Too much safety?

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gcdpony,

I wish you the best and hope nothing ever goes wrong. But do keep in mind that if one of the kids (or one of their friends) does something stupid, it's you or your wife that may wind up in jail.

I always trusted my children but that trust had limits. I never let my kids have free access to things that could ultimately ruin me. I didn't give my under-age children firearms, keys to the car, or login info for the bank account. As they grew older the trust grew as well. They now have firearms and keys to everything in the driveway. The bank business will have to wait...
 
No. Kids brains are not fully developed, and while she may KNOW proper gun care and use, her brain may simply not fire correctly at some point and a tragedy can ensue.
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You know, kids have had guns in this country for hundreds of years, and it seems to me that this thing about kids killing each other with them seems to have become prominent in the 60's and 70's. Seems to me like another way to take away the rights of minors, which seems to happen a lot in this country.
 
TexasBill said:
Ammunition is locked up, not because I don't trust my son, but because I don't want a lawsuit because some kid did something he shouldn't.
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This is the exact reason that "saftey" has become what it is today in this country, because if someone comes into your home and does something stupid with one of your things you will be sued and you become responsible for there actions.

To think we live in a country where someone can sue for millions of dollars for spilling hot coffee on themselves when in all reality tens of millions of other people had their hot coffee just fine that morning, and if they had given you cold coffee you would either have taken it back or sued for frostbite. /rant
 
Kids are people too.


Millions of adults entrust their teenagers with dirt bikes, ATVs, power tools, even cars. It would be very silly to draw the line at firearms for no reason other than their dubious legal and (perceived) moral status.
 
I tend to agree with the OP. Of course, I think a lot of it has to do with how you were raised. We farmed when I grew up and so did my buddies. I had my own .22 and 12ga in my closet by the time I was 9 or 10. I shot ALL the time with and without my buddies. If we were out working on fence, or cutting wood I had a gun leaning on something nearby.

Had my friends not been exposed to guns in the same way I was I could see problems arising when they came over, but they weren't. Guns were just another tool...they just stayed in the house instead of the machine shed. I don't ever remember getting a gun out just to horse around. We would go out and target shoot, but never just play with the gun. Guns were shown respect in our house, but they were always present, so it was no big deal.
 
good topic
short version, agree with Mountainman38 #23,#34,#71. hso #40, Sam1911 #58

Long version would have a lot to do with the subject being not really guns, but children. The irresistible temptation to believe (each and every one of us) that our offspring are perfect clones of ourselves -
and since we, as individuals, are "more right" in our opinions than anyone else (because of course, we are) our perfect clones will always do exactly as we would do, having been taught by the best

none of which, tragically (?) is true
no matter our sincere efforts, they are not clones, and they will spend most of their waking hours with others "out there", not you or I

my choice-
they should have guns and ammo readily available at their fingertips just as soon as they "carry their own water"
until that time, they will be asking my permission, and will be readily accommodated so long as they demonstrate what I have taught them

good intentions and good training mean not so much as we would wish, behavior counts, always
age 8... no way
with just a little bit of luck, you earn love by merit of being born; trust you have to earn the old fashioned way, and it is a long but necessary road


PS
OP, when that girl reaches age 13, be ready to respond to that "you don't trust me !" line
but.. it probably won't be "gun related"
good luck and best wishes !
 
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gdcpony said:
....And we feed into it. By stressing how safe we are we give them a reason to fear. Why not instead just talk about how easy it is to learn to hit your target? Should they wish to learn then teach them that part. Why? Because if you teach them properly, then by the time they are hitting their target they will be safe- or at least have a good start....
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Sorry, I disagree completely. Having helped teach hundreds of beginners over the years, including a lot of kids, the place to start is safety and safe gun handling.
 
fiddletown said:
Sorry, I disagree completely. Having helped teach hundreds of beginners over the years, including a lot of kids, the place to start is safety and safe gun handling.
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Safe gun handling should be part of normal gun handling. Our unit had an ND (negligent discharge) today. Umm.. this was a fully trained adult Marine NCO. I'm sure he had all the "safety" crap we all did in training. Still it obviously was not part of his "normal" routine.

I have no illusions that my kids are perfect clones of me. The girls are not biologically mine in any case. I am just the one who wanted them and their mother in my life. Nor do I think I am any better than anyone else. I just think we teach a bit backwards and preach too much.

Since we seem to be focusing on kids, but this really applies to anyone.
 
I'm pro gun as much as anyone else. And yes, guns are just that....tools. And the person behind it is the key to safety.

HOWEVER, 1) Kids are kids...and even the most responsible kid may have lapses of good judgment.

2) Unlike a kitchen knife (which can kill also) the gun's unique ability to project harm halfway across the house, penetrate walls, etc... makes it a uniquely dangerous items for children WITHOUT adult supervision. The gun's unique ability to do great harm at the press of a trigger should be recognized. If we really think that guns belong to the same class as any other dangerous tools... such as kitchen knives, power drills.... then we would be packing those instead.

3) The very thing that makes me want to have a gun (if ever attacked by a criminal) is the very reason I would not trust guns to unsupervised minors.
 
gbw said:
Guns are different than knives, bats, vehicles. Denying this is silly. They are more far deadly, far easier to be deadly with, and will easily kill at long distance. Thats what they do and why we invented them.
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I'd have to agree with at least this aspect because while guns are not unique in this regard, they do have an extremely high ratio between potential harm and the ease with which such harm is (in this case literally) triggered, both deliberately and through negligence. I could kill somebody with a pencil, for example, but that would take a lot more doing on my part than pulling the trigger of a gun. And while a bow is similar to a gun once it is drawn, the deliberate, forceful act of drawing it is a constant reminder of the potential danger involved, whereas with a gun it is all too easy for somebody to forget that a round is still in the chamber, pull the trigger to decock the hammer or play with it, and BANG!--somebody could be killed at a good distance away, even through walls.

Developing good gun-handling habits and avoiding fear of guns are good things, but because of the nature of guns, as described above, one should take active steps to avoid complacency and maintain a healthy level of respect for something that is, quite frankly, dangerous--no more so than automobiles, for example, but dangerous nevertheless. While anything can be taken too far, and I think that I understand the intent of the original post, in terms of semantics and point of view, I find myself much more in line with Mountainman38's arguments in this debate. Those on either "side" don't necessarily have very different underlying beliefs, but I think there is a large difference in how we express (particularly in terms of framing) and/or view them.

As for children and guns, I'm going to refrain from making any blanket statements about children. They're people who happen to be relatively young, and they're all different just like older people. Some children are mature enough to handle guns responsibly on their own (which was not uncommon during some eras historically), while some people in their 40s sadly are not. Maybe most children these days should be supervised at all times, statistically speaking (certainly if all ages are included), but we're not dealing with absolutes here.
 
I'm a relatively new dad my son is only 16 months old. I've been learning recently that sometimes the best way to get a kid to lost interest in something you don't him messing with is to let him play with it supervised. My son was obsessed with the T.V. remote control and we wouldn't let him play with it. Then we started giving it to him and he got it out of his system and quickly lost interest. When it was no longer something he couldn't have it just wasn't as interesting to him. So I think the same strategy should apply to guns. Train the kids to use them properly, remove the taboo aspect, the fear, the unknown and they wont be a big deal to the kid.
 
neededausername said:
I'm a relatively new dad my son is only 16 months old. I've been learning recently that sometimes the best way to get a kid to lost interest in something you don't him messing with is to let him play with it supervised. My son was obsessed with the T.V. remote control and we wouldn't let him play with it. Then we started giving it to him and he got it out of his system and quickly lost interest. When it was no longer something he couldn't have it just wasn't as interesting to him. So I think the same strategy should apply to guns. Train the kids to use them properly, remove the taboo aspect, the fear, the unknown and they wont be a big deal to the kid.
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If you read one of my earlier posts, that is exactly what happened. They didn't want to shoot without me so my wife has put the guns away. I am ok with that. I put stuff in storage I don't use often. But once I get back the g-hogs better hide!
 
Im also concerned with the amount of people who make the shooting sports difficult by being "too" safe. I have sen countless times when during a round of skeet or trap someone leaves their safety on when they go to shoot, and when they are done they open the gun and put it back on safe to be forgotten the next time. My cousin has trouble even shooting a rifle off a benchrest because his uncle won't let him put his finger in the trigger until he "takes the shot".

A gun is a tool, and if you treat it with respect, you will be fine.
 
My kids (boy, 9 & girl, 12) understand the 4 rules & recite them often. I have lots of guns in the house, some of them belong to the kids. They can see them whenever they ask, so I agree with the OP with regard to removing the mystique around guns to discourage unauthorized foolishness. That said, when they want to see one of the guns, they have to ask me. I get them out of the SAFE, I clear them, and then the kid has to double check. Every time, no exceptions. My wife & I are the only ones with the combo.

I have two loaded guns out at all times, and both are off limits to the kids & they know it. A 12 gage pump next to the bed, and a 12 gage coach SxS on the mantel. On the vary rare occasion adults are not in the house, or whenever the kids have friends over, even those two go in the safe.

My dad was exactly the same with me, except he had no safe. Even though it was forbidden, I still played with his guns when he was not home, luckily without incident. (The 4 rules were tattoo's on my inner eyelids)
 
Pronghorn said:
...My cousin has trouble even shooting a rifle off a benchrest because his uncle won't let him put his finger in the trigger until he "takes the shot".
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His uncle is absolutely right. Trigger finger discipline isn't all that hard to learn.

Pronghorn said:
...I have sen countless times when during a round of skeet or trap someone leaves their safety on when they go to shoot...
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And that can be fixed by training and practice.

Pronghorn said:
...A gun is a tool, and if you treat it with respect, you will be fine.
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And it's a tool that can kill someone a long way away. Respect it accordingly. The level of respect needs to be commensurate with the risk.
 
Originally Posted by gdcpony
....And we feed into it. By stressing how safe we are we give them a reason to fear. Why not instead just talk about how easy it is to learn to hit your target? Should they wish to learn then teach them that part. Why? Because if you teach them properly, then by the time they are hitting their target they will be safe- or at least have a good start....

Sorry, I disagree completely. Having helped teach hundreds of beginners over the years, including a lot of kids, the place to start is safety and safe gun handling.
Click to expand...

+1. Learning safety and learning to shoot are completely different, and the safety portion MUST preceed the shooting part. I teach gun safety as well, and even the most savy, well taught kid can be tricked into disobeying the rules. Using slight of hand, I regularly load a snap cap into the "unloaded" gun used for instruction, and get a show of hands from the class on whether it is loaded. (Mag out of the gun, they just watched me clear it)They almost ALWAYS say it is empty, at which point I shuck the plastic round loudly onto the table at the front of the room.
 
Safety should ALWAYS be number one and inculcated appropriately. It is the responsibility of the parent(s) to know their child/children and use an effective way to impart this information and ensure that follow-up is attained.
 
sidenote story - some other forum some years ago

a senior member, highly experienced former LEO, real deal firearms skills, knowledgeable, intelligent, well educated, professional
went on the usual rant re: toy guns bad, children will think real guns are toys
real guns good, advocated keeping loaded firearms in plain view around the house
not laying on the floor or table, but easy accessible, loaded and not locked
claimed if trained right, the child would learn proper respect and safety, and would be far better off in the long run than playing "irresponsibly" with toy guns, you know

at that time his one and only child was 3 or 4 months old
long on firearms knowledge and skills
a few rounds shy of a full clip on "cookie jar experience", though
hope it all worked out ok for him

PS
agree 100% with those who say, do take the mystery out of it
teach them to ask permission, and let them safely look, feel, and hold when they do
they won't be nearly as tempted to get in that "not a cookie jar" when you are not looking
but put a lock on that 'cookie jar' anyway, and buy 'em an Eddie Eagle video
YCMV.. (your child may vary)
 
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All I want to add to this thread is simple.

YOU CAN NEVER BE TO SAFE WITH FIREARMS!

THE 4 RULES SHOULD BE TREATED AS GOSPEL!

SAFETY FIRST AT ALL TIMES!
 
Pronghorn said:
Im also concerned with the amount of people who make the shooting sports difficult by being "too" safe. I have sen countless times when during a round of skeet or trap someone leaves their safety on when they go to shoot, and when they are done they open the gun and put it back on safe to be forgotten the next time.
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Well, they need to train better so that they won't forget.

Pronghorn said:
My cousin has trouble even shooting a rifle off a benchrest because his uncle won't let him put his finger in the trigger until he "takes the shot".
Click to expand...

That's exactly how I do it, even with defensive shooting--my finger only touches the trigger when I've made the decision to fire immediately, or while I'm in the process of shooting a series of rounds. Whenever there is a pause for whatever reason (even between each shot in slow-fire), my finger moves off the trigger and back onto the frame.

Pronghorn said:
A gun is a tool, and if you treat it with respect, you will be fine.
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It's not enough to respect the gun itself, but all the random crap that can happen when it's in your hands and your finger is on the trigger, such as tripping while moving about or somebody bumping into you, which can potentially cause a negligent discharge. Trigger discipline is, of course, one of the fundamental and necessary tenets of gun safety, and is predicated on the idea that the trigger is for shooting only--not resting your finger while pondering the next shot, walking around, or even maneuvering in combat (unless you're shooting at the same time!). That keeps things nice and simple, and therefore easier to follow habitually, and ultimately safer for everybody by making shooting a decidedly deliberate, conscious action on your part. Once it's ingrained in your "muscle memory" it should be easy enough to follow.
 
I can't remember if it was Eddie Eagle video or something else I saw as a kid that said:

"If you find a gun, don't touch it. Tell an adult."

IIRC the phrase would be shown with a cartoon picture of kids finding a pistol laying in some grass near a playground or something.

This may have been a message from the local LE dept/public safety board. I can't honestly recall.

Someone more familar with/better memory of Eddie Eagle care to remind me?

Whether he did or not, I think it's a simple, clear and good message for small children.
 
InkEd said:
I can't remember if it was Eddie Eagle video or something else I saw as a kid that said:

"If you find a gun, don't touch it. Tell an adult."

IIRC the phrase would be shown with a cartoon picture of kids finding a pistol laying in some grass near a playground or something.

This may have been a message from the local LE dept/public safety board. I can't honestly recall.

Someone more familar with/better memory of Eddie Eagle care to remind me?

Whether he did or not, I think it's a simple, clear and good message for small children.
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yes, that is Eddie Eagle :)

my 1st born grandson (who now has a boy of his own, who I have a Chipmunk in my safe for, and great-grandson has learned to shoot it safely, just like his dad did) got an A+ on his 1st or 2nd grade done in crayon presentation on that, complete with a picture of me and my gun cabinet with a big lock on it

both are off hunting bambi together this weekend (daddy has the gun, Chipmunks ain't deer killers), earning each others trust
 
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