To bell, or not to bell? (for thee?)

[Stinger]

Different strokes...

I don't shoot lead, I know, I know, I am missing a lot of cost savings here. But I simply do not shoot enough, unfortunatley I do not have the time.

But here is my take on belling and expanding thus far, although my experience is limited:

I only reload for two rifle calibers, and two pistol calibers.

For rifle, 30'06 and 7.5 swiss, I do not bell. It has simply not been an issue.

For pistol, I started out on Lee dies, long before I had an unpleasant experience with Mr. Lee himself (if you are interested, do a search for Lee under my name.) I started out with 45acp, and overbelled enough to cause feeding problems. The Lee FCD helped some, but I really needed to correct the issue of overbelling (which I did), and then I had no further problems.

For 357 magnum, it was the same. A little tinkering, and I was able to find the minimum amount of belling necessary for bullet insertion, and proper case tension.

Here is my suggestion, do what works for you. My ammunition may not be as accurate as some of yours, but it is more accurate than I can now shoot myself.

Regards,

Stinger

 

[Chuck R.]

Because you've just removed a goodly amount of metal at the case mouth. I can only imagine how much neck tension disappeared with that metal, since you've now got a funnel-shaped case at the top, even if the O.D. was untouched. Do you have to use that cutter every time you reload and resize the brass?

Gewehr98,

It’s a one time case prep deal, till you trim your brass again. Which with a BPCR I’ve only had to do a couple times ever. They really don’t stretch much.

I don’t use a taper crimp or any crimp at all. I rely on neck tension only, and only a couple .001s at that. For my competition guns I use a Neil Jones neck sizing die with interchangeable bushings. I can vary the neck tension by simply swapping out a bushing in relation to bullet as cast diameter.

The Jones tool looks way more aggressive than it really is. All it does is apply a greater angle to the case mouth chamfer than a standard tool does. To the eye it looks like a standard deburr/chamfer cut, but it’s just enough to allow the base of the bullet in, and allow it to be seated unscathed (no shaved lead). There’s still plenty of case neck left for tension and it doesn’t effect the inside diameter of the case neck at all.

For the second half of this year I went back to slip fit bullets in a new load. Seemed to shook well, I won 2 matches and placed in about 4 more. No neck tension really takes a lot of work out of loading, but I prefer my bullets to stay where I put them.

Chuck

 

[The Bushmaster]

Have we gained anything other then longer life for the mouth of a particular case? Is the cost of this tool worth the cost of thousands of decaped and tumbled cases that I have for every calibre in my gun safe? Hell I can't wear out .45 ACP cases as it is. And my .38 and .357 have a pretty good use life as it is too. Some (Remington nickled) have been used for aroung 10 years. As I don't bell my rifle cases they don't even count here. Now that a few level headed people on this site have explained what you, Gen. Washington, couldn't. And I have listened. I will continue to bell my cases just enough to start my projectiles. But thanks...for the entertainment...

 

[Gewehr98]

Ok, Chuck, thanks for the explanation.

I'm afraid I still have to crimp my .45-70 BPCR loads, because I run them so compressed that the bullets will actually creep out from powder column pressure if I don't.

That, and the SPG lube is pretty darned slick stuff, I've watched the bullets creep out of the rounds sitting there on the bench within minutes of loading them.

 

[Chuck R.]

Gewehr98

I call that “hydraulicing” back out, for lack of a better term. I normally use just enough neck tension to prevent it, while seating my bullets as close to the lands as possible. It usually gives me pretty good accuracy, and a SD of around 3-5 FPS.

Have you been using a compression plug? With my latest LOT of Swiss 1.5, I compress the powder about .165” or so, just enough for my slip fit bullets to have a consistent OAL. When my bullets “hydrauliced” it was actually the trapped air between the wad and the bullet base. IF I set another loading block on them over night, they all creep back down where they belong.

I started with SPG, then went to home-made, then went top Shavers Moly, and I’m now shooting stuff called DGL. The DGL is a lot like SPG, but slightly less expensive.

Chuck

 

[The Bushmaster]

Air?? That would be neumatic pressure...Hydraulic is fluid pressure...

 

[Chuck R.]

Air?? That would be neumatic pressure...Hydraulic is fluid pressure...

Good point! I guess I got fixated on the lube being involved.

"Neumaticed" out it is!

Chuck

 

[Gewehr98]

No compression plug die, as of yet.

I do, however, have a 36" drop tube I fashioned out of an old aluminum Rossignol ski pole, to get the best powder compression I can. Then it's a WonderWad, and the bullet, lubed either by SPG, or Crisco. (Butter-flavored if I want to give my range mates an aromatic treat) Very comfortable, and very accurate out of my Ruger #1S.

I may tweak this load some more when I take delivery of my 32" Sharps Creedmoor around Christmas.

 

[snuffy]

Gen winchester---

Since you got it to work,(if you weren't just blowing smoke up our a**es), I figured I could! Also since you're so certain of your process that you won't even do the simple test I asked for, I figured I'd do it and post the results.

I took 8 once fired .45 r-p cases and sized them in my lee carbide sizer. Half were belled as much as I usually do, the othe half were expanded with the die backed off 1.5 turns, so the belling step wouldn't hit the mouth.

I then seated some 200 SWC west coast plated bullets. The belled cases seated a bullet without a hitch, slipping easily into the cases. The unbelled but expanded cases were a different story! It took several tries to get them started straight,(yeah I know the lee dies don't have a sleeve like the Hornadys). But once they got started, they went in with a noticeable extra effort right at the start of entering the case. I then pulled the bullets and examined them. The bullets from the belled cases had almost no evidence that they'd been inside a case. The unbelled ones were scraped, not real bad but it was sure noticeable.

This was performed on my bonanza co-ax press. The shells had no primer or powder in them, since I was just looking for evidence of damage caused by the sharp edge of the unbelled, unchamfered cases.

If I had a true macro lense on my digital camera, I'd post some pics.

My conclusion is; while it can be done, WHY? And it would be damn hard to do on a progressive press like my dillon 650. The WC bullets have a generous radius on their heel, other bullets may not work for this. I wanted to try some cast bullets, but with the sharp heel they would simply collapse the case. I always have to increase the belling when loading cast bullets because of this.

 

[BluesBear]

External case neck diameter measurements before and after are the same.

Yes, I understand that, but the INSIDE dimension is the same as if you used a standard expander.

All you have done is weaken the walls of the case.

But if it works for you that's fine. It's not as if this is a life or death firearm.

 

[JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone]

I gotta agree with BlueBear on the "cutter expander". (I think what he's pointing out), is that that type of expander would thin an weaken the case mouth more than belling the case would.

Personally, for pistols I load lead and jacketed bullets for 9mm through 45acp. I don't think I'd be successful with any of my lead loads without belling the case. But, I will add that I bell to the bear minimums. Just enough for the bullet to set on the case. I do not bell for my son's .243 or my .30cal stuff.

OK, only 20 years of reloading behind me. I've tried some things I shouldn't have. Succeded with having both my eyes, all my fingers and no broken firearms. ... Well, Ok, I did break a frame lock on a Taurus model 66 from some heavy loads once, but it was repairable. My point? None. This "no belling" seems to be working for Gen. Remington. So be it.

I wasn't successful years ago trying, and doubt that I could do it with my current Dillon. If I wanted to reload pistol ammo with the bullets I currently use, with single stage, maybe. But the rewards (if any), are not enough for me to even venture there.

-There, I made a statement, without slamming Gen. Remington.

-Steve

 

[Chuck R.]

BluesBear

You’ve really got to see it to understand.

The picture shows a pretty aggressive looking tool, but it does slightly more “cutting” than a standard deburring tool. The difference is really in the angle of the cut. The case mouth is “sharper”. I measured the depth, or the length of the case neck effected as best I could with my calipers and it came out to .0090”, slightly longer than a standard deburring tool. It in no way reams the case neck. I suppose that .0090” portion is the same diameter as an expander could make it, but it would have to be an expander that only bells brass. Then you’d still have to crimp or size to remove the bell. The inside dimension is no where near what an inside expander would do, it is the as sized diameter. The case neck is in no way stretched or belled, but the beveled edge is just enough to start a bullet and stop it from being shaved.

I’ve loaded this prepped brass for two years now, so let me so some math. According to my match record books, I shot 35 matches with it, at 60 shots per match, so that’s 2100 rounds (not counting practice & load development) divided by 200 pieces of match prepped brass, which equals 10.5 loadings each so far. (keep in mind I anneal every 3rd loading)

So it looks like the weakened case walls are holding up…….............so far.

Chuck

PS: Here's another tool that does the same thing:

http://www.meachamrifles.com/EASY SEATER.htm

 

[BluesBear]

Hey, I'm just going by what the advert stated.

The inside dimension is no where near what an inside expander would do,

This seems to be in direct conflict with what their website says.

"Cutter dimensions correspond to standard expander die sizes by caliber"

Now perhaps I am misreading it? Again and again.
Now I am not saying the Jones Tool doesn't have it's place. Fitz wouldn't be selling it if it didn't. But it's definitely not for everyone. Not even for almost everyone. It is a very specialized tool for a very specialized purpose.

I know some serious long range target shooters who expand their case mouths as little as possible and do not crimp at all so as to avoid distorting the bullet in any way.
But these are loaded and fired one at a time. And are assembled with accuracy, not power, as the prime objective.

Bullet setback during chambering is not an issue. Each round is loaded directly into the chamber.
Jumping crimp during recoil is also not an issue since there is only one cartridge loaded at a time.
Powders requiring a tight crimp are also not the norm.

Producing ammunition for ultra precision shooting is very different from producing hunting and self defense ammunition.

But if you're loading cast boolits, that are properly sized for your revolver cylinder's throat diameters, then you are going to need to properly process your cases to accept those bullets with minimal bullet distortion.
If you are assembling ammunition to be fired in a magazine fed firearm you need to ensure the bullet stays put during chambering.
If you are loading ammunition for a heavy recoiling firearm you need to make sure those bullets don't jump forward and muck up the action.

And this almost always entails expanding after sizing and crimping after seating.

 

[Matthew748]

Hey Gewehr98, I love the little Iron Maiden statue!

Back on topic, I bell straight wall cases because 90% of what I load in them are lead bullets. The only ones I can think of off hand that might not suffer from shaving are the .38 158gr LSWCs I usually use. They have a tapered base that may allow one to skip the expansion process. I never tried though.

 

[MNgoldenbear]

Hi guys. Couple of quick things. I'm also a little confused by the "cutter/expander" issue. If the inside diameter is the same as if they had been expanded, and the outside diameter is as sized, the brass has either been shaved off or swaged farther down along the case wall (which I think would collapse the case, as there's nothing supporting it at this point). I don't know if the process would SIGNIFICANTLY weaken the case. I would think that the significance would depend on the actual final thickness of the brass and the pressure of the load.

On the "pneumatic/hydraulic" thing: yes, pneumatic refers to air/gas pressure (term comes from "air"), while hydraulic refers to water/liquid (term comes from "water"). However, "fluid" would refer to either liquids or gases (and the bulk behavior of some solids as well).

 

[The Bushmaster]

MNGoldenbear...Not being an "Engineer" or a "Lab tech", but just a lowly Marine/Industrial Master Diesel Mechanic. Fluid in my line of work is liquid motion at work for man's convienance. That makes it "hydraulic" and a liquid...Oh darn...I forgot the "p"...Just shoot me...

 

[MNgoldenbear]

Bushmaster: Not an "Engineer" or "Lab tech" either -- just play one on TV (Yeah, I do have a heavy science education background -- but DON'T shoot me! ) Hey, hope things are looking up in the Bear Republic. Left in '02 -- it was getting pretty bad then. Keep up the good fight.

 

[armoredman]

Unlike most posting here, I could qualify as a noobie, with about 1.5 years reloading, only doing three calibers, etc. I bell wide in 9mm. I dont care, I find/have tons of brass, work it well, don't care. Belling saves time and effort. If I run short of brass, (not likely!), I take a trip to the range, and scrounge more.
If you have an exotic or rare caliber, then sure, work it as little as possible, but if you are handloading a generic, (like me), why bother? I reload for the fun, and accuracy, not to 'save the brass.'

 

[antarti]

I have no problems admitting I am both a noob reloader and use LEE equipment.

I tried 2 experiments, both were a resounding success.

First I resized some (unprimed) cases, and tried seating some Rainier 185 FP's. Press pressure was higher than usual. There was no shaved plating though, and the round seated to the right depth. Maybe this is due the fact that with both the LEE dies and Hornady LNLs there are now 2 rubber O-rings that let the die semi-float and thus be centered, but I can't prove anything.

But now the BIG news, experiment #2:

I took my LEE .45 Undersize die and resized a case. At this point, after measuring the outside of the case, I was really skeptical if this was a good idea. Thinking (at worst) that I would donate a case and bullet to science, I tried seating the (obviously overhanging) bullet. Even though pressure on the press required the addition of a breaker-bar, I finally got the ram to top-of-stroke.
What came out of the die resembled an ice-cream-cone, with partially melted ice cream. However, undaunted, I stuck the whole shebang in the LEE FCD, set for heavy crimp.

Imagine my surprise (I was using a single 185 FP) when out popped a case containing a 155grn plated-base full-wadcutter! Not only that, a second later a piece of .45 "tubular" ammo fell out of the FCD Die!

Now, tell me what other brand gets you 2 for 1?

 

[The Bushmaster]

MNgoldenbear...Hopefully I'll be leaving the USSR of Ca in 07 (for good).

Antarti...I believe you have struck gold...2 for 1 is one he** of a bargain...

 

[Doug b]

Lyman (M) expander die works for me.Minimum expansion,will not shave bullets,and bullets start more concentric(per RCBS case master gauge).I believe it was developed for cast bullets but I use it for all loads because of the concentricity issue.If it starts straighter it shoots straighter.

 

[BluesBear]

If it starts straighter it shoots straighter.

AMEN!

Another vote here for the Lyman M dies.
I have been advocationg them for over 20 years.

Even though I prefer Redding dies, I do have some Lyman, Hornady and RCBS sets. However, ALL of my expander dies are Lyman!

 

[cracked butt]

Reloading is an activity where I'm always looking for a place to cut corners. I figure that measuring powder is too time consuming and that I could save a lot of time by 'eyeballing' it. Seating depths? Well I forgot my glasses and can't read the dial caliper, so I'll eyeball those too. Crimp? Bah, who needs it, I'll just jam the bullets into an unbelled case (another time saver) and call it done. The vast majority of other reloaders have been doing things more meticulously over the years, what do they know?