Tips for CONSISTENCY when shooting a "Buffalo rifle" ?

[Dr T]

You can determine the sweet spot by taking a wooden dowel or rubber mallet and knocking down the barrel. You eventually will hit the spot that does not vibrate or make noise. You can do this with the scope on. Some people put a piece of tape to mark it and then they ensure they rest it exactly in the middle of what is supporting the barrel.

1. I have seen this in several places. However, to get a resonate tone (or lack thereof), your steadying hand SHOULD NOT be on the barrel.. If it is on the barrel, it will dampen vibration. This may be of some slight interest: https://www.yamaha.com/en/musical_instrument_guide/marimba/mechanism/mechanism002.html

2. On the recoil: Left over from my scuba diving days, I have a neoprene weight belt and a bunch of bags each filled with about 2 lbs of #6 shot. When working with anything of heavy recoil (like a 375 H&H or 35 Whelen with 250 gr loads) I wrap it around the buttstock just behind the pistol grip. If the comb on the stock is a bit low, I may move it back a bit to give me a bit of a cheek rest. It does a nice job of taming the recoil (and fitting the eye alignment tends to help with the groups).

3. I submit that shooting multiple 3 shot groups isn't so bad mathematically. If you take the group sizes. Say you have 30 such groups (only 90 rounds), break them into 10 sets of 3 groups, and take the averages size of each of these sets, you will have 10 observations that follow the Normal (Gaussian) distribution (Central Limit Theorem). With this rifle, however, you may want to make sure the technique I described in Item 2 works.

 

[JimGnitecki]

1. I have seen this in several places. However, to get a resonate tone (or lack thereof), your steadying hand SHOULD NOT be on the barrel.. If it is on the barrel, it will dampen vibration.

2. On the recoil: Left over from my scuba diving days, I have a neoprene weight belt and a bunch of bags each filled with about 2 lbs of #6 shot. When working with anything of heavy recoil (like a 375 H&H or 35 Whelen with 250 gr loads) I wrap it around the buttstock just behind the pistol grip. If the comb on the stock is a bit low, I may move it back a bit to give me a bit of a cheek rest. It does a nice job of taming the recoil (and fitting the eye alignment tends to help with the groups).

3. I submit that shooting multiple 3 shot groups isn't so bad mathematically. If you take the group sizes. Say you have 30 such groups (only 90 rounds), break them into 10 sets of 3 groups, and take the averages size of each of these sets, you will have 10 observations that follow the Normal (Gaussian) distribution (Central Limit Theorem). With this rifle, however, you may want to make sure the technique I described in Item 2 works.

How can I possibly then FEEL the vibration? What if the steadying hand is with just a very light touch? (The rifle barrel being suspended in midair somehow via either a gun rest touching the woodwork only, or a rope or belt hanging from something very solid)

I'm TRYING to figure out how to make this technique work for me . . .

Jim G

 

[Dr T]

How can I possibly then FEEL the vibration? What if the steadying hand is with just a very light touch? (The rifle barrel being suspended in midair somehow via either a gun rest touching the woodwork only, or a rope or belt hanging from something very solid)

I'm TRYING to figure out how to make this technique work for me . . .

Jim G

This may be of some slight interest: https://www.yamaha.com/en/musical_instrument_guide/marimba/mechanism/mechanism002.html If your hearing has been significantly damaged, the tones may be in your dead range. I know I have trouble hearing the beeps from a toaster and the keypad on the gun safe. I would hold the fore end of the stock lightly and tap away, Or, it you could clamp the receiver in a gun vice so that the barrel was completely unsupported (with adequate counter weights on the stock) that might work. Also, a guitar tuning aid to sense the tone might help. These are just suggestions of things I would try.

 

[JimGnitecki]

This may be of some slight interest: https://www.yamaha.com/en/musical_instrument_guide/marimba/mechanism/mechanism002.html If your hearing has been significantly damaged, the tones may be in your dead range. I know I have trouble hearing the beeps from a toaster and the keypad on the gun safe. I would hold the fore end of the stock lightly and tap away, Or, it you could clamp the receiver in a gun vice so that the barrel was completely unsupported (with adequate counter weights on the stock) that might work. Also, a guitar tuning aid to sense the tone might help. These are just suggestions of things I would try.

Possibly. Let's see what others might suggest as well.

Jim G

 

[Varminterror]

@JimGnitecki - barrel ringing is voodoo and meaningless. I used to shoot with some BCPR LR guys which shared the same CAS/SASS clubs and which shared the same LR ranges - I shot a Buffalo Classic and a Marlin 1895 Cowboy the most, but did use a Sharps in 45-110 for a short time for these side match events - and even 20yrs ago “barrel ringing” was known voodoo… but hey, some folks still practice voodoo, so if that’s your faith, power forth…

I made no claim about the ladder method you’ve described - in any way - in this thread, and rather I have pointed to the folly of NOT using that method many, many, many times in this forum. But the predominant messaging here has been regarding a focus on group sizes, claiming some random bullets stack on eachother, some groups promote 1moa, and some 2.5+… then mentioning only shooting a limited 14 round test and again, comparing group SIZES… so forgive me for reading what is on the page and believing what was said.

 

[JimGnitecki]

Ok, I have to ask the obvious question: Does any successful buffalo rifle shooter position his or her cross-sticks under the wooden fore end instead? I'm asking because a lot of modern rifle shooters who use bipods go to great lengths to extend their receiver via Picatinny rail shrouds to keep the barrel "free-floating" when the bipod is positioned halfway along its length. Is the free floating barrel concept for some reason totally inappropriate for a buffalo rifle?

I realize that supporting the rifle via the wooden fore end shortens the distance between that support point and the rear support point, accentuating any unintentional shooter movements or forces into the rifle during the firing process, AND the LONG and hEAVY buffalo rifle barrel might prove to be pretty hard to counterbalance at the stock, but if the free floating barrel is so desirable on modern rifles, why is it not desirable on buffalo rifles?

Jim G

 

[Chief TC]

Ok, I have to ask the obvious question: Does any successful buffalo rifle shooter position his or her cross-sticks under the wooden fore end instead? I'm asking because a lot of modern rifle shooters who use bipods go to great lengths to extend their receiver via Picatinny rail shrouds to keep the barrel "free-floating" when the bipod is positioned halfway along its length. Is the free floating barrel concept for some reason totally inappropriate for a buffalo rifle?

I realize that supporting the rifle via the wooden fore end shortens the distance between that support point and the rear support point, accentuating any unintentional shooter movements or forces into the rifle during the firing process, AND the LONG and hEAVY buffalo rifle barrel might prove to be pretty hard to counterbalance at the stock, but if the free floating barrel is so desirable on modern rifles, why is it not desirable on buffalo rifles?

Jim G

Never seen anyone put anything other than the barrel on cross-sticks. Contrary to the varmint terror,the self appointed god of all things firearms, barrel harmonics and vibration affect accuracy. Every champion shooter practices this to ensure accuracy. If this wasn’t the case, no category of benchrest shooter would concern themselves with where the place the rifle on a rest.

 

[JimGnitecki]

@JimGnitecki - barrel ringing is voodoo and meaningless. I used to shoot with some BCPR LR guys which shared the same CAS/SASS clubs and which shared the same LR ranges - I shot a Buffalo Classic and a Marlin 1895 Cowboy the most, but did use a Sharps in 45-110 for a short time for these side match events - and even 20yrs ago “barrel ringing” was known voodoo… but hey, some folks still practice voodoo, so if that’s your faith, power forth…

I made no claim about the ladder method you’ve described - in any way - in this thread, and rather I have pointed to the folly of NOT using that method many, many, many times in this forum. But the predominant messaging here has been regarding a focus on group sizes, claiming some random bullets stack on eachother, some groups promote 1moa, and some 2.5+… then mentioning only shooting a limited 14 round test and again, comparing group SIZES… so forgive me for reading what is on the page and believing what was said.

Thanks for clarifying what you meant. Now I need to clarify: The 3 x 5 shots test (not 14 shots), 3 shots each at 5 different powder levels that I described earlier was NOT a group size test, but rather simply a POI HEIGHT test to quickly identify a velocity range that would be on a node, so that any small variations in actual powder weight would have minimized impacts on groups later actually fired for group size. That 3 x 5 (or 3 x 6 or 3 x 7 different levels of powder weight) technique has worked REALLY well for me. I almost always see clearly in a MS Excel graph where to focus further efforts.

Jim G

 

[jmr40]

Have you considered that 2 MOA is as good as that rifle is capable of. You may simply have unrealistic expectations.

 

[Dr T]

Whenever I hear that certain measurement techniques are obsolete or too crude to be applicable or trusted, I think of this little cautionary tale:

The really interesting part starts about 3 minutes in.

 

[JimGnitecki]

Have you considered that 2 MOA is as good as that rifle is capable of. You may simply have unrealistic expectations.

I understand that that is a possibility, but I am consistently told by too many owners of Pedersoli rifles that they tend to be VERY accurate - PROVIDED that you feed them the right ammunition. This is why when you want to shoot a Pedersoli Sharps replica at long distance, you pay close attention to things like bullet weight (higher is better) exact bullet diameter (.459" or .460" usually), powder weight optimized for the bullet and the distance, no crimping, etc. One MOA or better is typical if the shooter pays attention to all the above AND has or develops the right technique, position, and hold. It's a journey. I enjoy the journeys.

Jim G

 

[murf]

mods need to put this in the black powder section.

murf

 

[Varminterror]

no category of benchrest shooter

…whacks their barrel with a hammer to determine where to place their rest.

no category of benchrest shooter

…rests their barrel on their front rest…

 

[JimGnitecki]

mods need to put this in the black powder section.

murf

NO! This is for a smokeless load, NOT a black powder load. The black powder section will only talk about black powder issues.

Jim G

 

[murf]

i th

NO! This is for a smokeless load, NOT a black powder load. The black powder section will only talk about black powder issues.

Jim G

I thought you wanted help on shooting the rifle, not your handloading skills. your thread, your call.

luck,

murf

 

[Dr T]

I, too, would worry about the barrel resting directly on the front rest. Barrels tend to be touchy and a slight variation in pressure can make a significant change in point of impact in my experience.

 

[PWC]

am also shooting from the (concrete) bench with a Caldwell Rock Junior bag/tripod under the 1" diameter barrel, immediately in front of (not touching) the for-end of the stock.

I haven't read all the responses, but the above did jump out at me from your very good and complete discription. I believe the front of the rifle should be supported under the forend, not the barrel.

 

[JimGnitecki]

i th


I thought you wanted help on shooting the rifle, not your handloading skills. your thread, your call.

luck,

murf

As soon as anyone posts about shooting a buffalo rifle, the immediate reaction from the Black Powder crowd is too insists on shooting "The holy Black". Even Mike Venturino does it.

Jim G

 

[Varminterror]

Barrel support under the Sharps is common. Ain’t great, but that’s how the rifle is built.

 

[JimGnitecki]

Given the lack of agreement on where to support the rifle's front end while shooting, I am going to try every frontal support position from the muzzle to the receiver and see the results for each. I'll need to shoot a lot of shots to have enough statistical samples, but I will willingly make that sacrifice . . .

Jim G

 

[Chuck R.]

I never tested BPCR loads at 100 yards, always 200.

Odds are it's your bullets. There's no way to buy factory cast bullets that will have the consistency you need unless you've got somebody casting for you$$$

I never messed with smokeless with my BPCRs, but casting good bullets is an art all in itself. When I started I made sure I used an alloy from the same "lot" and segregated my bullets by weight, once cast, prior to lubing. Once I got better, I cast using verified 20-1 and shot them in order of when they were cast.

I shot my way into Master class and won multiple matches using wheelweights before I knew better. But, I was extremely anal about my bullets, alloy lots etc.

The position of the sticks on your barrel is another thing that has to be worked out. I always preferred as far out as possible to avoid the fulcrum effect. I never whacked my barrel with a hammer. Just picked a spot, used it for load development and shot from that position in matches. I put a band of tape right in front of my stick position. A 1/4 - 1/2 MOA in group size delta doesn't mean chit when you've got a 2MOA wobble going on.

The biggest learning curve with a BPCR is follow-through. You've got a slow bullet, in a long honking barrel. "Quit" the gun early and you'll get patterns and sub groups.

The reason the BPCR crowd harps on BP is because generally in these big cases its more consistent than smokeless. I never had a match load with an SD over 6. And I never saw anyone win a match using a BP substitute.

 

[JimGnitecki]

I never tested BPCR loads at 100 yards, always 200.

Odds are it's your bullets. There's no way to buy factory cast bullets that will have the consistency you need unless you've got somebody casting for you$$$

I never messed with smokeless with my BPCRs, but casting good bullets is an art all in itself. When I started I made sure I used an alloy from the same "lot" and segregated my bullets by weight, once cast, prior to lubing. Once I got better, I cast using verified 20-1 and shot them in order of when they were cast.

I shot my way into Master class and won multiple matches using wheelweights before I knew better. But, I was extremely anal about my bullets, alloy lots etc.

The position of the sticks on your barrel is another thing that has to be worked out. I always preferred as far out as possible to avoid the fulcrum effect. I never whacked my barrel with a hammer. Just picked a spot, used it for load development and shot from that position in matches. I put a band of tape right in front of my stick position. A 1/4 - 1/2 MOA in group size delta doesn't mean chit when you've got a 2MOA wobble going on.

The biggest learning curve with a BPCR is follow-through. You've got a slow bullet, in a long honking barrel. "Quit" the gun early and you'll get patterns and sub groups.

The reason the BPCR crowd harps on BP is because generally in these big cases its more consistent than smokeless. I never had a match load with an SD over 6. And I never saw anyone win a match using a BP substitute.

This is a pretty helpful posting, Chuck R! Thank-you!

The bullets I am using show the following statistics when sampled:

TOTAL:	Weight	Length	Diameter
Average	401.3​	1.0073​	0.45840​
Std Dev	0.7​	0.0010​	0.00021​
Max	402.8​	1.0095​	0.45850​
Min	399.4​	1.0060​	0.45800​
Max minus Min	3.4​	0.0035​	0.00050​
% worst max to min	0.8%​	0.3%​	0.1% ​

However, I DO think they are too hard, having a tested BHN 16 with the Lee Hardness Tester. I am thinking that for my Smokeless Trapdoor pressure level loads, a bHN of about 12.5 should be ideal, providing peak pressures that are only about 10% lower than a BHN 12.5 bullet can handle. That SHOULD create ideal conditions for good obturation.

Your 20 to 1 alloy would have been about a BHN - 10, which sounds pretty good for Black Powder pressures.

I noted your preference for near-muzzle stick position. I would THINK that would tend to dampen barrel vibration, since it would be at the point of maximized barrel vibration (furthest from the fixed receiver end of the barrel).

I agree that a significant shooter wobble would overwhelm any barrel harmonics. But I am shooting from a bench, and have a VERY low heart rate (low 50s), so my sight picture is VERY stable. Inadequately controlled movement of the rifle during and after firing IS what I suspect is the primary issue in my group size results.

I do realize that using The Holy Black would make things easier, but I have a very strong preference to avoid the mess that Black makes and the way that affects both consistent shooting AND post-firing cleaning. I am no glutton for that punishment!

Thanks again for your taking the time to give me your inputs. They are very helpful. If you think of more, please do post!

Jim G

 

[Chuck R.]

IF you're running a 1:18 twist, the 405s are in the "lite" arena. 2MOA with store bought bullets really isn't bad. Are you using a wind flag?

You can try segregating your bullets into weight lots. Also, I never went as small as 3 shot groups, often I'd shoot 10, because that's a bank of animals and learning you're blow tube use an how a load reacts is just as important as MOA size.

Honestly, IMHO you're overthinking the barrel vibration thing. I competed with some very, very, good shots and none of them sweat that. It "briefs well" and sounds technical and all, but IMHO consistency is more important. It really is a big thick barrel. IF you're doing your load development from that rest spot, then it's incorporated in your load.. in theory. Guys used little crossed sticks that sat on their bench for load development.

Bench Cross Sticks AKA Bench Shooting Sticks

Custom Oak BPCR Bench Cross Sticks: Many shooters prefer to test their rifle's loads using bench cross sticks to replicate as close as possible the shooting position they use in competition. That is where bench rest shooting sticks come in! Using these shooting sticks eliminates a variable in...

www.buffaloarms.com

I have 3 BPCRs; Shiloh 74 in .45-100, Ballard R&C 1885 in .45-90 and Ballard R&C 1885 in .40-70Win and I got all of them to just sub MOA resting on the same approximate spot on the barrel. Just because that's where I like my sticks. IF the harmonics mattered that much, what are the odds??

It's not a smokeless HV cartridge, shooting technique is more important due to the dwell time and the lock time. Even if you're shooting smokeless at a little higher MV. We used to joke about how much harder it was to shoot a 74 well due to the massive side hammer torque, but in part it's true. Part of the reason why, the center hammers, then the striker fired (Borchardt), came to dominate the matches back in the 1800s.

There's no shortcut here, practice and you'll learn the rifle. A and AA shooters debated stuff like harmonics, and loads going transonic at the Turkey bank, etc. etc. etc. meanwhile the AAA and Master class guys just practiced a lot.

Get one of these:

.22 Adapter for .40 and .45 cal. rifles

This unit uses an ingenious shell holder adapter that holds the cartridge into the chamber of the liner. The shell holder then is struck by your rifles firing pin.

stores.leeshavergunsmithing.com

I had one, then finally had a custom Ballard R&C .22LR Low-Wall built to mimic my .45-90 and .40-70W.

 

[jmorris]

Have you considered that 2 MOA is as good as that rifle is capable of. You may simply have unrealistic expectations.

That is where my suggestion in #9 was headed. if the firearm is incapable of producing satisfactory results by itself, adding a human probably isn’t going to make it all better.

There are lots of variables getting rid of as many as you can makes it easier to see the effects as you bring them back into the picture 1 at a time, to see the results each have.

I have had firearms shoot better than I can aim them myself (at least with existing sighting system). Let’s me know what they can do and what I need to work on…

 

[Chief TC]

I, too, would worry about the barrel resting directly on the front rest. Barrels tend to be touchy and a slight variation in pressure can make a significant change in point of impact in my experience.

Varmint terror, the god of all knowledge firearms says it’s all voodoo. But hey, what do we know?