Tips for CONSISTENCY when shooting a "Buffalo rifle" ?

[JimGnitecki]

I am trying to learn how to shoot my Pedersoli .45-70 Sharps replica rifle with CONSISTENCY, and am having a bit of trouble.

I am shooting 405g RNFP commercially cast bullets, powered by 25.5g of 5744 ("middle of the load table" load), with a muzzle velocity of 1330 fps. This was determined via ladder testing to-date to be the apparent 405g bullet combination this rifle likes. I am mentioning that the rifle is also "scoped" via a semi-authentic full barrel length 6x scope from Leatherwood Hi-Lux that is excellently bright, so my sight picture is unaffected by an inherited degree of macular degeneration at my age. Because I am doing ladder testing, I am also shooting from the (concrete) bench with a Caldwell Rock Junior bag/tripod under the 1" diameter barrel, immediately in front of (not touching) the for-end of the stock.

I intend to end up shooting at up to 600 yards, and with 485 and 500g bullets, but am testing via firing 3-shot groups at 100 yards, and with this load, in the short term because:
- I am not yet quite set up for casting the 485 and 500g bullets needed for longer ranges up to 600 yards
- I don't yet have the sighting scope I need to see bullet holes at longer ranges (scope should arrive mid-August). With the combination of my binoculars and the rifle scope, 100 yards is the limit for seeing the bullet holes.

I am getting inconsistent results.

Sometimes, 2 of the 3 shots will be either within 1/2" or almost on top of each other, with a 3rd shot stretching the group to 3/4" or 7/8". Sometimes, the 3-shot groups are 1.5". But most of the time the 3-shot groups range around 2" to 2/14".

My handloads are all pretty consistent: cases trimmed to same length within .002", bullet weight / diameter / length all consistently tight, COAL consistent to within .0025" even with cast bullets, all cartridges "crimped" back to "zero" crimp via Lee Factory Crimp Die after bullet seating (since this is a single shot rifle), etc.

I also shoot my other rifle, a modern 6.5 Creedmoor with high power scope, with an average attained 3-shot grouping of 0.25 MOA at 300 yards when I do my part, which seems to be much of the time with that rifle.

So, I am thinking the problem is my position and/or hold on the Pedersoli buffalo rifle.

I have noticed that the 45-70 Pedersoli kicks a LOT harder on recoil than the modern 6.5 Creedmoor does with its muzzle brake and MDT XRS chassis. I'm needing to use TWO recoil reducers with the Pedersoli - I have a leather buttstock with enclosed foam on the Pedersoli, AND use a Past shoulder-mounted recoil pad. Here is a photo of the rifle showing its geometry:



For comparison, here is my other, "modern", rifle:



Note how low the buttstock on the Pedersoli is compared to the modern rifle. I notice that I can get my face low enough for a proper sight picture through the scope on the Pedersoli a LOT easier than I can on the modern rifle. My best buddy has pointed out that the butt stock on the Pedersoli IS a lot lower relative to the rifle bore than the stock on the modern rifle. And, I do see a lot more rifle movement during the shot from the Pedersoli than I experience with the modern rifle.

I recall that controlling the rifle movement during the shot was key for me to attaining the 0.25 MOA groups with the modern rifle, and so the much larger movement of the Pedersoli makes me suspect that this might be the cause of the problem with the Pedersoli group sizes and their inconsistency. I'm obviously doing something different from shot to shot, even though I am TRYING to be consistent.

I know some of you will say I am unintentionally increasing the recoil effects of the 45-70 loads by shooting from a bench, but how can you do accurate ladder testing any other way? Well, maybe via shooting from prone, but that would make the recoil effects on my shoulder much worse, and thus invite flinching. A Power Factor of 405g x 1330 fps /1000 = 539 is pretty tough on a shoulder.

I know at least some of you will suggest changing over to black powder, since that gives a more "spread out over time" recoil impulse, which would probably help, but I don't want to shoot "Holy Grail" black powder for various sinful reasons.

Those of you who have experience shooting "buffalo" rifles (Sharps and Rolling Block replicas basically, with either smokeless or black powder: Can you offer some pointers on how to best position myself with the rifle, and how best to hold it for best accuracy results?

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

Here's a photo of the best target me and the rifle have produced in ladder testing to-date:



I use the bottom point of the black triangle as my POA, but deliberately set the scope for POI that is AWAY from the POA, so that I don't desroy the POA with bullet holes.

The shot at +2.5" horizontal and +2" vertical was an earlier sighter.

Yes, i made elevation and windage changes between groups 1,2, and 3, but I should point out that there is additional evidence that the problem is my positioning and/or hold: I get changes in POI even when I am NOT adjusting the wimdage or elevation. So clearly, the problem is ME.

I'd be happy if I could produce targets like this one CONSISTENTLY, and with FIVE shots in each group.

Jim G

 

[dieselchief]

shoot it at 300, you may find that groups do not atomatically open up at the various ranges. fwiw i was banging away with mine at 600 this last sunday. peep sight and a load of 23 gr 5744 behind a 500 gr round nose.

 

[JimGnitecki]

shoot it at 300, you may find that groups do not atomatically open up at the various ranges. fwiw i was banging away with mine at 600 this last sunday. peep sight and a load of 23 gr 5744 behind a 500 gr round nose.

Yes, dieselchief, that 500g load sounds right. Once I have both (a) my spotting scope and (b) the items I still need for casting those 485g and 500g bullets, I WILL try shooting at longer ranges and see what happens! Right now, if I had to walk down and back to a 300 yard target for each shot during a 40-round session, that would be 300 x 2 x 40 = 24,000 yards = 13.6 MILES of walking!! Even at my 4 mph walking pace, that would take almost 3.5 hours! The combination of my 3/4 hour each way commute to the range, and my wife's time limitations, makes that impossible!

I had to burn off the preservative from my Lyman furnace today while my wife was out, so she would not see the smoke it produced in the back yard!

Jim G

 

[d2wing]

I am not an expert but a couple factors mean that barrel movement, especially rise, is greater on a traditional Black power rifle than a modern rifle. That means that consistency is very important and accuracy is tougher. Good luck.

 

[Chief TC]

You are just starting out with this rifle, so I don't think you can diagnose and solve everything you are bringing up just yet. You state you are quite capable with another rifle and a scope, so you know the mechanics of sub-moa shooting. You have 3 groups under 2 moa, at 100 with a scope. The rifle is capable of better than that but I believe you need to develop better loads. You are using 405s in only 1 diameter, correct? If so, you have a lot more to try and you have quite a range to try with 5744. You are at 1330, but many people shoot amazingly at much lower speeds and some people use 5744 at around 1500fps. I think you will find heavier bullets around 1200 and probably bigger diameter bullets will really dial in the Pedersoli.

A couple of things come to mind with the Pedersoli in terms of firing mechanics:
- if the stock comb is too low, then you can get an Accu-riser cheek rest for a more natural position
- be sure the barrel is on your bag or sticks in the sweet spot to limit bounce and bad harmonics
- you are using a scope, so any chance it is jostled out of position slightly?
- scope picking up mirage from heat?

Solid and square shoulder contact is very important. This was my last technique to resolve. At 100 yds ( this becomes a bigger issue when targets are further away), you should have no issue achieving this with benchrest or off sticks. Sometime people need a higher or lower chair/stool, to get level with the rifle. Try to be in a position to get your non-firing hand under the stock and elbow on the table if benchrest of your knee if it is sticks.

 

[JimGnitecki]

You are just starting out with this rifle, so I don't think you can diagnose and solve everything you are bringing up just yet. You state you are quite capable with another rifle and a scope, so you know the mechanics of sub-moa shooting. You have 3 groups under 2 moa, at 100 with a scope. The rifle is capable of better than that but I believe you need to develop better loads. You are using 405s in only 1 diameter, correct? If so, you have a lot more to try and you have quite a range to try with 5744. You are at 1330, but many people shoot amazingly at much lower speeds and some people use 5744 at around 1500fps. I think you will find heavier bullets around 1200 and probably bigger diameter bullets will really dial in the Pedersoli.

A couple of things come to mind with the Pedersoli in terms of firing mechanics:
- if the stock comb is too low, then you can get an Accu-riser cheek rest for a more natural position
- be sure the barrel is on your bag or sticks in the sweet spot to limit bounce and bad harmonics
- you are using a scope, so any chance it is jostled out of position slightly?
- scope picking up mirage from heat?

Solid and square shoulder contact is very important. This was my last technique to resolve. At 100 yds ( this becomes a bigger issue when targets are further away), you should have no issue achieving this with benchrest or off sticks. Sometime people need a higher or lower chair/stool, to get level with the rifle. Try to be in a position to get your non-firing hand under the stock and elbow on the table if benchrest of your knee if it is sticks.

Thank-you, Chief TC! Responding to some of your comments and advice:

- The rifle's barrel has been slugged as .4563". I understand this is maybe untypically small for a Pedersoli barrel, but the slugging was done by an experienced gunsmith. Both of the commercial bullets I have shot to-date average well over .458", close in fact to .459". So, about .0025" larger than the groove depth, which SHOULD be pretty ideal.

- Yes, I agree there is room for more experimentation on the grains of 5744 powder. But at least so far, the rifle has shown both best statistics (SD and ES) and best accuracy with 25.5g.

-However, a friend who casts his own 500g bullets gave me 13 of those, with which I loaded up 4 different loads of 3 bullets each, and one of the loads, near the bottom of the load table and under 1100 fps fired its group giving a sub-inch 3-shot group first time out! So, I am looking forward to (soon) casting my own 485g and 500g bullets and seeing what the rifle can do with those! Those will also be powder coated with Eastwood Gloss Black, and I have a Lee sizer with both .459" and .460" inserts!

- I actually LIKE the lower drop on the stock - I find it very easy to getbwhat feels like a very natural position. But, that large drop makes it easier for the rifle to flip upward on recoil, and I THINK that it is that too-large and uncontrolled movement during firing that is expanding my groups, and the heavy recoil is hurting my attempts to control it. I need to improve my position and hold somehow to enable reducing that movement of the rifle as much as possible.

- I had the gunsmith make a custom rear scope mounting plate because the factory dovetail from the Pedersoli factor was WAY oversize to hold the Hi-Lux mount plate firmly enough. The custom mount appears to be 100% solid so far (after about 78 shots fired so far with it).

- I do my shooting very early in the morning to have the range completely to myself, and there is zero mirage.

- Your "sweet spot" comment is VERY appropriate. Someone suggested using the "Baby Powder" process where you spinkle the baby powder onto the barrel, fire the rifle freehand, and look for the pattern. But that does not work with the full barrel length scope mounted on the rifle, because you can't sprinkle the barrel effectively with a full barrel length scope! And removing the scope to do the test is futile because the barrel harmonics are going to be very different with 2 lb of scope added to the barrel.

I have never fired a rifle using cross-sticks, and even with the Caldwell Rock Junior, I really have no idea where along the barrel is the "best" place to position EITHER cross-sticks or the Rock Jr. Is finding the best position simply by trial and error the best solution?

On placement of the non-firing hand: With the modern rifle, I DO get my non-firing hand under the stock. But with the Pedersoli, that really magnifies the rifle movement during recoil, so I have been keeping my non-firing hand holding onto the wood forend, to reduce that rifle movement during firing. Is that a mistake?

Jim G

 

[Chief TC]

Thank-you, Chief TC! Responding to some of your comments and advice:

- The rifle's barrel has been slugged as .4563". I understand this is maybe untypically small for a Pedersoli barrel, but the slugging was done by an experienced gunsmith. Both of the commercial bullets I have shot to-date average well over .458", close in fact to .459". So, about .0025" larger than the groove depth, which SHOULD be pretty ideal.

- Yes, I agree there is room for more experimentation on the grains of 5744 powder. But at least so far, the rifle has shown both best statistics (SD and ES) and best accuracy with 25.5g.

-However, a friend who casts his own 500g bullets gave me 13 of those, with which I loaded up 4 different loads of 3 bullets each, and one of the loads, near the bottom of the load table and under 1100 fps fired its group giving a sub-inch 3-shot group first time out! So, I am looking forward to (soon) casting my own 485g and 500g bullets and seeing what the rifle can do with those! Those will also be powder coated with Eastwood Gloss Black, and I have a Lee sizer with both .459" and .460" inserts!

- I actually LIKE the lower drop on the stock - I find it very easy to getbwhat feels like a very natural position. But, that large drop makes it easier for the rifle to flip upward on recoil, and I THINK that it is that too-large and uncontrolled movement during firing that is expanding my groups, and the heavy recoil is hurting my attempts to control it. I need to improve my position and hold somehow to enable reducing that movement of the rifle as much as possible.

- I had the gunsmith make a custom rear scope mounting plate because the factory dovetail from the Pedersoli factor was WAY oversize to hold the Hi-Lux mount plate firmly enough. The custom mount appears to be 100% solid so far (after about 78 shots fired so far with it).

- I do my shooting very early in the morning to have the range completely to myself, and there is zero mirage.

- Your "sweet spot" comment is VERY appropriate. Someone suggested using the "Baby Powder" process where you spinkle the baby powder onto the barrel, fire the rifle freehand, and look for the pattern. But that does not work with the full barrel length scope mounted on the rifle, because you can't sprinkle the barrel effectively with a full barrel length scope! And removing the scope to do the test is futile because the barrel harmonics are going to be very different with 2 lb of scope added to the barrel.

I have never fired a rifle using cross-sticks, and even with the Caldwell Rock Junior, I really have no idea where along the barrel is the "best" place to position EITHER cross-sticks or the Rock Jr. Is finding the best position simply by trial and error the best solution?

On placement of the non-firing hand: With the modern rifle, I DO get my non-firing hand under the stock. But with the Pedersoli, that really magnifies the rifle movement during recoil, so I have been keeping my non-firing hand holding onto the wood forend, to reduce that rifle movement during firing. Is that a mistake?

Jim G

You can determine the sweet spot by taking a wooden dowel or rubber mallet and knocking down the barrel. You eventually will hit the spot that does not vibrate or make noise. You can do this with the scope on. Some people put a piece of tape to mark it and then they ensure they rest it exactly in the middle of what is supporting the barrel.

Yes, I think your non-firing hand is a problem if you are shooting benchrest or off sticks. I think the general consensus is you need to properly position and support the rear of the rifle creating a good stock/shoulder weld. I have had convos with Lee Shaver (American international champion) and repeated technique controlling the butt stock during recoil is vital. Almost every time I screw up a shot it has to do with not paying attention to this. Also, my understanding is to let the rifle recoil naturally but have a solid backstop (your shoulder).

Personally, I think your groups will improve as you experiment with different loads, sizes, weights. You already have a solid knowledge and experience in proper shooting technique. And I have made loads that perform well at 100 but not so much at long range. My long range load for my Trapdoor is not impressive at 100 but amazing at 500.

 

[jmorris]

If I have trouble being consistent, I generally try and remove myself.

 

[Varminterror]

Chasing GROUP SIZES with observations made on 3-5 shot groups as a method of load development is a road to ruin.

 

[Chief TC]

I think there are a ton of folks that do this. If you have several 3-5 shot groups to evaluate and they are all demonstrating the same result, then that is a reliable result to diagnose. Now if one is using only one 3-5 inch group, then I agree. However, based on the OP, he has shot several.

 

[murf]

stop crimping the bullets.

luck,

murf

 

[JimGnitecki]

stop crimping the bullets.

luck,

murf

The bullets are not being "crimped" I am ONLY removing the "bell" created by the expander die, which is needed to be able to insert the cast lead bullet without shaving it. The bell is only abut .010". I remove it completely but do not "crimp" beyond simply removing it so that the finished cartridge successfully inserts into the cartridge gage. I have tried not removing the bell, and that does not work - the finished cartridge will then fail to insert fully into the cartridge gage.

 

[JimGnitecki]

I think there are a ton of folks that do this. If you have several 3-5 shot groups to evaluate and they are all demonstrating the same result, then that is a reliable result to diagnose. Now if one is using only one 3-5 inch group, then I agree. However, based on the OP, he has shot several.

Yes, I have fired at least 20 3-shot groups in testing and my comments are based upon this reliably recurring pattern.

 

[JimGnitecki]

If I have trouble being consistent, I generally try and remove myself.

I agree that using a "sled" that fully restricts the rifle does remove the "me" factor from the testing. BUT, it IS the "me" factor that I am trying to diagnose and solve here. The fact that many of the groups exhibit at least 2 of the holes overlapping tells me that the handload is a good one (and by the way, most buffalo rifles shooters do agree that 5744 in this grains range IS typically a great load with this type of rifle).

I think Chief TC is probably right about the hold on the stock being ultra important on this rifle, and he may well also be correct about the long range group size not being a predictably magnified size based on MOA calculation.

I'm going to also try finding that barrel node via the tapping and marking-via-tape method Chief TC suggested. That COULD turn out to be a very important factor, and it COULD affect the handload as well, as it alters the barrel harmonics and thus presumably also the node point(s).'

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

I tried finding a barrel node via tapping the barrel with first a 1" diameter wood dowel, and then using a plastic tip on my punch hammer. I tried both with different levels of force. I cannot for the life of me detect any node. The barrel sounds the same no matter where I hit it. There MAY be a slight reduction in sound as I get very close to the wood stok, but that's probably BECAUSER I am getting close to the wood stock and closer to the receiver end of the barrel. The barrel is a very robust 1" diameter octagonal barrel 30" in length. So, it might just be too stiff to "ring" like a lighter weight, smaller diameter barrel might?

Jim G

 

[Varminterror]

I think there are a ton of folks that do this.

Seeing a ton of folks doing something stupid doesn’t justify joining them.

We went through an exceptionally thorough thread on this forum recently describing why analyzing 3-5 groups for group SIZE is meaningless, and making decisions based on them is bad science. It’s well worth the read.

 

[Varminterror]

I tried finding a barrel node via tapping the barrel with first a 1" diameter wood dowel, and then using a plastic tip on my punch hammer. I tried both with different levels of force. I cannot for the life of me detect any node. The barrel sounds the same no matter where I hit it.

The harmonics we’re exploring in load development are ultrasonic, and the way they propagate is very, very different than what you’re attempting. All barrels have harmonic nodes - even 1.6” straight tapers, 37” long… you just won’t find them with a hammer.

This method is really dead pseudoscience, and it won’t get you where you need to go.

 

[Jimster]

Beautiful rifle!

 

[Chief TC]

Seeing a ton of folks doing something stupid doesn’t justify joining them.

We went through an exceptionally thorough thread on this forum recently describing why analyzing 3-5 groups for group SIZE is meaningless, and making decisions based on them is bad science. It’s well worth the read.

I've read it. Done plenty of reading and learning and doing to know what you say is just your opinion and nothing else. I would recommend you read what you write before you post. Your opinion does not constitute what others are doing is stupid or wrong. If you want to engage in science and fact, then totally different. But you are asserting your opinion as tried and true method. I use multiple 3-5 shot groups for evaluation and I'm shooting competitively and producing amazing results with my rifles. Some people need the long process and go through lots of ammo to properly evaluate. At one time I did that but discovered several 3-5 shot groups tells me what I need to know to make adjustments. Doesn't make me an expert necessarily, but it works for me and many others.

I've read your other posts and you have a penchant for the contrary and to come off as you know best. I would suggest you start writing your response as "I think" or "my experience." You are just some other guy on an interactive forum. If you are an expert and have "the one answer", then I'm sure you can find people to publish your thoughts elsewhere. In other words, get familiar with humility. I talk to national and international champions and they certainly don't engage like you do.

 

[Chief TC]

The harmonics we’re exploring in load development are ultrasonic, and the way they propagate is very, very different than what you’re attempting. All barrels have harmonic nodes - even 1.6” straight tapers, 37” long… you just won’t find them with a hammer.

This method is really dead pseudoscience, and it won’t get you where you need to go.

You all are talking about 2 different things. Nodes in load development and resting the rifle for the least amount of movement/vibration.

Jim, you should feel the dead spot on the barrel with a rubber mallet regardless of sound. That is where you rest the barrel. Every competitive BPCR shooter uses this area to rest the barrel to minimize jump/vibration/movement. I think you can even find a video a guy did on Youtube. When you hold it not touching anything, you can feel it.

 

[JimGnitecki]

You all are talking about 2 different things. Nodes in load development and resting the rifle for the least amount of movement/vibration.

Jim, you should feel the dead spot on the barrel with a rubber mallet regardless of sound. That is where you rest the barrel. Every competitive BPCR shooter uses this area to rest the barrel to minimize jump/vibration/movement. I think you can even find a video a guy did on Youtube. When you hold it not touching anything, you can feel it.

Chief, let me try this: Are you saying that if I hold the rifle vertical with the buttplate on the floor, and my one hand holding the barrel, and I strike the barrel with a plastic hammer head or a wooden dowel at multiple locations on the barrel, I will feel a vibration at most locations, but either no vibration or significantly lower vibration at one point on the barrel?

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

The harmonics we’re exploring in load development are ultrasonic, and the way they propagate is very, very different than what you’re attempting. All barrels have harmonic nodes - even 1.6” straight tapers, 37” long… you just won’t find them with a hammer.

This method is really dead pseudoscience, and it won’t get you where you need to go.

Varminter, let's differentiate between looking for nodes in a ladder test and lookign for nodes in a barrel ringing test:

I know that looking for nodes in a ladder test works, and does not require many shots. 3 to 5 at any specific powder load level is sufficient. When I fire just 3 shots at each of 5 different powder load levels, and measure the heights of the POI for each of the 5, I can see, and can graph in Microsoft Excel, that there are nodes in the graph where increased powder levels do NOT increase the height of the POI. And that's not only ME saying that. My best friend, who, like me, has been shooting for well over half a century, and who has repeatedly won F-Class provincial championships here in Canada, uses the same test method and says it works reliably for him too. So, I hope you are not saying that finding nodes that way is not a sound technique.

Now, striking a barrel at different points seeking a node, is something that I have not done in the past. But, I am open to trying any technique that at least a few people whose judgment I trust recommend to me. I've read many of Chief TC's postings, and they have built his credibility with me, just as your postings on the strengths of weaknesses of different calibers have. So, I have tried ringing the barrel with both the wooden dowel and the plastic tipped hammer. I did not detect any meaningful differences in the sound created at different points. But, I do know I have an ENT doctor identified ear channel issue that attenuates my hearing from day to day. So, Chief's last comment on "feeling" a difference got me thinking that perhaps what I need to do is strike the barrel while holding the barrel, perhaps at the muzzle where any vibration should be the largest in magnitude, and see if I can FEEL a difference. I will try that.

Jim G

 

[Chief TC]

Chief, let me try this: Are you saying that if I hold the rifle vertical with the buttplate on the floor, and my one hand holding the barrel, and I strike the barrel with a plastic hammer head or a wooden dowel at multiple locations on the barrel, I will feel a vibration at most locations, but either no vibration or significantly lower vibration at one point on the barrel?

Jim G

Hold the rifle vertical from the butt and dangling not touching the floor or anything for that matter. Then tap the barrel and you will feel the vibrations and one point will have the least amount of vibration or a dead spot. I think a rubber mallet works best for the feel test. The wood or plastic is more for sound in my opinion.

 

[JimGnitecki]

Hold the rifle vertical from the butt and dangling not touching the floor or anything for that matter. Then tap the barrel and you will feel the vibrations and one point will have the least amount of vibration or a dead spot. I think a rubber mallet works best for the feel test. The wood or plastic is more for sound in my opinion.

Hmm, the only "rubber" mallets I have are a set of 3 "deadblow" mallets that have rubber bodies but lead beads inside to dampen the blows. I suspect thsoe will not work because of their deadening of any vibration. I'll need to visit Home Depot and buy a mallet with an actual 100% rubber head, right?

Jim G