Too Much/Too Little for Whitetail?

[drw2514]

I'll be going on my first deer hunt (well, first hunt ever...) this fall in northern Michigan (Escanaba area in the UP to be exact). I'm looking for a good gun to take with me as I don't own a good deer hunting rifle (my rifle collection is limited to a Savage .17HMR and a Yugo M48 in 8mm). I've read tons of threads on THR but have yet to come up with a satisfactory answer.

I'm debating between a Marlin 336 in .30-30 or a larger caliber bolt gun in 7-Mag or .300 Win Mag. I've shot a 7-Mag, but not the others. I'm in love with the Marlin, but I'm affraid that .30-30 won't be enough for the big buck I hope to encounter. On the other hand, I think maybe the 7-mag or .300 might be a little too much for deer sized game. I want to be sure that I'll kill the deer and still have meat left after I do. .30-06 and .308 have never really appealed to me, I'm not sure why...they're just never something I think about when it comes to getting a new gun... I'm a big guy and not affraid of recoil, but I don't want to have to pay $50.00 for 20 rounds of ammo just to get acquainted with the rifle.

My friends dad showed me pictures of a deer he shot up there with his 7-mag. The exit wound was...well...nasty. There was this huge crater missing from the shoulder area. It dropped the deer where it stood, but he said he didn't get a whole lot of meat off that one. He hunts with a bow now.

I'm sure there are plent opinions on both sides of the case, but is there anyone with personal experience with some of these cartridges and whitetail? Advice/opinions/stories/varioius thoughts are all appreciated.

 

[rbernie]

A lot of the answer to this depends on the distance at which you'll likely be shooting. If the average shot diatance is 200+ yards, the Magnums will be your friend. If the average shot distance is less than 150 yards, then the 30-30 is pretty close to ideal.

Since I hunt mostly in areas where the average shot is less than 150 yards, I use the 30-30 a lot and it always does the job.

 

[Deer Hunter]

For shots under 150 yards, a 30-30 is plenty. It's taken more deer than all those other bullets combined. I wouldn't trade my marlin 336 for any scoped bolt-gun.

 

[Jimmy Newman]

As others have said, 30-30's plenty of gun for deer as long as you're not at long range. 7Mag will certainly work for deer and I don't really think it's too much. I don't have any experience with the .300 mag. I don't think you'd get a much smaller average exit wound with a 30-06. The .30-06 is a pretty serious cartridge.

It's not on your list, but I have come to the conclusion, actually, that the 7mm-08 cartridge is my ideal round for hunting deer. It originated as a silhouette round, a .308 case necked down to 7mm. It is a very accurate cartridge.

It shoots with a very flat trajectory and has plenty of power for whitetails (Way plenty. I've shot 8 or 10 or so deer with a 7mm-08. Only one ran more than 15 yards, and that one only ran 50. Several of the shots have been at more than 200 yards.). It doesn't kick badly at all, even in a rifle that is light enough to carry around all day comfortably. It kicks significantly less than the 30-06 or .270 (I started shooting a 7mm-08 when I was 9) but has very good stopping power.

 

[drw2514]

I realized I neglected to mention the distances at which I'll be hunting. My friend's dad has this nice little setup in the woods on private property...it's pretty wooded and the longest shot I can even fathom having to take would be no more than 75 yards. He's hunted there for over a decade with both a bow and a firearm and has never been disappointed.

I guess I've been kind of brainwashed into thinking that bigger is better and huge is best. The .30-30 just seems so tiny compared to the other cartridges. Even though I know that it has been one of the most popular deer cartridges for over a century, I still can't convince myself that it'd be enough. Perhaps after I've actually handled and shot one at the range.

Oh, and another thing...for those of you that've hunted with one...have you're kills with the .30-30 been 'where they stood' or relatively close, or did they involve a lot of tracking? I know this is very subjective and depends on distance and shot placement, but I'm interested in hearing from people with real-life experience.

 

[30-06 lover]

I too was brought up thinking bigger was better, but realized it is completely false when I killed a deer with a 6mm Rem. For close hunting like you mentioned, a 30-30 would be great. I wasn't the shooter, but I witnessed my brother shoot a deer with a 30-30 at 100 yards and the buck dropped like a rock.
-Mike

 

[Snarlingiron]

My very first deer hunt, many more years ago than I care to remember, I had a borrowed Savage bolt action 30-30 with a 4 power scope. The hunting had not been good, and it was the last day at dusk. I spotted a big doe across a plowed field. Everyone had pumped me so full of bs about how much bullet drop the 30-30 had, so I placed my horizontal cross hair on the deer's back and fired. Dropped like a stone. I stepped it off as I went to field dress her, and it was 125 yards. Bullet broke her spine clean in half. For deer here in Texas where in most places it is heavily wooded the 30-30 is just about ideal. I now hunt with a .308 because I have one, but wouldn't hesitate for an instant to go out with a 30-30.

 

[454c]

If 75 yds. is the max,then the 30-30 has your name written all over it.All the bigger boomers will give you is a sore shoulder and a lighter wallet.

I've seen the same results from my 30-30 as my 30-06: a dead deer.

 

[lawson]

in my family, if you bought anything other than a .30-30 as your first deer rifle, you might inspire comments of "that boy ain't right" from the elder generation. it's affordable, it's reliable, and it just plain works.

 

[Selfdfenz]

I agree on the 30-30 being right on the money for the hunt you describe.
You may be surprised the deer you get a shot at isn't even 75 yards away

However....

Unless you can be sure every hunt you'll ever go on involves only 50 , 75 or 100 yards shots, you might consider a caliber that is a little more applicable to different ranges and different opportunities.

Lots of choices when you increase the envelope but my pick for deer would be the 7-08.
-More distance, accurate and good performance on deer
-Make that very good performance on deer
-Recoil is not a problem
-several models are chambered for it including the ever handy Rem. Model 7, the Browing BLR lever action and on the other end of the price scale the NEF Handi-Rifle
-Commercial ammo is available and reasonably priced and reloading is not a problem
Basically the 7-08 (for deer at least) has all the benefits the 30-30 has to offer and maybe just a little more

BTW these observations come from me....a guy who toted as 94 Winny over his own personal share of the countryside over the years and likes the caliiber
S-

 

[rbernie]

Oh, and another thing...for those of you that've hunted with one...have you're kills with the .30-30 been 'where they stood' or relatively close, or did they involve a lot of tracking? I know this is very subjective and depends on distance and shot placement, but I'm interested in hearing from people with real-life experience.

I've dropped deer and pigs with a 30-30, and none moved more than twenty yards from the spot they were shot. I handload, and use a 150gr Sierra over 35gr of RE15.

Load Data
~~~~~~~~~

Name: 30-30 150gr Sierra
Ballistic Coeff: 0.200
Bullet Weight: 150
Velocity: 2300

Ballistic Data
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Range Elevation Velocity Energy Drop 10mph Wind Deflect
0 yds -1.50 in 2300 fps 1762 fpe 0.00 in 0.00 in
25 yds 0.33 in 2202 fps 1614 fpe 0.21 in 0.16 in
50 yds 1.72 in 2106 fps 1477 fpe 0.88 in 0.56 in
75 yds 2.62 in 2012 fps 1348 fpe 2.02 in 1.20 in
100 yds 3.00 in 1920 fps 1228 fpe 3.69 in 2.12 in
125 yds 2.77 in 1832 fps 1117 fpe 5.96 in 3.41 in
150 yds 1.87 in 1747 fps 1016 fpe 8.91 in 5.12 in
175 yds 0.25 in 1665 fps 923 fpe 12.58 in 7.19 in
200 yds -2.14 in 1586 fps 837 fpe 17.02 in 9.59 in
225 yds -5.32 in 1509 fps 758 fpe 22.24 in 12.28 in
250 yds -9.51 in 1437 fps 688 fpe 28.48 in 15.50 in
275 yds -14.81 in 1370 fps 625 fpe 35.83 in 19.21 in
300 yds -21.29 in 1307 fps 569 fpe 44.35 in 23.37 in

This is the load data for my hunting 30-30 load out of my 16" Marlin. I'm ok with this at any shot out to at least 200 yards.

 

[drw2514]

Wow...thanks for all the responses.

For the foreseeable future, any hunt I go on will be for nothing larger than whitetail and will be at distances no longer than 100 yards. That said, opportunities may present themselves...in which case I would just have to go out and buy myself a new rifle!

While perusing THR, I discovered this leverevolution ammo by hornady. I realize it's still relatively new to market, but is there any data out there on expansion and terminal performance either in real-life or a lab setting? I have all the velocity/energy/trajectory data, but I'm interested in how it would drop a deer when compared with a flat nose bullet in .30-30.

 

[Art Eatman]

Odds are that the leverevolution ammo will perform just as well if not better than the round-nosed stuff. The Hornady folks ain't stoopid.

As to the hunt and the rifle, ask the people with whom you'll hunt about the probabilities of time of day to get a shot. If early morning or late evening, when the light is poor, a scope makes a world of difference. You can get a serious case of the unhappy if you can see a really large deer's shape okay, but not see the sights.

Drifting a bit: I've never understood this notion that "Too much gun ruins meat." Why shoot into good eating meat in the first place? Break the neck, or shoot into the heart/lung area. "If you hit the white spot, you don't have to track him."

Hams, inner tenders and backstraps are the choice parts, right? Then the shoulders. After that, all that's left is hamburger, if you really feel the need to get every last bit of meat. (I've never worried about the heart or liver, but that's just me.)

Art

 

[rbernie]

Drifting a bit: I've never understood this notion that "Too much gun ruins meat." Why shoot into good eating meat in the first place?

I've had a 40-yard broadside heart/lung shot ruin half of the off-shoulder meat and put the hurt on the inner tenderloins. The bullet was fairly well constructed (not a Nosler BT, for example) and the POI was pretty low and well behind any major bone structures. I can only presume that the velocity of the round itself was a key contributor to the damage.

I'd love to have someone draw me a pic of exactly WHERE in the neck area I should aim to make that kind of shot placement effective.

 

[Deer Hunter]

I dropped a 9 point from 55 yards with my iron-sighted 30-30 last season from my tree stand. I aim right behind the shoulder, into the heart/lung region. I was using a hornady 170 grain Flat nose soft point. When I fired, the deer stumbled a step, then fell. The bullet passed through the heart and one lung (damaging the other if I can remember correctly) of the animal and made a clean (rather sucking) exit on the other side. I didn't harm any meat. A neck shot is also another popular thing to do, although I find I can place my iron sights on the animal's heart easier than I could on his neck.

The 30-30's a winner when you're hunting white-tail in places that you've described. I know my shots are never very long-range, but even if they were 150 yards away, I would still trust my 30-30. Grab yourself a marlin and start shooting, experience plays a very large part in stopping the deer.

 

[hps1]

rbernie:I'd love to have someone draw me a pic of exactly WHERE in the neck area I should aim to make that kind of shot placement effective.

This link is excellent:

http://home.mn.rr.com/deerfever/Anatomy.html

I'm with Art. If only broadside shot presented, shoot to hit just behind the shoulder about 1/3 up the chest and let 'er rip. No matter how large the exit, very little loss of meat. If deer not perfectly broadside, vertical cross hair on off leg will compensate.

Too much rifle? No such thing IMO. Have shot whitetails with everything from 30-30 to 375 h&h; all did the job as would be expected. My alltime favorite is the 338 Win Mag and can use it on everything from coyotes to elk.

Regards,
hps

 

[Grumulkin]

The .30/30 is plenty for deer as others have said. It's also just fine up to a couple hundred yards; over that, in the average lever gun accuracy may be lacking for dependable kills.

Then there is the ruined meat question. This has much more to do with bullet construction and velocity than it has to do with which gun fired it. I've killed an impala, 2 warthogs and a blesbok with a .375 H&H magnum (these are all smaller than whitetails). There wasn't much meat damage since I used a heavily constructed bullet and the velocity was relatively low (in the high 2,000s fps). If I wanted little meat damage and wanted to use say a 300 Win. Mag. on a lightly constructed animal, I would use a solid bullet if it were legal.

As far as stopping an animal fast, you have several choices. If you hit the animal in the spine in the neck or in the head, it will drop in its tracks. Those areas are small targets though and maybe not the best to go for. If you break major supporting bones in the legs the animal won't go anywhere. If you do a LOT of damage to the heart and lungs, the animal won't go very far. If you are lucky and are using a high velocity round, the shock wave of the bullet may put the animal promptly on the ground if the bullet passes near a vulnerable part of the nervous system like the spine.

Then there is the minimalist approach. I've killed 3 deer with .22 caliber centerfires. The first was hit initially hit in the leg (almost took it off) and then through the diaphragm (bad shooting by me). The bullet was a relatively lightly constructed Remington 55 grain soft nosed spitzer propelled by a .22-250. The bullets did a LOT of damage and after the second hit, the deer went perhaps 60 yards. The second deer was a "bang flop" lung shot (the bullet didn't hit the spine) from a measured 360 yards with a 70 grain Speer Semi-Spitzer propelled by a .22-250. The bullet went clear through the deer in a high lung shot. The last deer I took was with a .222 Remington shooting the Speer 70 grain Semi-Spitzer from about 100 yards. It went in from the front of the chest and out the side; the deer went about 100 yards before collapsing. In the last 2 deer, because of my bullet choice there was very little edible meat damage.

 

[SteveS]

The .30-30 remains a very popular round in MI to this day. All of my whitetail shots have been under a 100 yards. I doubt you'll even find many places in northern MI where you'll need to take a long shot. You other choices will work fine, too. I use a .308 and a 7mm-08, but I know plenty of others that use the other choices you listed.

The .30-30 just seems so tiny compared to the other cartridges. Even though I know that it has been one of the most popular deer cartridges for over a century, I still can't convince myself that it'd be enough.

Whitetail deer are not all that difficult to kill.

 

[SHOOT1SAM]

First of all, assuming you shoot your 8mm accurately, you don't need another rifle; it's not known as the European .30-06 for nothing (and I've never let need be a reason for me to buy a gun!).

If you are set on acquiring another rifle and love the Marlin 336 platform, I'd encourage you to give a serious look at one chambered in .35 Remington instead of the .30-30. This is possibly the most underrated deer cartridge of all time, and if you later decide to hunt bears with hounds, it's a better cartrdige for them.

Sam

 

[dfaugh]

First of all, assuming you shoot your 8mm accurately, you don't need another rifle; it's not known as the European .30-06 for nothing (and I've never let need be a reason for me to buy a gun!).

If you are set on acquiring another rifle and love the Marlin 336 platform, I'd encourage you to give a serious look at one chambered in .35 Remington instead of the .30-30.

Ditto on both counts!!!!!!!!!

 

[mohican]

drw2514 I'll be going on my first deer hunt (well, first hunt ever...) this fall in northern Michigan (Escanaba area in the UP to be exact). I'm looking for a good gun to take with me as I don't own a good deer hunting rifle (my rifle collection is limited to a Savage .17HMR and a Yugo M48 in 8mm). I've read tons of threads on THR but have yet to come up with a satisfactory answer.


You can find some decent hunting loads, or have someone load for your Yugo M48

If your gun is in good shape, then a load coming close to 30-06 is attainable with your 8x57

if your range is within 75-100 yards, just put a ghost ring sight on that m48 and bang away.


one of these years I'll go hunt deer in a state that allows use of a centerfire rifle and I'll use some military relic like my garand or my m95 8x56R


A friend that grew up in PaTucky told me he hunted deer for years with a surplus mauser - Remington round nose soft points in the right spot are very effective.

 

[Art Eatman]

Looking from the side: In the neck, a deer's spine is roughly 1/3 down from the top. In front? White spot.

rbernie, it's up to you to figure out where the bullet is likely to go, AFTER the entrance and all that. At 40 yards, most ANY deer-rifle bullet hitting meat is gonna make a mess.

One of the neater, cleaner shots I ever made was on a fat little buck at maybe 75 yards. I'd been half-asleep in a tree stand, and he appeared in some brush, just looking around. I popped him right through the white spot. Hey, wonderful! Hooray for me! It was not until I got him home and peeled that I found that the bullet had gone on, downward at an angle and into the offside ham. Yuck. I just hadn't realized how he was standing and how his neck was turned, how his body was oriented. My idea was basically good--like your heart shot--but I didn't know as much as I thought I did about other factors.

It's all a learning process.

, Art

 

[MCgunner]

I've had a 40-yard broadside heart/lung shot ruin half of the off-shoulder meat and put the hurt on the inner tenderloins. The bullet was fairly well constructed (not a Nosler BT, for example) and the POI was pretty low and well behind any major bone structures. I can only presume that the velocity of the round itself was a key contributor to the damage.

I've done this, too, with the 7 mag. A heavier bullet than the 150 grain Sierra I was shooting, by that I mean one less explosive at 3200 fps muzzle velocity, probably would have save a lot of meat. I've shot other deer with that gun that didn't distroy all that much meat, was the shot placement.

Still, I got a little M7 Stainless .308 and that big cannon hasn't come out of the rack in many a hunting season. I've killed dozens of deer with my Grandpa's old .257 Roberts and, truth be told, that's really all the gun I need. I thought I was going to get to go elk hunting when I bought the 7 and that didn't happen. Then, I won this M7 in a door prize raffle at a local gun store. I'm quite smittin' with it, about all I use now.

 

[mete]

I didn't see anyone mention the fact that Marlin makes a 45-70 !!! Great gun ,great cartridge . I use Win Partition which will take any deer, but there are lots of choices.

 

[ACP230]

A buddy of mine lives outside Escanaba.
He started out on deer with a Marlin .30-30 and used it happily for years.
The only reason he isn't using it now is that he started wanting a .30-06 and a friend made him a semi-custom bolt rifle.

His shots are just about 80 yards and the .30-30 worked fine at that distance. Standard Winchester and Remington ammo for the .30-30 is plentiful. Some mom and pop grocery stores near Escanaba sell it.
It also goes on sale more often than some other calibers.

My father has a sporterized 98 Mauser in 8mm and killed deer with it out west when he was younger. It will work too.

I have never hunted with a .30-30 but have taken deer from 30 yards to a little over 200 with a .250 Savage. (Lots of deer fell on the spot where I shot them.) Bullets from the .250 are pointed and hold their velocity a bit better than flat nosed .30-30 slugs do, but the two aren't too far off in energy at the start.

I have hunted near Escanaba for about 20 years. It's a nice area.