Time for a long gun as well as hand gun?

[stevekozak]

Not that I have a problem keeping a rifle in your vehicle if one wants to, but thinking one is doing so to take on terrorists is a bit far fetched. Delusional even.

And, as posters have mentioned, you run the risk of theft of any firearms left in a vehicle.

I put this thread in the realm of fantasy, but I apologize in advance to anyone who thinks I used to strong of a descriptor(s).

I think you used the wrong homonym...

 

[taliv]

i carry a rifle everywhere i go. rationale is no different than other people carrying a pistol.

 

[hso]

which shows that some people may not always think far enough ahead.

No, it shows that there are differing opinions and not the ad hom slight you offered to those that think the idea of putting a rifle in your car over some fantasy of fighting terrorists on U.S. soil, much less in your town. Vehicle break ins have been pointed out as a reason to avoid this notion. Friendly fire as a civilian brandishes a rifle is another. Overpenetration, if not outright misses, harming innocent bystanders yet another. Lack of training. Racial bias. Poor judgement and reactions. There are numerous logical reasons that such an idea is at best reckless with no realistic example of a good reason. Walter Mitty fantasies of daring do don't outweigh the reality of all the ways this concept is ill conceived.

 

[1911 guy]

Much of what can be said has already been said. Everyone will make a risk assessment based on their world view and previous experiences.

My own view is that people in general, regardless of gender, political leaning or ethnicity, are as civilized as they feel they can afford to be. When their comfort or survival is threatened, they get uncivilized. Doesn't matter what country or region of country.

Right now, I'd weigh the options and not carry a long gun in the car, as I have no means of really securing it. However, if things got as ugly here as they have in other places I've been, I'd ditch the handgun for the most part and begin carrying at least one long gun and a stack of ammo.

Here in America, we enjoy a level of comfort that most of the world does not and lots of charities for people to either turn to in need or exploit, as the individual situation may be. This keeps unrest relatively minor and localized. So the risk is less. Ratchet up the level of unrest and the benefit of having a long gun available begins to outweigh the cost of possible theft.

We're not there yet, in my opinion, but saying "It can never happen here" is foolish. I hope it never does, but to say it's impossible is to have a rose colored view of the world and human nature.

 

[Warp]

No, it shows that there are differing opinions and not the ad hom slight you offered to those that think the idea of putting a rifle in your car over some fantasy of fighting terrorists on U.S. soil, much less in your town. Vehicle break ins have been pointed out as a reason to avoid this notion. Friendly fire as a civilian brandishes a rifle is another. Overpenetration, if not outright misses, harming innocent bystanders yet another. Lack of training. Racial bias. Poor judgement and reactions. There are numerous logical reasons that such an idea is at best reckless with no realistic example of a good reason. Walter Mitty fantasies of daring do don't outweigh the reality of all the ways this concept is ill conceived.

A round such as 5.56 does not present a significant difference in over penetration risk compared to a round like 9x19.

Not everybody has a significant training difference between pistols and rifle, for some people 'lack of training' might be a reason to opt for a rifle instead of a pistol, no?

Firearms including rifes can be secured fairy well in vehicles.

Friendly fire is a risk with handguns also.

Racial bias, for those it applies to, is a risk with handguns also.

Poor judgment and reactions are a risk with handguns also.

Brandishing, as a legal term, has a specific meaning (for the states that use that term in their law), and I don't think anybody here is talking about brandishing anything. But even then, you can brandish a handgun if you reach for it every bit as much as you can a rifle.

We have one very well known and publicized example where private citizens with rifles in their car...on a college campus no less.

Outright misses are probably more of a concern for handguns than for rifle given how much more difficult it is to hit a target, all else equal, with a handgun vs a shoulder fired rifle.


The really strong logical reason that a rifle in the car probably won't ever help you is that it is very unlikely you will find yourself in a relevant situation. But then if you carry a gun at all you are already doing so in preparation for a very unlikely scenario.

IMO this comes down to the same old junk we see on gun forums (and in life in general) all the time:


Those who are less prepared than you are sheep/ignorant. Those who are more prepared than you are paranoid/wannabe heroes. Too man people seem to think that their specific level of preparation is THE correct one and everybody else is wrong.

That's why so many people would say that you, hso, are a walter mitty type fantasizing about playing Hollywood action thriller save the day hero because you carry a handgun.





Some people choose not to own any 'weapons' (defensive tools) at all. Some choose to own one and keep it only in their house. Some only in their house or their car. Some carry one on their person. Some carry a spare mag also. Some carry a backup gun. Some carry a rifle in their car. Some might carry body armour. Some might regularly wear body armour. We need to stop talking like the anti and we need to top proclaiming that somebody who prepares for more than us is some paranoid fantasizing nutcase.

 

[leadcounsel]

Friendly fire is a risk with handguns also.

Not really. What people are missing is the context of how these events occur.

They are, quite generally, localized events that occur - start to finish - rather quickly. If you're INVOLVED in the incident, meaning right there reacting and have a handgun, you're not likely to receive friendly fire because others involved will have a concept of what's going on. It's you versus the bad guy(s). Right there. Before anyone can or has been able to react/summon the police.

Presumably with a longgun in the vehicle, you need to LEAVE the incident to retrieve the rifle, then RETURN to the incident. Say that takes 3 minutes. Odds are that a lot happens in that 3 minutes. Within probably 60 seconds, reports of shots fired will be broadcast... so as you are getting to your vehicle, people are aware of shots fired. Cops are either en route or on the scene. Killer has probably killed everyone he intended to kill. You are viewed by everyone as a threat not a good guy with a gun, etc. etc. etc. Say you are running back to the scene, AR15 in hand, at minute number 2 of the incident. Now, police are arriving and see you running around with an AR15. I don't see a good ending to that scenario.

 

[Warp]

Not really.

Yes, really.

What people are missing is the context of how these events occur.

They are, quite generally, localized events that occur - start to finish - rather quickly. If you're INVOLVED in the incident, meaning right there reacting and have a handgun, you're not likely to receive friendly fire because others involved will have a concept of what's going on.

Presumably with a longgun in the vehicle, you need to LEAVE the incident to retrieve the rifle, then RETURN to the incident. Say that takes 3 minutes. Odds are that a lot happens in that 3 minutes. Within probably 60 seconds, reports of shots fired will be broadcast... so as you are getting to your vehicle, people are aware of shots fired. Cops are either en route or on the scene. Killer has probably killed everyone he intended to kill. You are viewed by everyone as a threat not a good guy with a gun, etc. etc. etc. Say you are running back to the scene, AR15 in hand, at minute number 2 of the incident. Now, police are arriving and see you running around with an AR15. I don't see a good ending to that scenario.

You are focusing on specifics that may or may not be present.

In GA I can have a gun in my car when I pick up or drop off a student from school, or from this or from that...take one location for example that I frequent, I am recognized at this location and I park 5-10 seconds-of-running from one of the doors.

3 minutes? Nope.

That is just an example.

And of course we have other examples in this thread of possible situations that arise in and around vehicles themselves, you wouldn't necessarily have to spend 3 minutes going to and from your car (and my vote for that situation, most of the time, is going to be to get to my car and drive the hell away anyway)

 

[TennJed]

I have considered carrying a rifle in my truck in case I run into bigfoot or an Alien. Seriously, I have a higher chance of needing it against a bigfoot or alien than a terrorist. It is not illegal to kill bigfoot or an alien in most places.

Think of all the bigfoot and alien sightings we have. If just one of them was carrying a AR15 then we would finally have proof instead of another un-provable sighting.

Think of how famous I would be. Also there is talk that black panthers are here in MS, but there is no proof. A few swamp monkey sightings. You need to always be prepared. A 9mm will not cut it in Swamp Monkey country

 

[Cee Zee]

In my state you can't carry a loaded long gun where you can access it from inside the vehicle even if you have a CCW. So my "long" gun is my S&W 629 with a 8 3/8" barrel. It has plenty of range and it's legal not to mention it will blow a hole front to back on a Buick Roadmaster and that includes going through the big V-8 under the hood. That may a bit of an exaggeration but it does pack a wallop.

 

[Mitlov]

If you want a long gun, buy a long gun.

But about the need you cite for one: remember that for the past couple decades, terrorism has killed about 500 Americans per year. Out of 300 million people. I'd worry a whole lot more about tweakers, gang members, traffic accidents (kills 50,000 Americans per year) or getting my cardio on (heart disease kills 250,000 Americans per year).

And even in terms of terrorism, most acts of terrorism on American soil couldn't be stopped by even the best-armed civilians. Truck bombs (first WTC attack; Oklahoma City); airplane hijacking (either for the people on the plane or in the buildings), etc. The tactics used in Paris are actually very, very rare for a terrorist attack.

 

[leadcounsel]

Or heck, if you wanted immediate passenger compartment access and have your CCW, you could get an AR pistol or AK pistol... keep it loaded right in your front seat! Take it in your backback with you!

 

[Ignition Override]

If it is legal and the gun doesn't cost much, then maybe it's an acceptable risk.
But if any friend, relative or in-law is somehow overheard discussing such storage of a rifle, that car will be a very 'hot' desirable target.

Several Federal agents parked their truck at a restaurant near an I-40 exit in Memphis.
Even though that truck was reported to be within view of the agent's table at Dennys (etc), it was broken into and the select-fire guns were stolen. They must have been tailed for quite a while. This was only a few miles from both the Shelby County and the federal prison near I-40.

Considering the nerve required to break into a truck belonging to Federal agents, how about the nerve to break into a car belonging to an ordinary citizen? Good luck.

 

[Cee Zee]

BTW those claiming that the chances of actually needing a long gun are essentially nil must be living in a different world than I am. Maybe I just lead a charmed life because I have most certainly seen times when a long gun would be a major asset in a vehicle on the road.

For example I apparently followed a car load of gangsters down the highway maybe 5 minutes behind them. They were driving extremely slow being extremely drunk and looking for trouble. When cars would pass them they would shoot at them. Some of them they chased and fired at multiple times from a distance. I came on the scene as they had just followed a car into a grocery store parking lot following a family with small kids. The people had apparently jumped out of their vehicle and ran inside the grocery store. By that time word had gotten to the LEO's who showed up about the same time I did and we both saw the gang bangers jump out of their car and head around the outside of the grocery store.

Had I been in that car with the family I most certainly would have wanted a gun with longer range than my Sig P220 I was carrying at the time. And if I happened on the scene at just the right time as they were heading around that building I might have found my car disabled in full view of the gangsters who might have continued shooting. Trust me I would have returned fire if I had my 629 in that situation.

Yes it was an extreme situation that night but it DID happen. There were countless stories of other people who had been shot at by that bunch apparently just a few minutes in front of me on that road. I'm talking less than 5 minutes difference in our times. I might well have found myself in that shooting situation.

So it "does" happen sometimes. It isn't common. I don't feel naked without a long range gun with me. But I did carry that 629 with me for a few months after that night. It wasn't the first time I felt like carrying a gun because of things that happened to me either. Sit through a couple of armed robberies where you find yourself the prime target for the badguys and see what that does for your attitude about guns. Have the moron next to you jump up and run out the door with SIX badguys robbing a McDonalds with you sitting inside. He didn't even know about bad guy #7 outside. I never felt so much like I wanted to stick to the bottom of a table like a piece of gum so much in my life and my future wife was with me at the time too. It really ticked me off that the moron put her life in jeopardy. The moron cops made out like the moron was a hero too. That really ticked me off. Yeah run out the door and leave me and my wife in the crossfire hero. If the cops hadn't been all over the place I swear I would have beat the snot out of that guy and I'm not generally a violent person.

Bad things do happen and sometimes you have no idea how they're going to go down. Give me the best possible equipment to respond. I'm not so paranoid that I still carry that 629 but sometimes I think I should be. Usually it's after I remember that night and talk about it. What I had passed them and they had shot my car and disabled it some way? I might be a sitting duck for gangsters with long guns shooting at me. Unlikely? Of course. Impossible? Heck no.

I know of other situations too. A guy shot someone on an ATV way back in the mountains just "to watch them die" as Johnny Cash would have sung it. I've been back in the mountains in a 4WD vehicle many, many times. Trust me I can envision times when a long gun could be a good idea. I've encountered more than one group of troublemakers with guns in the back country. Some also had bows. You're on your own out there and I'm not letting the bad guys scare me out of the woods. I can certainly see a time for a long gun being possible out there.

Then there's the back country farmers you might run into. One day I drove right through a giant pot patch so big I didn't even recognize it was pot. I'm talking stuff 20 foot tall. I was on an ATV following a trail someone had made. It was the growers who made that trail to their cash crop. Big danger there. It was on a gas line too which is a common way to travel where I live.

And what about people out west? Should they surrender their rights to travel public land because the coyotes are out there (not the kind with 4 legs)?

It is a dangerous world friends. Sometimes I think I really have led a charmed life because I've seen lots of things in this world from actual hobos that jumped off a train right in front of me and my dad (I was with him at work one night when I was about 10). Those guys can be seriously dangerous if they think you'll rat them out and dad worked for the railroad at the time. The armed robberies, the violent thugs who jumped me then jumped a state cop and threw him in front of a car going 55 a week later in the very same spot they jumped me. Then there's the packs of wild dogs you might run into out away from the pavement. I've dealt with those too. Say my truck got stuck right by where they lived? Say my truck broke down right in the middle of a place where bears were just waking up from hibernation (there's just such a cave no more than 2 miles from my house). I could point out stuff I've actually seen for hours here. Don't tell me this isn't a dangerous world. I'll introduce you to my neighbor who threatened to kill me because I wouldn't sign over access across our farm so he could develop a camp ground for drunks. He's the best shooter I've ever met. His farm is right next to mine. Yeah there's no reason to think I might need a long gun if I go out to my farm.

You guys must all live protected and sheltered lives is all I have to say. Again I could list situations like this for hours.

 

[leadcounsel]

For example I apparently followed a car load of gangsters down the highway maybe 5 minutes behind them. They were driving extremely slow being extremely drunk and looking for trouble. When cars would pass them they would shoot at them. Some of them they chased and fired at multiple times from a distance. I came on the scene as they had just followed a car into a grocery store parking lot following a family with small kids. The people had apparently jumped out of their vehicle and ran inside the grocery store. By that time word had gotten to the LEO's who showed up about the same time I did and we both saw the gang bangers jump out of their car and head around the outside of the grocery store.

Had I been in that car with the family I most certainly would have wanted a gun with longer range than my Sig P220 I was carrying at the time. And if I happened on the scene at just the right time as they were heading around that building I might have found my car disabled in full view of the gangsters who might have continued shooting. Trust me I would have returned fire if I had my 629 in that situation.

Yes it was an extreme situation that night but it DID happen. There were countless stories of other people who had been shot at by that bunch apparently just a few minutes in front of me on that road. I'm talking less than 5 minutes difference in our times. I might well have found myself in that shooting situation.

So it "does" happen sometimes. It isn't common. I don't feel naked without a long range gun with me. But I did carry that 629 with me for a few months after that night. It wasn't the first time I felt like carrying a gun because of things that happened to me either. Sit through a couple of armed robberies where you find yourself the prime target for the badguys and see what that does for your attitude about guns. Have the moron next to you jump up and run out the door with SIX badguys robbing a McDonalds with you sitting inside. He didn't even know about bad guy #7 outside. I never felt so much like I wanted to stick to the bottom of a table like a piece of gum so much in my life and my future wife was with me at the time too. It really ticked me off that the moron put her life in jeopardy. The moron cops made out like the moron was a hero too. That really ticked me off. Yeah run out the door and leave me and my wife in the crossfire hero. If the cops hadn't been all over the place I swear I would have beat the snot out of that guy and I'm not generally a violent person.

Yet NEITHER of these situations, having a rifle in your car, would have done ANY GOOD to you. The family that fled inside the store were smart. The best idea is to NOT BE THERE when rounds are flying. Had the dad stayed at the car to retrieve and load a rifle from the car, it's very likely he would have lost his opportunity window to flee to safety and been forced into a gun battle, several against himself... And a longgun is not available or practical to fire from a car... not as much as a handgun anyway. It's theoretically possible that had you beat the cops there, or if the family had a longgun, the could effectively repel the thugs. But that's all theoretical, and that's a real world example. A handgun would have done the family much more good, being immediately available and not locked in the trunk.

Sitting in McDonalds, do you think the robbers are going to let you leave to go get your rifle and come back?? Certainly not. So, totally useless.

 

[ku4hx]

Reloadron: Amen brother! SUV for my wife and a full size pickup truck for me. Those that buy sardine cans, and all their size challenges, are welcome to them.

 

[Thermactor]

Those that say that a pistol, any pistol, is insufficient for daily use - the pistol might prove to be very effective if you are a good shot with it and can use it effectively. I think that with enough training you'd find yourself comfortable with the right carry pistol and can make the shots you need in a justified self-defense situation without needing a rifle. And it's a lot less complicated to be proficient with one gun that you can carry on your person, than to try to use it for suppressive fire as you fight your way to your rifle. (I made a thread about this a little while ago, it had many great replies but got locked up by moderation - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=766289 )

 

[JR24]

I'm always too paranoid about someone stealing my gun to feel good leaving one in my truck full time, and a long gun is too much of a pain to drag in/out of the house every day.

That and if I'm in/near my truck and need to get into it for a long gun, I'm probably just driving away.

Also there is talk that black panthers are here in MS, but there is no proof.

We had that with a mountain lion in south-central WI years back. Then they found blood, then they found the cat. Now sightings are getting kinda boringly common.

 

[Warp]

If you want a long gun, buy a long gun.

But about the need you cite for one: remember that for the past couple decades, terrorism has killed about 500 Americans per year. Out of 300 million people. I'd worry a whole lot more about tweakers, gang members, traffic accidents (kills 50,000 Americans per year) or getting my cardio on (heart disease kills 250,000 Americans per year).

And even in terms of terrorism, most acts of terrorism on American soil couldn't be stopped by even the best-armed civilians. Truck bombs (first WTC attack; Oklahoma City); airplane hijacking (either for the people on the plane or in the buildings), etc. The tactics used in Paris are actually very, very rare for a terrorist attack.

It's a good thing that choosing to have a rifle in your car doesn't mean you can't do cardio, isn't it?

But if any friend, relative or in-law is somehow overheard discussing such storage of a rifle, that car will be a very 'hot' desirable target.

You need new friends, and new relatives and in-laws probably wouldn't hurt.

 

[Trent]

You need new friends, and new relatives and in-laws probably wouldn't hurt.

A farmhouse not far from where I live (< 10 miles) got hit by *5* armed intruders one night after the father went to work. That same group also hit an occupied house in town in broad daylight earlier that day, but only went in to the garage.

In both instances, they grabbed guns - and only guns - and were in and out.

The connection the police put together? The daughter of the house that was hit at night was bragging to friends about all the guns her dad and his friend had, not long before. One of those friends continued the chain to her boyfriend, which is how the story made it's way to a gang in Peoria IL.

You can only be certain of who YOU tell about things, but once you say something, who knows who is going to say what, to whom, or how far that story will travel?

Suggesting that someone "replace their relatives" is a ridiculous statement, BTW.

 

[we are not amused]

No point to tossing a long gun in most people's vehicles. The whole "terrorist" excuse is very very misguided in the face of the danger of becoming collateral damage with police response.

What he said!

I often carry a long gun in my pickup, usually a 10/22 or mini-14, but I live in a rural area, with plenty of opportunity for recreational shooting, ( and no, not road signs, sigh). I don't carry it for self defense, that is what the pistols are for. Only if the prairie dogs and rabbits turn vicious, would they be good for self defense.

While I am an advocate for armed self defense, the idea that you are going to get that "long gun" out of the trunk, or from behind the seat, and use it for self defense in a case of terrorism or a mass shooting, is silly, and dangerous.

If in the case of an mass shooting or terrorist event, the last thing I want to be doing is to be running around with a long rifle, wearing my tacticool vest, when the cops show up!

 

[we are not amused]

at 10 yds or so, on head-targets, or you'd not be claiming that the handgun is just as good. The rifle is superior to the pistol, by far, vs guys who are using cover, at a mere 5 yds, or vs fully exposed torsos at 15 yds, when it's for real. Without ear protection, handgun performance falls off much worse than does rifle performance. If I've got the time needed to dig out the rifle, I've also got the time to install my earplugs.

You also have time to get the heck out of there!

 

[Warp]

A farmhouse not far from where I live (< 10 miles) got hit by *5* armed intruders one night after the father went to work. That same group also hit an occupied house in town in broad daylight earlier that day, but only went in to the garage.

In both instances, they grabbed guns - and only guns - and were in and out.

The connection the police put together? The daughter of the house that was hit at night was bragging to friends about all the guns her dad and his friend had, not long before. One of those friends continued the chain to her boyfriend, which is how the story made it's way to a gang in Peoria IL.

You can only be certain of who YOU tell about things, but once you say something, who knows who is going to say what, to whom, or how far that story will travel?

Suggesting that someone "replace their relatives" is a ridiculous statement, BTW.

That is a good lesson for not letting kids know what you have unless and until they know better than to "brag" like that.

And the same goes for adults who have no concept of OPSEC (whether they know it by that term or not, most people seem to understanding that information like that has a certain degree of sensitivity to it)

 

[hso]

It may be reassuring to assume that level of control over your environment, but it just can't be ensured. Spouse or adult kids talk with supposedly trustworthy people about their mutual carry or sport shooting experiences and then that trustworthy shooting enthusiast talks at the table about how they met another nice family that shoots and their kid or spouse talks about..., but none of that is relevant to the original discussion about repelling terrorists on the I-40 or at the mall.

Random break-ins would be the most likely form of theft. That's weighed against the infinitesimally small risk of being able to engage terrorists.

None of us have any reasonable potential for getting into a fire fight with terrorists, but even if home grown ters hit the mall over-penetration and long range collateral damage are just some of the potential blood you'd have on your hands. Toss in the absence of training to amplify that risk. Sprinkle with responding LEOs confusing you for a ter and shooting you leaving your family abandoned and alone. There just doesn't appear to be any up side to this notion.

 

[Jeff White]

[Sarcasm mode]Why stop at simply putting a rifle in your vehicle? Isn't that just a half measure? A real wannabe operator/terrorist hunter wouldn't just put a rifle in the vehicle, he would procure full battle rattle and wear it all the time. One never knows when or where the terrorist will strike again and it's better to be prepared. Yes wearing 50 pounds of weapons, body armor and ammunition is uncomfortable and inconvenient and long term could lead to degenerative disk disease, but hey it's worth it if you feel like you're fighting the good fight against the terrorists...right?[/Sarcasm mode]

Seriously, everyone's circumstances are different. Everyone has to make his/her own decision on what measures they take. If you want to carry a rifle in your vehicle that's your business. Is carrying a rifle in your vehicle a good countermeasure against a potential terrorist attack? Probably not. Does the peace of mind you get from having it in the vehicle all the time outweigh the worry about losing the weapon in a vehicle break in? The only person who can answer that is you.

There is no right or wrong answer to this question, it's all a matter of personal choice. After 5 pages I don't see anyone convincing anyone else to change their opinion on the matter.

 

[Johnny_B_Goode]

If we had an imminent threat I would carry the Maverick88 8 shot model in the truck and the HiPoint 995TS in the car. Since we are not facing an imminent threat carrying a long gun on the seat would make my vehicles a target for break ins. Carrying a long gun in the tool box is safe, given no one knows it is there. But guns do get beat up in the toolbox. I broke the front sight on my HiPoint 995 Classic. HiPoint sent a new front sight, no questions asked.

Another issue I would run into here in NC is our concealed weapons laws. A conceal carry permit is for a pistol and a pistol only. A permit does not make it legal to conceal a long gun. Most officers do not enforce the no long guns concealed law unless you happen to use the long gun. Then even in the event of a clear cut case of self defense you would be facing a weapons charge. If you have no concealed carry permit it is likely you will be charged for the concealed long gun unless it is obvious you are hunting or participating in a sporting event.