Tips for CONSISTENCY when shooting a "Buffalo rifle" ?

[Chief TC]

IF you're running a 1:18 twist, the 405s are in the "lite" arena. 2MOA with store bought bullets really isn't bad. Are you using a wind flag?

You can try segregating your bullets into weight lots. Also, I never went as small as 3 shot groups, often I'd shoot 10, because that's a bank of animals and learning you're blow tube use an how a load reacts is just as important as MOA size.

Honestly, IMHO you're overthinking the barrel vibration thing. I competed with some very, very, good shots and none of them sweat that. It "briefs well" and sounds technical and all, but IMHO consistency is more important. It really is a big thick barrel. IF you're doing your load development from that rest spot, then it's incorporated in your load.. in theory. Guys used little crossed sticks that sat on their bench for load development.

Bench Cross Sticks AKA Bench Shooting Sticks

Custom Oak BPCR Bench Cross Sticks: Many shooters prefer to test their rifle's loads using bench cross sticks to replicate as close as possible the shooting position they use in competition. That is where bench rest shooting sticks come in! Using these shooting sticks eliminates a variable in...

www.buffaloarms.com

I have 3 BPCRs; Shiloh 74 in .45-100, Ballard R&C 1885 in .45-90 and Ballard R&C 1885 in .40-70Win and I got all of them to just sub MOA resting on the same approximate spot on the barrel. Just because that's where I like my sticks. IF the harmonics mattered that much, what are the odds??

It's not a smokeless HV cartridge, shooting technique is more important due to the dwell time and the lock time. Even if you're shooting smokeless at a little higher MV. We used to joke about how much harder it was to shoot a 74 well due to the massive side hammer torque, but in part it's true. Part of the reason why, the center hammers, then the striker fired (Borchardt), came to dominate the matches back in the 1800s.

There's no shortcut here, practice and you'll learn the rifle. A and AA shooters debated stuff like harmonics, and loads going transonic at the Turkey bank, etc. etc. etc. meanwhile the AAA and Master class guys just practiced a lot.

Get one of these:

.22 Adapter for .40 and .45 cal. rifles

This unit uses an ingenious shell holder adapter that holds the cartridge into the chamber of the liner. The shell holder then is struck by your rifles firing pin.

stores.leeshavergunsmithing.com

I had one, then finally had a custom Ballard R&C .22LR Low-Wall built to mimic my .45-90 and .40-70W.

Jim

Chuck T is giving you some really solid advice and has the experience to back it up. Learn from the folks that are describing how to do something based on what has worked for them and pass on the folks that live to be contrary and think they know it all.

 

[JimGnitecki]

IF you're running a 1:18 twist, the 405s are in the "lite" arena. 2MOA with store bought bullets really isn't bad. Are you using a wind flag?

You can try segregating your bullets into weight lots. Also, I never went as small as 3 shot groups, often I'd shoot 10, because that's a bank of animals and learning you're blow tube use an how a load reacts is just as important as MOA size.

Honestly, IMHO you're overthinking the barrel vibration thing. I competed with some very, very, good shots and none of them sweat that. It "briefs well" and sounds technical and all, but IMHO consistency is more important. It really is a big thick barrel. IF you're doing your load development from that rest spot, then it's incorporated in your load.. in theory. Guys used little crossed sticks that sat on their bench for load development.

Bench Cross Sticks AKA Bench Shooting Sticks

Custom Oak BPCR Bench Cross Sticks: Many shooters prefer to test their rifle's loads using bench cross sticks to replicate as close as possible the shooting position they use in competition. That is where bench rest shooting sticks come in! Using these shooting sticks eliminates a variable in...

www.buffaloarms.com

I have 3 BPCRs; Shiloh 74 in .45-100, Ballard R&C 1885 in .45-90 and Ballard R&C 1885 in .40-70Win and I got all of them to just sub MOA resting on the same approximate spot on the barrel. Just because that's where I like my sticks. IF the harmonics mattered that much, what are the odds??

It's not a smokeless HV cartridge, shooting technique is more important due to the dwell time and the lock time. Even if you're shooting smokeless at a little higher MV. We used to joke about how much harder it was to shoot a 74 well due to the massive side hammer torque, but in part it's true. Part of the reason why, the center hammers, then the striker fired (Borchardt), came to dominate the matches back in the 1800s.

There's no shortcut here, practice and you'll learn the rifle. A and AA shooters debated stuff like harmonics, and loads going transonic at the Turkey bank, etc. etc. etc. meanwhile the AAA and Master class guys just practiced a lot.

Get one of these:

.22 Adapter for .40 and .45 cal. rifles

This unit uses an ingenious shell holder adapter that holds the cartridge into the chamber of the liner. The shell holder then is struck by your rifles firing pin.

stores.leeshavergunsmithing.com

I had one, then finally had a custom Ballard R&C .22LR Low-Wall built to mimic my .45-90 and .40-70W.

To answer the wind flag question: No, not yet. For ladder testing I have been careful to only test on days with negligable wind. Right now, at my stage with this rifle, I need to eliminate any variables I can!

Yes, I will practice with different barrel support points and different positions & holds.

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

That is where my suggestion in #9 was headed. if the firearm is incapable of producing satisfactory results by itself, adding a human probably isn’t going to make it all better.

There are lots of variables getting rid of as many as you can makes it easier to see the effects as you bring them back into the picture 1 at a time, to see the results each have.

I have had firearms shoot better than I can aim them myself (at least with existing sighting system). Let’s me know what they can do and what I need to work on…

View attachment 1164149View attachment 1164150

jmorris, I don't have a Ransom rest nor even a sled. But, I would be concerned about using a sled with a heavy recoiling caliber like 45-70, and especially with what that heavy recoil, without any absorption at all going on, might do to the external scope mounting and adjustment system. This specific scope adjustment and mounting system DOES allow the scope tube to "slide" along the barrel axis during recoil. Actually, more accurately, it allows the rifle to move rearward while the scope tube "stays where it was before firing". I would be concerned about what handling that kind of recoil (Power Factor of 540 with 405g bullets and potentially more with 500g bullets! ) might do to the 2 lb scope tube and the front and rear mounting systems.

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

I really like the idea of using a "benchtop" stick setup. That at least "simulates" close to what the rifle will be like when shooting outside of a bench environment. I know that most stick sets are adjustable, and of course the shooter has to "manage them" so that they stay vertical versus falling over. But for simulation purposes 2 boards screwed together lengthwise at 90 degrees to each other, with one board flat on the benchtop and the other board vertical to the benchtop, with a vinyl-padded V notch cut into the center of the vertical board, would create a similar, but much more stable front rest for the barrel, and the stability, while not mimicking field use, IS better for testing ammunition. So, I'll build one of these before my next range session!

Jim G

 

[jmorris]

jmorris, I don't have a Ransom rest nor even a sled. But, I would be concerned about using a sled with a heavy recoiling caliber like 45-70, and especially with what that heavy recoil, without any absorption at all going on, might do to the external scope mounting and adjustment system. This specific scope adjustment and mounting system DOES allow the scope tube to "slide" along the barrel axis during recoil. Actually, more accurately, it allows the rifle to move rearward while the scope tube "stays where it was before firing". I would be concerned about what handling that kind of recoil (Power Factor of 540 with 405g bullets and potentially more with 500g bullets! ) might do to the 2 lb scope tube and the front and rear mounting systems.

Jim G

If I thought retarding the recoil of a rifle for testing, by adding mass it has to work against, would damage a scope, I would put a different scope on for the testing. Not like I would expect the exact POA/POI, I just want to see what the firearm can do without a human messing things up.

Not unlike the last 3 shots here confirming zero.



If it remains unsatisfactory, its probably not going to get leaps and bounds better with a human in control, especially if the human knows, it’s going to abuse them as they pull the trigger.

 

[JimGnitecki]

If I thought retarding the recoil of a rifle for testing, by adding mass it has to work against, would damage a scope, I would put a different scope on for the testing. Not like I would expect the exact POA/POI, I just want to see what the firearm can do without a human messing things up.

Not unlike the last 3 shots here confirming zero.



If it remains unsatisfactory, its probably not going to get leaps and bounds better with a human in control, especially if the human knows, it’s going to abuse them as they pull the trigger.

On a replica of an 1870s rifle, there are no provisions for mounting ANY other scope!

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

I really paid attention to the advice that a number of you have given me above, and as a result, I HAVE gotten GREAT improvements!

This morning, I took to the range 34 cartridges that I loaded for a ladder test in my Pedersoli Sharps .45-70 replica, using the 485g powder coated bullets that I created during my first ever bullet casting session on Monday. As I describe din another thread, those powder coated bullets REALLY performed despite some obvious flaws that I need to correct. But by applying some of the advice given me above, I was able to get some truly great results!

My best 3-shot group at 100 yards was 0.50 inch. My WORST group was 1.25 inch! This is obviosuly FAR better than what I wash shooting before.

Here is what I did:

I moved the Caldwell Rock Junior rest forward until it was cradling the barrel only about 6 or 7 inches from the muzzle of the 30" barrel. This made the "wheelbase' of the hold on the rifle (the Caldwell Rock Jr at the front, my shoulder and cheek at the rear) much longer than before, and therefor reduced the rifle's ability to move during firing.

I kept my left hand away from the foregrip and receiver, and used it only at the REAR of the rifle, as an aid in making fine adjustments to the rifle when perfecting the sight picture.

My right arm did all the real work, holding the stock of the rifle so as to keep the scope crosshairs on point of aim, and pushing the stock fairly aggressively into just the right place in my shoulder and against my cheek, to limit strongly any rifle movement during recoil. I was nevertheless relaxed enough to have a completely static sight picture (no trembling) thanks to my very low heart rate.

This posture resulted in a very firm and stable but still relaxed hold on the rifle.

I used the Caldwell Rock Jr to set the rifle's elevation on target, and then simply "fine tuned" at the rear of the rifle before releasing the forward hair trigger.

I used a custom printed target that made it easier for me to get a more "exact" sight picture in the scope, and I deliberately set the POI to be low so that bullet holes would not disfigure my point of aim (the center dot in the target in the photo).



The combination of these changes, coupled with the DIY cast powder coated bullets, got me into the accuracy rnage I wanted to get into. Now, what I need to do to improve on these results is:

- Make better cast bullets and coat them with a thinner powder coat (my first attempt at powder coating produced too thick a coating that created irregularities in the bases of some of the bullets)

- Continue to refine my hold and posture, building on the above

- start moving to longer range shots, incrementally, until I can shoot decently at the 600 yard range at our local facility (This requires receiving the spotting scope that my friend from another province will deliver to me within 10 days or so)

Improvements have begun!

Thanks for all the help, guys!

Jim G

 

[Chief TC]

I really paid attention to the advice that a number of you have given me above, and as a result, I HAVE gotten GREAT improvements!

This morning, I took to the range 34 cartridges that I loaded for a ladder test in my Pedersoli Sharps .45-70 replica, using the 485g powder coated bullets that I created during my first ever bullet casting session on Monday. As I describe din another thread, those powder coated bullets REALLY performed despite some obvious flaws that I need to correct. But by applying some of the advice given me above, I was able to get some truly great results!

My best 3-shot group at 100 yards was 0.50 inch. My WORST group was 1.25 inch! This is obviosuly FAR better than what I wash shooting before.

Here is what I did:

I moved the Caldwell Rock Junior rest forward until it was cradling the barrel only about 6 or 7 inches from the muzzle of the 30" barrel. This made the "wheelbase' of the hold on the rifle (the Caldwell Rock Jr at the front, my shoulder and cheek at the rear) much longer than before, and therefor reduced the rifle's ability to move during firing.

I kept my left hand away from the foregrip and receiver, and used it only at the REAR of the rifle, as an aid in making fine adjustments to the rifle when perfecting the sight picture.

My right arm did all the real work, holding the stock of the rifle so as to keep the scope crosshairs on point of aim, and pushing the stock fairly aggressively into just the right place in my shoulder and against my cheek, to limit strongly any rifle movement during recoil. I was nevertheless relaxed enough to have a completely static sight picture (no trembling) thanks to my very low heart rate.

This posture resulted in a very firm and stable but still relaxed hold on the rifle.

I used the Caldwell Rock Jr to set the rifle's elevation on target, and then simply "fine tuned" at the rear of the rifle before releasing the forward hair trigger.

I used a custom printed target that made it easier for me to get a more "exact" sight picture in the scope, and I deliberately set the POI to be low so that bullet holes would not disfigure my point of aim (the center dot in the target in the photo).

View attachment 1164746

The combination of these changes, coupled with the DIY cast powder coated bullets, got me into the accuracy rnage I wanted to get into. Now, what I need to do to improve on these results is:

- Make better cast bullets and coat them with a thinner powder coat (my first attempt at powder coating produced too thick a coating that created irregularities in the bases of some of the bullets)

- Continue to refine my hold and posture, building on the above

- start moving to longer range shots, incrementally, until I can shoot decently at the 600 yard range at our local facility (This requires receiving the spotting scope that my friend from another province will deliver to me within 10 days or so)

Improvements have begun!

Thanks for all the help, guys!

Jim G

Awesome. Just takes time and practice with trying various things. I’m not a fan of 405s, so I think the heavier bullets is part of the facto.