Threat of arrest for empty holster

[ozarkgunner]

people charged with the protection of others should not be given slack, or leeway. This is the problem. How would you feel if your life was being guarded by "rookies just getting their feet wet". Not comforting. Put them out beating the street to get some experience.
I'm a welding supervisor. We don't put new bee's out in the field wleding structural steel on high rises, school, etc. They are in the shop, learning, being taught, correct procedure, right, wrong, etc. Not until they have proven themselves without fault, do they get to go out to the field and put their skills to the test and people lives at risk, should they not perform well.
This should be the same with LE, who's job it is to judge who and what is safe, dangerous, etc.

 

[orionengnr]

^^^^
This.

They let me go with a warning, after telling me that they alone get to decide what a prohibited item is.

Yet another case of Barney Fife complex.

Just because I'm fed up with goverment abuse of power (and I'm a bit old and crotchety), I would be sure to wear my holster next time. Go ahead and arrest me--I want to hear the charges. I don't have a lawyer, but I'm thinking any law school graduate (and most paralegals) could find their way through this one blindfolded.

I believe certain college students attempting to hold "empty-holster" protests on campus have been threatened with Disturbing the Peace (because that was about as creative as the authorities could get), but I'd be willing to take that one on.

If I read between the lines correctly (I think you said something about handcuffs being part of your duty gear) I am guessing you may be an LEO...in which case I would do the same, with even more confidence of prevailing.

Tyrannical acts and tyrannical attitudes, whether large or small, should always be challenged, lest they grow bolder.

It's not like we're dealing with Uday and Qusay here. Yet.

 

[LRS_Ranger]

I always raise a few eyebrows when I wear my leather into my county courthouse, but I've never been hassled... I politely tell the officer that my firearm is in the car; I had one ask me why I carry a gun all the time. I asked her why she carried hers all the time. She just shrugged and went on to the next person.

 

[divemedic]

If I read between the lines correctly (I think you said something about handcuffs being part of your duty gear) I am guessing you may be an LEO..

Paramedic. I have handcuff keys because I frequently transport prisoners, and some of the cops here don't know what positional asphyxia is.

 

[janedoedad]

Sounds like the Deputies were trained by the TSA.

 

[evan price]

What I usually do in these situations is put my cell phone in my gun holster. It's a phone holster. They can go pound sand.

 

[Bovice]

That's stupid. Report that to their superiors. What in the hell can you do with an empty holster? If we're going to consider a piece of leather a prohibited item, then most wallets can't be carried into a courthouse either.

I have no problem with police officers. I do have a problem when they throw their weight around just for the hell of it.

I find it frightening how much authority is given to your average cop. They can arrest you for bogus stuff and put you through a nightmare, they can "Baker Act" someone (FL) with no real expertise in mental health... The list goes on. Not to mention that I'm not so confident in their abilities as protectors of society. It's a position that's rather easily gained and a breeding ground for monsters. If they're going to have these abilities to so greatly impact our personal lives, becoming a police officer needs to be on the same level as getting a college degree in terms of amount of time learning and training. Some of them have degrees, but it's certainly not a requirement. The police academy is a joke. I know a guy who just went through it and I don't think he could handle a squabble between two 5 year olds and an ice cream cone. He weighs about 120 pounds, soaking wet. It's a physically demanding job and if I were someone who was weak and was at the mercy of thugs who greatly outmuscled me, I'd want an officer who physically dominated on the scene. Nothing makes me chuckle more than to see those videos of LEOs getting into physical confrontations with people and losing miserably(not to mention this is FOOLISH if you're carrying a weapon within reach of the other person). We all know how reluctant they are to pull their weapons, so they use other skills if at all possible, and those skills are lacking. However, they're taught JUST enough to be a danger to themselves and the rest of us.

 

[Ky Larry]

Small minds + a little authority= danger to liberty.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

It's a position that's rather easily gained

Wrong. In my state there is an average of 150-200 applicants for every one open officer position.

If they're going to have these abilities to so greatly impact our personal lives, becoming a police officer needs to be on the same level as getting a college degree in terms of amount of time learning and training. Some of them have degrees, but it's certainly not a requirement.

Wrong. In many states, such as mine, a college degree is an unwaivable requirement to even be accepted to a police academy

The police academy is a joke.

Wrong. My police academy was 21 weeks long, 6 days a week, and 12-14 hours a day. And the physical requirements exceeded that of anything I've ever done in the military.

You sure do make a lot of baseless arguments.

 

[danprkr]

some statute on using language that was intended to provoke/incite an official, which IMO is a pretty scary law.

Pretty scary? Try terrifying.

From the comments I gather the thinking here is there are no good or essential civil servants? Same for police?

Easy to see why you would think we'd feel that way just reading this thread, but the reality is that mostly we realize that most public servants are fine people trying to do their job as well and professionally as possible. Like all occupations though you see the standouts either way. In this case we're looking at the sub par standouts so you get this impression that we think all of them are this way. At least in my case that is not the case. I am merely aware that the power hungry foolish bureaucrats exist, and don't take any guff from them. If they handle a situation in a professional courteous manner I may not agree with it. I may even fight for what I feel is right, but I won't take it out on the person on the line. I'll buck it up the chain of command as is proper.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I have worn this belt and holster into numerous courthouses all over central florida, and not once have they set off the magnetometer,

She then asked if I had a belt with a metal buckle, and I replied that it was brass and would not set off the metal detector. She said that I still had to remove it, because their detectors were sensitive. (I didn't bother to explain to her how a magnetometer works, but you would think they would have training on the limitations and capabilities of their equipment.)

It is interesting that you mentioned that your buckle was brass and would not set of a magnetometer given that magnetometers have been used to find old shipwrecks and have generated hits on individual brass cannons.

I know you introduced this unrelated facet (has nothing to do with the threat about the holster) as further documentation to portray the deputies as not being very swift, but I am afraid it has backfired and shows your own ignorance on the subject. In this case, the deputies know more about the equipment than you do. As noted above, metal detectors actually detect changes in the magnetic field generated by the detector. This includes both ferrous and nonferrous metals.

The deputy is correct about the sensitivity as well. It can be turned up or down (which may be by changing the power level or the frequency of the field, I believe most do the latter). So your brass buckle may not have affected some detectors in the past, but might have during your current visit.

I have managed to pass through detectors with my change, cell phone and keys at one airport only to have a dime set up the detector at another on the same day (pre 9/11).

 

[Sav .250]

I`m thinking, next time you should remove the holster before entering and avoid the grief.

 

[Hokkmike]

Shame on them for not doing their job! If the hoslter was a "prohibited item" and they let it go then they are not worthy of their hire and should be prosecuted and fired! Of course I realize that for you to have challenged them in that manner might have cause you further unecessary delay and harassment while they invented some other rediculous violation!

Sorry you had to endure that arrogance and stupidity......

 

[wishin]

The Deputies claimed that any item that can be used as a weapon or aid in the escape of a prisoner is prohibited. They claimed that they were the sole determinants of what could be used as a weapon.

You'd better wear a disguise the next time. They'll probably make you remove your shoelaces too!

 

[ForumSurfer]

If they're going to have these abilities to so greatly impact our personal lives, becoming a police officer needs to be on the same level as getting a college degree in terms of amount of time learning and training.

Are you willing to pay more local government taxes to cover higher pay grades? Or are we assuming LEO's will earn a 4 year degree and accept a $35,000 yearly salary?

Keep in mind that we entrust our safety to fine LEO's everywhere, yet our government sees fit to pay them bottom dollar. I have many LEO friends that do what they do out of a sense of duty and civic service. An ex-coworker comes to mind, who went from making 75-80 per year to 32 because he wanted to do public service. He carries out his duties with respect for all those he comes into contact with. For that, he gets spit on and treated badly. Most people seem to treat the good ones out there badly because it's as if everyone takes the bad apples and assumes that they are the status quo.

 

[dovedescending]

Any job field has good apples and bad apples. A police department about 35 minutes from here has the most professional, courteous, and intelligent officers I've ever met. They are in good shape, they are well trained, and they are very good at their jobs.

My own county's deputies are highschool dropouts with Barney Fife complex. They are overweight, insecure, and only remember how to shoot their weapons because POST requires them to requalify once a year.

 

[mbt2001]

America used to be:

UNLESS PROHIBITED, ALLOWED

now it is

UNLESS ENUMERATED, PROHIBITED

Welcome to the D.C. Jail, you might make it out of here, you might not...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soX00BnXCoo

 

[Officers'Wife]

The moment you were threatened with arrest you should have answered in that case let's wait for my attorney. Too many time the Roscoe's with a badge use arrest as a tool to abuse their authority. They need to be called on it. Even a special needs lawyer can get you reimbursed for your time and trouble.

 

[nitetrane98]

A lot of these scenarios fall under the "officer's discretion" category. Some have better discretion than others. You will never find any legislation that covers any possible security situation so it indeed boils down to a "it's our ball so we make the rules" attitude.
Many times a person like these will default to a "by god nothing gets in" and "because I said so" is a perfectly logical answer to the why not question.

If a supervisor is contacted, they will generally support their employee publicly and give a little discretion guidance in private. Sometimes the whole chain of command is ate up with the same mindset. Despite the wording, "common sense" is really not that common. Lower echelon employees are generally fearful of thinking for themselves. It's rarely encouraged in any military type organizational structure.

This was illustrated to me when I used to fly armed in prisoner transport. After declaring my weapon and going through the dog and pony show, I was asked if I had any sharp objects on my person. Somewhat incredulous, I asked the clerk if she understood that I had a loaded weapon on my hip. "Oh yeah, I understand, but we have to ask these questions."

 

[Officers'Wife]

Hi Nitetrain,

Lower echelon employees are generally fearful of thinking for themselves. It's rarely encouraged in any military type organizational structure.

Never been around Special Forces/ Elite Forces units I take it.

 

[Action_Can_Do]

Ragnar
Those are some pretty high requirements to become a police officer. I imagine Michigan must pay pretty well to make those demands. Where I live, not only do local police not need any degree, they needn't have gone to the police academy at all. I'm talking local police here. I believe the state police have higher standards.

 

[rmfnla]

The moment you were threatened with arrest you should have answered in that case let's wait for my attorney. Too many time the Roscoe's with a badge use arrest as a tool to abuse their authority. They need to be called on it. Even a special needs lawyer can get you reimbursed for your time and trouble.

I like this!

 

[easyg]

I would report them to their superiors.
If for no other reason than in the hopes that someone might be able to educate them on exactly what a prohibited item is.

 

[wojownik]

Regarding metal detectors, yes of course they can detect brass - ask any civil war buff...

Regarding the holster issue, I got hassled once by county cops in Maryland. I came home from the range, all my pistols nice a locked up in a case in my locked trunk. I just forgot to take my OWB holster off. Some deputy hassled me a bit, saying something about "showing intent" (there's virtually no such thing as public carry in MD).

In Virginia, I got hassled by a security guard at private business - they posted a no firearms sign, but asked me to leave because I had a holster.

 

[Deanimator]

I find it interesting that citizen gun owners constantly tell each other to use discretion and to not make everyone look bad, but time after time I see LEOs who DON'T use discretion and common sense and who end up making the rest of them look bad. Does nobody tell them that what they do affects the public perception of ALL LEOs?

I had a local cop try to justify his 100% incorrect statement of Ohio CCW and open carry law by announcing self-importantly, "I'm a cop!" All he really told me was that he was ignorant, immature and petulant about his own ignorance in the bargain. He definitely lowered my opinion of the local PD a few notches, where I'd previously had a relatively high opinion of them. I started carrying a voice recorder days later and am never without one now.