let me ask this question: What are the easiest strategies a bureaucrat can use to show he's doing something?

a) Long term investigation of possible terrorists who are a "protected" political class.

b) Investigation of other bureaucrats for failures in office.

c) Investigation of cults/militias, gun nuts or druggies or some other non-PC segment of the population.

Finally, regarding remarks on paranoia, what kind of governments in the 20th century killed more people than at any other time in history? Socialist/communist governments.

Paranoia of a government having socialist/communist tendencies is a survival instinct.

ps: The only reason our government can maintain it's WOD is our strong economy...

 

[hankdatank1362]

Darn, I thought this was The Firing Line!!!



J/K...TFL is awesome too!

This is the High Road, and is maintained as such by vigilant moderators and thoughtful posters. Don't let a few kooks spoil your experience here.

 

[expvideo]

Old Dog said:
Now, not to pick on Mr. expvideo, but I was curious about why, at only age 22, he possessed such a jaundiced view of law enforcement, so I tried reading through all his previous posts. Couldn't locate any mention or specifics of his negative encounters with cops, although did read about his fascinating exploits involving drawing his handgun, several firsthand accounts of witnessing violent events and open-carry in the state of Washington (which doesn't really exist in the cities). So yeah, I'd chalk up the example post as a good example of hit-and-run anti-LEO sentiment.

I used to work at a night club. There were several fights and many of them involved guns. And open carry is legal in WA in all cities. I'd like it very much if you would quote a source for your claim that it is not.
My source:

RCW 9.41.290
Local laws and ordinances that are inconsistent with, more restrictive than, or exceed the requirements of state law shall not be enacted and are preempted and repealed, regardless of the nature of the code, charter, or home rule status of such city, town, county, or municipality

You're entitled to your own opinion, but I have in fact had to pull a weapon several times and I have in fact witnessed several violent events. Just because you haven't doesn't mean that they don't happen. I worked in a very dangerous part of town, so I ended up seeing some violence. Is that such a stretch of the imagination?

 

[Checkman]

Yes there is a strong anti-leo attitude here. I've been a cop for awhile and it's pretty easy to recognize. Oh well. Police have been called all types of nasty things for decades. Sometimes its deserved and sometimes it isn't, but it's nothing new. Could have been a fireman, but I find it lots of fun being a jackbooted (insert your favorite slur here)

 

[Old Dog]

Well, expvideo, you did not, in fact, respond to my assertion that you've never provided substantiating comments vis a vis your alleged negative encounters with your local law enforcement. Given your extensive experience dealing with riff-raff in the rough city of Seattle, I'd expect you to have plenty of cop stories to share with us ...

Ever tried walking down Broadway, Pacific, Marine View or Evergreen at high noon in Everett with a holstered shootin' iron strapped to your waist in plain view of everyone? Please do so, then report back to us on your "open carry" experiences in Washington State. Oh, and try the Fred Meyer store in Ellensberg, or Pike Place Market, too ...

Just because you haven't doesn't mean that they don't happen.

Hmm? Do you think you know me?

 

[Checkman]

well said Old Dog.You fogot to ask about his three illegal arrests. Perhaps he now owns the department(s) and makes his own rules

 

[miconoakisland]

McDonalds

Most cops are no different than the person behind the counter at McDonalds, except that they give you what they feel like giving you.

"I'd like a Big Mac"
"Here's your McRib"
"I didn't order that"
"You don't order me around, write the owner, now take your McRib"

Police are in existance "to serve and protect".
They no longer serve and have been judged unliable to protect.
Police are "To harass and fill city coffers".
"Oops!" to a mere citizen means jail time and thousands of dollars.
To a police officer it means an amusing anecdote.
Once those chosen to uphold the law are subject to those same laws, then my opinion may change.
Ever seen a state trooper doing the speed limit? If he is exceeding the limit without lights, he is in violation of the law. I wonder how many police officers have been issued tickets while violating the law in their official vehicles?
I try to always obey the letter of the law in order to not be at the whim of a man with powers of arrest and a gun. I obey laws, however inane, for the sole purpose of avoiding contact with undereducated power junkies.

It bugs the snot out me to see a LEO at the range with poor safety habits (sweeping others, finger on the trigger, etc.) and hearing them reply to my concerns, "It's ok, I'm LEO."

 

[dave_pro2a]

Old Dog: making a blanket statement that "open carry is illegal in Washington State" is incorrect. It shows a lack of understanding about the law.

Read the law yourself http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.270

Nowhere does the RCWs outlaw open carry, but it is so poorly written that a person could be arrested for open carry at any time.

Open carry is not illegal, and yet you might be arrested for open carry -- the likelyhood of arrest increases based upon proximity to the uber-liberal King County.

Old Dog, I'll assume you're not an attorney. I know I'm not. That means anything you or I say on the matter is worth exactly what the paper it's printed on is worth. So talk to an attorney, or get Workman's book, or join the WA CCW yahoo group.

 

[Old Dog]

Ah, comes now someone chiming in from the cheap seats, as expected, with a superb example of what Mr. Bartley rightly considers "cop bashing."

"Oops!" to a mere citizen means jail time and thousands of dollars.
To a police officer it means an amusing anecdote.

Sorry to have to be the one to educate you on this, Mr. Mikonoakisland, but in most jurisidictions, jail time and thousands of dollars normally arrives subsequent to much more than an "oops." And to a cop, an "oops" will normally cost him or her at a minimum, a written reprimand or censure in his/her file, suspension or loss of his/her chosen career -- and since cops are held to a higher standard, regardless of whatever it is you really believe, it's even easier for cops to end up as the defendant in court ...

try to always obey the letter of the law in order to not be at the whim of a man with powers of arrest and a gun. I obey laws, however inane, for the sole purpose of avoiding contact with undereducated power junkies.

Here again this perfect display of ignorance underscores Mr. Bartley's thesis. You evidently don't know many cops, particularly successful officers in larger departments. Most possess education well beyond the secondary school level -- I know many officers, sergeants and lieutenants with at least bachelor's degrees, quite a few with master's degrees, and all with far more job training that you'll ever know ...

Dave_pro2A: I'm well aware of the RCWs. I enforce 'em. I'm simply stating that the reality is that open carry is not widely accepted here. Personally, I'm all for it. I'm simply hoisting the B.S. flag on young expvideo's tall tales of his exploits as a CCW Samurai in Seattle. We don't need youngsters pulling guns when they witness bar fights outside our local establishments.

 

[razorburn]

the sandwich thing made me laugh.

I've had good and bad encounters with the cops. One of them was helpful when I was looking for a place to shoot in a small town, even emailed me a list of places that he shot at. I considered him a friend and all around good guy after that. Another time, a campus cop threatened me with a false DUI that he admitted would not hold up in order to force compliance. His exact words were that he knew it wouldn't hold "but do you want to spend a day in court fighting it?". Then took my car and parked it in no-parking area, so I got a parking ticket when I went to pick it up the next day too .

 

[goon]

Perhaps the problem is that what you cosider to be a moral "high road" differs from what I consider to be one.

If you don't agree with someone else's point of view, fine.
It isn't that you disagree, it is how you disagree.
That is what makes this "The High Road".

 

[hydrashok407]

Glenn Bartley said:
Since when has this become an 'Us Against Them' thing, when them is just law enforcement.

In the public eye, law enforcement (in general) needs to be put "in check". It happens occasionally, and this, too, will eventually die down. In the past couple of decades, law enforcement has suffered some pretty severe "black eyes". The days of "Officer Joe, the friendly neighborhood beat cop" are long gone, but how well law enforcement ranks in the general public's eye is often on a rollercoaster ride.

People tend to lose trust in law enforcement when there is a group of officers/agents making mistakes. Furthermore, it angers to general public to no end when LEOs aren't "burned at the stake" when they make a mistake.

How much prison time did any of the officers receive when they beat the snot out of Rodney King? What happened to Lon Horiuchi when he killed unarmed Vicki Weaver with an infant in her arms? What happened to Janet Reno over the Branch Davidian fiasco in Mt Carmel, TX? What happened to those New Orleans officers who illegally confiscated Katrina victims' weapons?

You know, and I know, that police officers are human. To the public, police officers are a badge, and thus, should be held to a higher standard. Magnify that with the media drooling over any mishap, and cops are going to be continuously portrayed--in the public eye--as corrupt, abusive, power-hungry thugs. With the recent incidents involving law enforcement combined with the constant negative spin the media unduly gives each of those incidents, you may want to consider it seems to the public (like the people who post here) that it's law enforcement with the "us against them" attitude.

Any law enforcement officer (who is honest with themselves) will admit they have a different view and attitude towards other law enforcement officers than with civilians.

All that said, "they" aren't "JUST law enforcement". "They" have recently suffered some pretty rough black eyes in the public's view, and it's going to take some time to heal.

 

[M.Kalashnikov]

My soul

Before i start I'm 18 a male and getting my GED

The High Road is paved by us "guys" . The road starts out a black strip as fare as the eye can see but if we don't have lines we will crash the lines are made of "Blood" . The blood of innocent people like the 93 year old Lady and our Men and woman in blue,tan,black. We must look at the lines if we wish to make better High Roads if we don't no one will get ware they need to be. The guide to the High Road is not on a map it's in our souls the thing that gets us down the High Road.

To quote Guns 'n Roses. Take that one to hart.

Remember we are reading the same book wear just on a different chapter.

 

[lurkersince03]

You.. you mean a soul, not a sole, right?

 

[M.Kalashnikov]

lurkersince03 Thank you sir for pointing that out

 

[wheelgunslinger]

Recently got pulled and ticketed by a rookie. After he took my license while standing out of my view (seriously, I had no way to identify him), he wrote and presented my ticket for not wearing a seat belt, and then told me why he pulled me over.
I looked in my mirror as he walked away. Tactical pants, tactical shirt, batman belt. High and tight. Not someone who looks ready to protect and serve.
He picked my pocket for $100. Seat belt fine (25 bucks) + court costs (75 bucks).
I went home and fired up the old Photoshop program and printed myself a sticker. Black field with a blue horizontal line through it. Still don't wear my seat belt and haven't been pulled again.
Meh. I know what the deal is and i'm more tired of writing about it than i am of being irritated by it.
If the high road has to be cop friendly, no-knock friendly, and "disarm you for your own safety despite the 2nd amendment" friendly, to be The High Road, then so be it.
I've got a blue and black sticker that tells me all I need to know. I can keep my yapper shut and talk only about guns on here. But, the frustration level of average joes shouldn't be ignored or treated as unfair criticism. People are actually trying to fix the problem by sharing stories and venting because they want LEOs that protect and serve. Stifling them is just making things worse.

 

[gunrunner811]

Why complain, no one "picked your pocket" you admit you weren't wearing your seat belt. Why does it matter what the Officer was wearing. BDU Pants and high and tight hair cuts are scary lets do away with them, just like flash hiders and bayonet lugs...Remember the 94 crime bill that worked...

 

[BigFatKen]

zero tolerance

I was for the war on drugs until some guy got his $5 milliom boat impounded 'cause some teenaged clean up crew left their joint roaches in the engine room. About 1983.

 

[SuperNaut]

I toured in a rock band for many years and was on the receiving end of the prejudice and persuasion of the boys in blue more times than I can count. If I had a dollar for every time a cop explained that "not all cops are like that" I'd be rich man. I've been cuffed, maced, tazed, detained, batonned, had property confiscated (later returned), lied to, etc. etc. etc. Yet I've never been charged with anything or arrested for anything. I have no record.

It isn't bashing if it is true, and maybe not "all cops are like that" but if they do nothing while it happens, or defend the actions of the cops who are like that, then they are just as bad.

You are reaching for your baton right now.

 

[expvideo]

EDIT: changed my mind. Old Dog, you obviously only plan to use my statements against me, so forget it.

 

[DRMMR02]

It's all pretty simple.

Humans, especially criminals, don't like being told what to do. They like to do what they feel like, act how they want, take what they want, and don't like anyone getting in their way.

Cops get in the way. Every crime is someone doing what they want instead of what is best. Cops search for these people. The entire purpose of police is to stop people from doing what they want if it is harmful to others. Civilization is based on a "social contract". "I won't steal from you if you won't steal from me" "I won't kill you if you don't kill me". But some people don't agree to those terms. And it is the job of police to find them, and prevent them from doing whatever they feel like. Because those people doing what they feel like usually involves hurting others.

So it's only natural that police are going to gain a lot of enemies. They stand for what is best for society, not for what individuals feel like doing.

 

[expvideo]

Dave_pro2A: I'm well aware of the RCWs. I enforce 'em. I'm simply stating that the reality is that open carry is not widely accepted here. Personally, I'm all for it. I'm simply hoisting the B.S. flag on young expvideo's tall tales of his exploits as a CCW Samurai in Seattle. We don't need youngsters pulling guns when they witness bar fights outside our local establishments.

You don't know me either. I've never pulled a gun when it wasn't warranted, and a bar fight doesn't warrent it. I'm sick of your prejudice because of my age. Seattle isn't always a friendly place at 2am. I'm done talking to you. I made a simple statement and all you've done is attack me and try to make me look like either a mall ninja or some 14 year old that plays too much halo. I'm done with it. Thank you for keeping the internet safe from anything that sets off your BS alarm because it hasn't happened to you.

 

[TallPine]

Quote:
But do you seriously suggest that the actions of "law enforcement" are always "the high road" merely because they are wearing a badge?

No, but conversely, do you always suggest the actions of law enforcement are always wrong because they are by virtue a government agent?

I never suggested anything of the kind. However, I will state that "no-knock" (or knock-knock-CRASH-BANG) raids are always wrong, except in extreme circumstances like a hostage situation or a known armed and dangerous criminal holed up somewhere.

For the record, yes I am pretty much anti-government and anti-authority, simply because in my five plus decades on this whirling dirtball I've observed that power and authority used more for evil than for good. But I don't fault individual LE officers as much as I do a system that is inevitably corrupt. I know and like a lot of our rural sheriff's and HP officers, or at least I have discovered no reason to have any animosity towards them. As far as I know, they are too busy helping accident victims and chasing stray animals off the hiway to be busting down anyone's door.

 

[javacodeman]

Chill out dude. It's not that serious. I've stopped taking EVERYTHING that the people say on this forum seriously a long time ago -- including the moderators. I'll be the first one to laugh at the types of people whom I find amusing (and I'm not going to identify those types, either). And that's not to say I'm closed-minded, but that I'm thoroughly convinced I'm right and that everyone else is wrong. And that's the end of that. I don't get offended, and I don't rant about it. In fact, I care so little, that I find myself shaking my head that I spent the minute or so to type this response THAT NO ONE WILL ACKNOWLEDGE.

lol internets

ACKNOWLEDGED

I was just re-reading this thread on my 4-hour shift the day after Thanksgiving. A couple of points:

1) I am fairly new here and I enjoy THR a lot. I've learned a lot as a new gun owner, and I've had my thoughts challenged which has led to me being more consistant in my ideology, more standard in my shooting practice, and more prepared if I have after to defend myself. I for one want to thank all of you for making a place on the internet so good and so informative.

2) Sometimes we do disagree with others and let even ourselves get out of hand when we are defending what we know to be "right." Here's one on me for example: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=233869. The mods were there (and rightly so) to close it up and tell us to cool off.

3) As for the "Us vs. Them" mentality: I think that it has to be there to an extent. A LEO never knows who is going to try to off him/her. LEO must always be vigilant and never let their guard down because the very nature of their work puts them at odds with the worst of our society. In fact, as a Naval Officer, this "Us (officers) vs. Them (enlisted)" mentality was indoctrinated to us. Most of us (officers) learn that the enlisted ranks (for the most part ) are not composed of stupid animals trying to stab you in the back. So the original indoctrination serves to help keep that speck of speration that is probably need between the two ranks. There are a good many officers, however, that never go through with this realization and treat the enlisted men/women under them as scum vermin till their last day. I think something similar must happen with the LEO community.

Just 2 more cents from me. If this thread stays around long enough, we may all have enough "2 cents" to go and buy some more ammo.

java