Three things not to do when shooting IDPA...

[MJ_ATL]

I'm sure everyone knows not to do these but after last night I need to vent...

First, if we yell FINGER!!! it means your finger is in the trigger guard or close to it when it shouldn't be - please straighten your index finger and rest it on the FRAME of your gun. On the trigger guard isn't any faster and it too close to the trigger for my comfort.

Second, please don't point your muzzle in any direction that may be construed as 'up range'. You're likely to (at a minimum) flag the SO and scorekeeper with your muzzle and we really don't like that. We'll yell MUZZLE as you get close to breaking the muzzle safe points but if you fail to correct yourself, expect a DQ for this. Go home think about what you did and come back next week.

Third, when you get done and need to remove your gear, even if you're in the safe area you STILL MUST LOOK DOWNRANGE and verify that nobody is downrange. :banghead: Not sure what to do with that one other than yelling at the individual but the range is contemplating banning any further violators permanently from the premises...

It was a rough night last night to be an SO and scorekeeper...

 

[waktasz]

One of the things that irks me about IDPA is that a finger in the trigger guard is not an instant DQ.

 

[ny32182]

Why would you put a safe area somewhere where people could get downrange of it?

 

[MJ_ATL]

Why would you put a safe area somewhere where people could get downrange of it?

The designated safe area at this range is a lane in one of the shooting bays and since we finish after the range closes, the employees will clean it while we shoot the stages after the last non-IDPA shooter has finished. Poor location choice or not, still not a valid excuse to handle a weapon with someone downrange.

 

[chhodge69]

I hear ya man - I've seen some really bad habits corrected on a regular basis by the SO's at my local match. But the only person to ever actually point their gun at me during a match WAS the SO:banghead: I guess anyone can get careless.

 

[Jim Watson]

I have been swept the last two matches at the local club.
I disqualified the first guy.
I was not SOing the second one and it was the last stage anyhow, but I reamed him out. I don't care if he comes back or not.

 

[MJ_ATL]

Its really the one of pointing a weapon downrange with people downrange that really got me (and others) hot... the others unfortunately happen and go with the territory. Just have to warn, coach, disqualify, and discuss them to train people out of certain bad habits.

 

[twofifty]

Does your IDPA group have a pre-match orientation session for new or novice shooters?

Say 5 minutes to demonstrate what uprange and downrange is, muzzle control, where the finger must stay until you are ready to shoot, how to use the safety table...

 

[Bobson]

What exactly is IDPA/ISPCA/random acronym?

Never spent any time in this subforum.

 

[twofifty]

IDPA - International Defensive Pistol Assn.
USPSA - US Practical Shooting Assn.
IPSC - Int'l Practical Shooting Confederation

These associations put on matches that involve shooting against the clock at multiple targets that are arrayed in various ways - these arrays are called 'stages'.

Since there are several different stages in a match, expect to spend the day at the range.

Since not all targets are visible from the start location, you will have to quickly reload and move to where you can see and engage the ones hidden behind barriers, walls and props. Some of the targets may be in motion. Some will be cardboard, some steel that you knock over. Sometimes you may choose to shoot on the move.

The person who shoots most accurately and moves most efficiently wins the stage.

Lots of videos on youtube.

edit - changed ass'n to confederation.

 

[mgmorden]

What exactly is IDPA/ISPCA/random acronym?

Never spent any time in this subforum.

IDPA - International Defensive Pistol Association. A pistol league that tends to attempt to imitate real life situations. Gear which is not suitable for everyday use (cleats, race-belts, holsters, optics on your gun, etc) is not allowed. Number of targets is fewer. Draws must be from concealment and cover must be used as available.

IPSC - International Practical Shooters Confederation. Another pistol league - less focus on real life situations on more on the sporting aspect. More open gear policies (though divisions are set aside for people with "normal" stuff), higher round counts per stage. Most stages may be fired "free form" - basically from wherever you can take shots. Lots of focus on stage planning and breakdown (ie, planning what order you'll shoot targets, where you'll reload, etc).

USPSA - United Stated Practical Shooting Association. This is the USA branch of IPSC. The rules are similar to IPSC but are separately codified and do contain a number of differences, but the core game style remains the same.

 

[Bobson]

Thanks, twofifty. Your answer made me think of another question, but I don't wanna hijack the thread.

 

[mgmorden]

twofifty beat me to it .

Anyways, as to the original post - not being that familiar with IDPA, some of it sounds a bit strange. While most RO's in USPSA seem to give a LITTLE wiggle-room on the finger-in-the-triggerguard issue, virtually everyone I know will throw an immediate DQ if you break the 180 by a hair.

As to the safe area, by my guess I'd say both parties are at fault there. The shooters should use common sense and check before pointing a gun up-range (safety is more important than blindly following a routine), but realistically the whole purpose of the safe area is that its supposed to be just that - a SAFE AREA. If it's facing an open lane with people walking to and fro then IMHO that doesn't really meet the definition of a safe area, and it should be moved accordingly.

 

[twofifty]

Finger and muzzle awareness are definitely where its at in the action shooting games.

From the start buzzer, competitors draw and rush about loaded and cocked while engaging targets scattered here and there on sometimes complicated stages.

There are mags to be changed and malfunctions to clear, all on the fly. Ports must be opened then shot through without sweeping yourself. Doors must be negotiated. The gun must sometimes be shifted to and fired by the weak hand only, then back to a normal grip, without being dropped.

Gun manipulation and position awareness in this fast-paced complex environment is very confusing to beginners who are used to a formal firing line on a square range. No wonder it takes awhile for trigger and muzzle awareness to become second nature.

Action sports would not have the superb safety record they enjoy without the IDPA SOs and USPSA/IPSC ROs who keep us safe - at added risk to themselves.

 

[PPGMD]

First, if we yell FINGER!!! it means your finger is in the trigger guard or close to it when it shouldn't be - please straighten your index finger and rest it on the FRAME of your gun. On the trigger guard isn't any faster and it too close to the trigger for my comfort.

Unless the rules have changed, it simply says that your finger must be outside the trigger guard, which reads as finger on the trigger guard as an allowed spot.

Third, when you get done and need to remove your gear, even if you're in the safe area you STILL MUST LOOK DOWNRANGE and verify that nobody is downrange. Not sure what to do with that one other than yelling at the individual but the range is contemplating banning any further violators permanently from the premises...

That is simply a bad place for a safe area, and needs to be addressed, rather then people kicked out. Every safe area I've used point directly at a safe direction where no one could be down range (ie pointing at a berm or wall).

 

[MJ_ATL]

Unless the rules have changed, it simply says that your finger must be outside the trigger guard, which reads as finger on the trigger guard as an allowed spot.).

Technically you are correct, there is no rule saying where it has to be other than off the trigger and outside of the trigger guard. IMHO it is safer to put it on the frame (and they way I was trained to do it) and that a perfectly straight finger on the frame removes any doubt that the finger is outside of the trigger guard. I've never seen anyone DQ'd for finger violations in IDPA. DQs normally come from poor muzzle discipline or shooting props or the ground too close to the shooter.

That is simply a bad place for a safe area, and needs to be addressed, rather then people kicked out. Every safe area I've used point directly at a safe direction where no one could be down range (ie pointing at a berm or wall).

The current safe area is the range's decision and is in the shooting bay used for other customers to shoot during business hours (this is an indoor range). I see the argument for moving it but like that it is in a shooting bay just in case they have an negligent discharge while gearing up.

There is still absolutely no excuse to handle a weapon with anyone downrange - takes less than a second to look and verify the area is clear of human life.

To be more clear, the safe area procedure is to enter the shooting stall, face the bullet trap (i.e. downrange), and gear up - granted this is done from the firing line at 25 yards from the trap. Normally, no one is downrange, nor should there be. This particular night an employee took advantage of the range not being in use to clean the bay, not expecting anyone to be exiting as we were 30+ minutes from being done.

I view this the same as using the public DNR range and having someone handling weapons while others are downrange setting up targets... last time I saw someone do that they almost got tarred and feathered.

@twofifty... yes there is a new shooter orientation ist about 30 minutes... everyone gets it and then a speach and then special attention when competing for the first couple of nights they shoot or until they get to be trusted. Some people just seem to get complacent or just don't absorb the material.

Anyway, this was me venting to get it off my chest... appreciate the suggestions.

 

[jmorris]

Not sure what to do with that one other than yelling at the individual but the range is contemplating banning any further violators permanently from the premises...

Who? The Einstein that is down range of an area where people are going to be handling firearms (the only area at that).

 

[MJ_ATL]

Who? The Einstein that is down range of an area where people are going to be handling firearms (the only area at that).

Further clarification... :banghead: the "Einstein" was downrange cleaning the shooting bay prior to the person who manipulated their weapon entering the bay. No one was expected to be walking out of the bay where we were competing at the time.

I don't seem to understand why we keep trying to blame the person who was downrange and supposed to be there at the time for the other person's disregard of basic safety rules.

 

[Hk Dan]

We were shooting at a new club's match once--these poor guys had no certified SOs and very little experience period. One of their shooters was an irrascible old fella with a USP 9mm and 2 mags. One of their stages required 3, so this guy emptied his mags, turned with the pistol levelled at the audience and walked back to the table to reload a mag...on the clock. Now, my buddy and I hit the deck. I told him "If he fires that thing, shoot back!"

I watched him reload a mag with 10 rounds, on the clock, walk back to cover, and finish the COF. The "SO" did/said nothing. So I did. I kept it simple, I said "Man, you scared the &^*& out of me back there--you can't do that. Point it down range, holster it, but for God's sake don't make me look down your bore while you walk back." He apologized profusely and didn't do it again.

 

[PPGMD]

Technically you are correct, there is no rule saying where it has to be other than off the trigger and outside of the trigger guard. IMHO it is safer to put it on the frame (and they way I was trained to do it) and that a perfectly straight finger on the frame removes any doubt that the finger is outside of the trigger guard.

I agree I keep my finger high up on the frame, but we aren't here to write our own rules. We simply are here to enforce the rules as they are written.

The current safe area is the range's decision and is in the shooting bay used for other customers to shoot during business hours (this is an indoor range). I see the argument for moving it but like that it is in a shooting bay just in case they have an negligent discharge while gearing up.

There is still absolutely no excuse to handle a weapon with anyone downrange - takes less than a second to look and verify the area is clear of human life.

To be more clear, the safe area procedure is to enter the shooting stall, face the bullet trap (i.e. downrange), and gear up - granted this is done from the firing line at 25 yards from the trap. Normally, no one is downrange, nor should there be. This particular night an employee took advantage of the range not being in use to clean the bay, not expecting anyone to be exiting as we were 30+ minutes from being done.

Again, this makes the safe area unusable while the match is going on. Which is among the reasons why it should be moved. The safe area isn't just for the beginning and end of the match.

What if someone is shooting CDP and their 1911 goes down (because they never fail), and they need to switch to their back up gun? The placement of the safe area would require everyone to clear out of the stage and go up range while the person does anything in the safe area. Is is a bad safe area placement and it needs to be corrected IMO.

I would get with the local club president, and the USPSA club president (if they are different) and mention that issue, and see about moving it to another area.

 

[MJ_ATL]

PPGMD, On the rules thing - agreed about how they are written and when in compliance with the letter no fouls given. Still going to issue warnings if that finger appears to be where it shouldn't be.

I think you're still not understanding where the safe area is... I agree that it probably could be moved to another area of the facility which would have avoided this one incident of shooter carelessness. However, it seems that you're arguing that the shooter wasn't at fault for not checking suroundings which is a violation of basic safety - I hope that isn't the case.

The range we are shooting at has more than 1 shooting bay. Bay #1 is actively in use by thier customers until close... Bay #2 is where we run the stages. A shooting stall in Bay #1 is the safe area. The safe area is not in the same bay that we shoot the stages in. It just happened that the range staff was trying to use the time when we were still shooting and nobody was using Bay #1 to get the nightly cleaning done.

 

[shenck]

This is why I don't

I have always wanted to shot IDPA, but I haven't done so just because of this. Some new guy wants to get into IDPA, so he gets a rule book. After he has read, and thinks he understands it, he then goes to a match. He does what he thinks is correct, but it's not the same way all the "old timers" do it. And he gets a bunch of crap about it. I've gone to watch matches but never competed, and I have noticed there isn't alot of tolerance for the "new guy". I'm sure I'm going to get replies like "not where I shoot" or "not at my club", But it's what I have witnessed. I'm not saying it's like that everywhere, My point is be tolerant and helpfull to the new guy. We can all benefit by having more people interested in the shooting sports.

 

[MJ_ATL]

I have always wanted to shot IDPA, but I haven't done so just because of this. Some new guy wants to get into IDPA, so he gets a rule book. After he has read, and thinks he understands it, he then goes to a match. He does what he thinks is correct, but it's not the same way all the "old timers" do it. And he gets a bunch of crap about it. I've gone to watch matches but never competed, and I have noticed there isn't alot of tolerance for the "new guy". I'm sure I'm going to get replies like "not where I shoot" or "not at my club", But it's what I have witnessed. I'm not saying it's like that everywhere, My point is be tolerant and helpfull to the new guy. We can all benefit by having more people interested in the shooting sports.

Shenck, I had the same reservations before starting and have found most everyone helpful and supporting. Like everything in life there are just some people that you just won't get along with. I see match directors take the time to explain why someone got a DQ and to coach them on how not to repeat it.

I apologize to all if anything I've said implies the old timers are beating on the new guys. Most that I know through this sport are tolerant, helpful, and want to see others do well... perhaps its different where you are. Have you looked at IDPA.com to find other local clubs than the one you had a bad time at?

BTW... the person who committed the offense of handling a weapon with people downrange) is not a new shooter and should know better. The other stuff was me venting and starting a conversation. Sometimes I'm just a bit too honest instead of sticking to being just truthful.

 

[1SOW]

re finger out of the trigger guard.

To me, resting the finger 'on' the trigger guard means it's across the trigger and too close during a run-and-gun situation. EXAMPLE: MY finger WON'T REACH the front of the trigger guard, so if it's across the trigger it's NOT a safe practice.

The RO has to make the determination necessary to maintain a safe shooting environment. I would fully expect the RO to either 'warn' or more likely DQ a shooter with this practice. The rules do give the RO decision making capability. The shooter can file an objection if he/she disagrees--good luck.

Our ranges are outdoors. I'm not familiar with indoor practices. At all our local ranges (5?), the SAFE AREAs are facing a berm within 2-3 yards. No one can be 'surprised' by having anyone show up "downrange' of the Safe Area. One of our ranges has only ONE safe area for the typical 5 stage match, so that makes it even easier to prevent unsafe practices.

 

[Jenrick]

The safety area has got to be moved. To be honest it's unreasonable to DQ people for not checking down range before they handle their gear, it's called a safe area for a reason. Do they need to do a complete walk through of the stage itself ahead of time to make sure someone is not hiding behind a popper? Move the safe area to the impact area of that range near the backstop and put a table or something there. A bit more walking, but no chance of someone getting on the wrong side of it.

-Jenrick