carnaby
Member
Here it is, if you can think of it and it's not already on the list, let's hear (er, read) it.
Top 16 Ways Criminals will Defeat Microstamping
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KelVarnson
Member
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2007
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- 255
Um, use a revolver?
bigun15
Member
Pick up the brass
Eightball
Member
Disobey the law?
Keep your brass?
Use "pre-law" brass in pre-law firearms?
Replace the firing pins.
Keep your brass?
Use "pre-law" brass in pre-law firearms?
Replace the firing pins.
BridgeWalker
Member
Use a revolver
Buy a pistol in: AZ, OR, NV, etc.
Buy a pistol illegally brought in from out of state.
Use a pre-2010 pistol
Use a stolen pistol
Use an SBS
File off the micro-stamps
So, with the exception of the last one, exactly what they do now.
I really don't think there will be lots of criminals picking up brass to reload just to throw people off the trail, or even buying reloads. Too easy to find other ways.
Buy a pistol in: AZ, OR, NV, etc.
Buy a pistol illegally brought in from out of state.
Use a pre-2010 pistol
Use a stolen pistol
Use an SBS
File off the micro-stamps
So, with the exception of the last one, exactly what they do now.
I really don't think there will be lots of criminals picking up brass to reload just to throw people off the trail, or even buying reloads. Too easy to find other ways.
Wouldn't a couple of strokes with a file or some sandpaper remove the stamp? I'm not really sure where they would put it, (bolt or barrel), but it sounds like a simple matter to either sand it off or to order a bolt or barrel from out of state.
crazed_ss
Member
Criminals wont have to defeat microstamping since there's a very good chance that guns with microstamping will never even make it to market.
Criminals will continue stealing guns from people and having straw purchasers buy them guns from the local gun shop.
Criminals will continue stealing guns from people and having straw purchasers buy them guns from the local gun shop.
OP
OP
carnaby
Member
Wow, that was fast, I was still working on the Poll!
bigun15
Member
Shoot out of a car
james_bond
Member
I vote for #17
ALL OF THE ABOVE.
(sorry CA)
ALL OF THE ABOVE.
(sorry CA)
glockman19
Member
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I vote for all of the first 7.
Zundfolge
Member
Criminals are lazy, they aren't going to defeat the microstamping, they'll just use a combination of old guns and stolen or otherwise black market guns.
I also doubt that we'll see thugs scrounging for brass down at the local gun club. Again, too much work for no gain on their part.
All the microstamps will do is waste police resources chasing wild geese thus resulting in LESS crimes solved, but hey they'll get to hassle more law abiding folk and thats all they really wanted to do anyway (those criminal types shoot back ya know).
I also doubt that we'll see thugs scrounging for brass down at the local gun club. Again, too much work for no gain on their part.
All the microstamps will do is waste police resources chasing wild geese thus resulting in LESS crimes solved, but hey they'll get to hassle more law abiding folk and thats all they really wanted to do anyway (those criminal types shoot back ya know).
sm
member
For the Political Machine and Anti-Gun folks:
Criminals have not paid attention to any Laws up to now, that is why we call them criminals. So they will continue to be criminals, and Law Abiding folks once again are further denied Rights and Means to defend.
-Black market handguns will increase in street price and use.
-Black market , after market parts and accessories to remove/replace Microstamp parts.
-Increase in Crime, in surrounding jurisdictions/areas to access non Microstamped guns from Citizens, Gun Stores, LEO ,and any local National Guard Units.[any similar Military location in smaller towns where weekend drill is held], and Clay ranges where shotguns are rented.
-Revolvers will skyrocket in street price.
-Single shot shotguns, double barrel shotguns will become more popular.
-Shotguns period, including O/U and clay rental guns.
-Blackpowder will become more popular.
-Increase in the theft of lead, such as wheel weights.
-Airsoft /BB guns will be used as criminal weapons more.
-Non firearm tools, the old standby's such as bats, and hammers used more in crimes.
Criminals have not paid attention to any Laws up to now, that is why we call them criminals. So they will continue to be criminals, and Law Abiding folks once again are further denied Rights and Means to defend.
-Black market handguns will increase in street price and use.
-Black market , after market parts and accessories to remove/replace Microstamp parts.
-Increase in Crime, in surrounding jurisdictions/areas to access non Microstamped guns from Citizens, Gun Stores, LEO ,and any local National Guard Units.[any similar Military location in smaller towns where weekend drill is held], and Clay ranges where shotguns are rented.
-Revolvers will skyrocket in street price.
-Single shot shotguns, double barrel shotguns will become more popular.
-Shotguns period, including O/U and clay rental guns.
-Blackpowder will become more popular.
-Increase in the theft of lead, such as wheel weights.
-Airsoft /BB guns will be used as criminal weapons more.
-Non firearm tools, the old standby's such as bats, and hammers used more in crimes.
Stickwick Stapers
Member
File off the firing pin markings and replace them with a stamp that says, "Ha ha, nyah, thppbbbtt!! Love, O.J."
Orthonym
Member
I voted for number six, "use one of the 7 zillion..."
The other ideas sound good, too, though they take more thought and preparation and are thus more likely to be used by a paranoid honest person or smart criminal.
The other ideas sound good, too, though they take more thought and preparation and are thus more likely to be used by a paranoid honest person or smart criminal.
absolut_beethoven
Member
All of the above.
Or in plain English - when was the last time you heard of a criminal worrying about any laws, let alone obeying them?
Or in plain English - when was the last time you heard of a criminal worrying about any laws, let alone obeying them?
Robert Hairless
Member
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- Oct 11, 2003
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- 3,983
Laws like this one aren't about reducing crime. They're about destroying what some people think of as the "gun culture." Logic and reason have no affect on people engaged in a cultural war. Threatening them is a terrible idea because they're already frightened of a culture that they don't understand. If they can't shatter that culture with one blow they chip away at it until it no longer exists.
My hunch is that one possible consequence of this law will be to complicate the criminal justice system horribly. We are watching the beginning of an expensive new bureaucracy, for example, and probably witnessing the creation of new ways to confuse the system. A clever murderer, for example, could pick up the brass he used and throw down a handful of brass he scavenged elsewhere. The new bureaucracy would have a merry old time tracking down the spurious trails.
If the actual murderer is found, captured, indicted, and tried his defense attorney might spend some time pointing at the discrepancies between one set of forensic evidence (the bullet markings) and the other (the microstamped cases from one or more other guns). Since all such evidence involves probability, should a juror have confidence in one kind, the other, or neither? I'd probably vote for "neither" in cases where the standard is reasonable certainty. I don't think I'd be reasonably certain when faced with conflicting evidence.
Schwarzenegger and Kennedy aren't helping the American public with these laws. But that's not their intention anyway.
My hunch is that one possible consequence of this law will be to complicate the criminal justice system horribly. We are watching the beginning of an expensive new bureaucracy, for example, and probably witnessing the creation of new ways to confuse the system. A clever murderer, for example, could pick up the brass he used and throw down a handful of brass he scavenged elsewhere. The new bureaucracy would have a merry old time tracking down the spurious trails.
If the actual murderer is found, captured, indicted, and tried his defense attorney might spend some time pointing at the discrepancies between one set of forensic evidence (the bullet markings) and the other (the microstamped cases from one or more other guns). Since all such evidence involves probability, should a juror have confidence in one kind, the other, or neither? I'd probably vote for "neither" in cases where the standard is reasonable certainty. I don't think I'd be reasonably certain when faced with conflicting evidence.
Schwarzenegger and Kennedy aren't helping the American public with these laws. But that's not their intention anyway.
Zen21Tao
Member
Most criminals already obtain their firearms from means other than a legitimate in store FFL purchase. This will not change. They will have guns that either (through one of the many methods) have the microstamping removed/defeated or they simply won't have to care about microstamping as the gun will not be registered to them.
The only thing microstamping will do is provide a potential new source of reasonable doubt that can be used to aid the criminal at his trial.
The only thing microstamping will do is provide a potential new source of reasonable doubt that can be used to aid the criminal at his trial.
Regolith
Member
I think the most likely steps they'll take is to either
1) Use stolen guns that won't trace back to them,
2) use one of the several million guns that are currently out there that don't have microstamps, probably stolen as well, or
3) file off the microstamping.
These are the easiest to accomplish, and hence most likely to be used. I hope the CA PD's have fun with this massively expensive boondoggle they just set up, because its just going to cost them money that could have been better spent on training and putting more cops on the street, and not actually help solve anything.
1) Use stolen guns that won't trace back to them,
2) use one of the several million guns that are currently out there that don't have microstamps, probably stolen as well, or
3) file off the microstamping.
These are the easiest to accomplish, and hence most likely to be used. I hope the CA PD's have fun with this massively expensive boondoggle they just set up, because its just going to cost them money that could have been better spent on training and putting more cops on the street, and not actually help solve anything.
Big Boomer
Member
Nope they wouldn't care and are most likely too stupid to figure it out anyhow
Nope again too stupid and you expect them to be gunsmiths now?
Most criminals will never fire their gun before using it in a crime and therefore will never go to a gun range to fire their stolen gun anyhow to be able to even get close to brass at a range
see above
They will still use .22's or revolvers just as much as before
possibly, but then again you think they are going to be smart enough to know how to look and see if it's a "microstamping" firearm anyhow? They won't care either way
They will most likely use a stolen gun or one from a straw purchase because they most likely will have already started their rap sheet
Yes, but that is not your average crook, they prefer not to die and just take advantage of their prey
First I doubt that it would set of the primer, second, once again you really expect them to know how it even works or what to look for?
They wouldn't take the time nor the trouble to do that
Once again why would they care? They gun is most likely stolen anyhow
They will continue to use whatever weapon is at their disposal, if they don't have a knife they'll use a bat, pointy stick, rock, scissors, snake, or even a karaoke machine.
Now that's just funny! THAT would be a criminal I would be scared of, because he would actually know how to shoot! What are you assuming they are independently wealthy and can afford the ammo and just do robberies for fun? 10,000 rounds of ammo ain't cheap my friend!
Only when the supply from the streets in the US dry up, but then there is always Mexico.
Most likely not, bat's aren't that cheap, a good pipe can be found at construction sites. Also they are kinda hard to conceal...
That costs money! And besides there are already a lot of criminals there as well, who do you think runs that state!
They would only leave if there was say a hurricane, that drove them away into neighboring states...
did I just write that out loud?!
CajunBass
Member
I doubt they'll worry about it too much. I doubt many criminals actually buy new guns in gun stores. If they happen to get their hands on a stolen one, who cares? It can't be traced back to them. Those who do buy new guns in gun stores are stupid, and would have been caught anyway.
Those poor slobs who are otherwise law abiding citizens, and buy a microstamped gun, aren't really criminals. They break the law. (passion killings and so on) For the most part, they're going to sitting at the crime scene waiting for the cops anyway.
Those poor slobs who are otherwise law abiding citizens, and buy a microstamped gun, aren't really criminals. They break the law. (passion killings and so on) For the most part, they're going to sitting at the crime scene waiting for the cops anyway.
VARifleman
Member
Criminals that get caught are stupid. The ones that don't (ie a fair amount)...are very tricksey and it would be a royal mistake to think that they are stupid and don't know their trade.
I said use a gun that goes back to some other shmo in OC.
I said use a gun that goes back to some other shmo in OC.
I see a more evil probability to this law. The fact of brass being left about could lead to people being "set-up" by dropping old brass at a crime scene. That is pretty much a face value possibility.
However, I also see the probability of civil lawsuits being more common now against the lawful owner of the firearms, in those cases where the firearms were stolen. I'm sure the allegation will be failure to adequately secure the firearm.
In this way, even in spite of the fact that the criminal will get away with both crimes, 1) the original firearm theft and 2) the use of that firearm in a second crime, society will be satisfied to hammer the previous firearm owner into bankruptcy for the crime of which they had not part save for being a lawful firearms owner.
My point, the criminals will not alter the firearm...they'll intentionally leave it intact so the lawful owner gets hammered and someone, anyone pays a price. A price once paid, the case will be considered to have had retribution and focus will fade away.
However, I also see the probability of civil lawsuits being more common now against the lawful owner of the firearms, in those cases where the firearms were stolen. I'm sure the allegation will be failure to adequately secure the firearm.
In this way, even in spite of the fact that the criminal will get away with both crimes, 1) the original firearm theft and 2) the use of that firearm in a second crime, society will be satisfied to hammer the previous firearm owner into bankruptcy for the crime of which they had not part save for being a lawful firearms owner.
My point, the criminals will not alter the firearm...they'll intentionally leave it intact so the lawful owner gets hammered and someone, anyone pays a price. A price once paid, the case will be considered to have had retribution and focus will fade away.
JamisJockey
member
They will do what they've always done. Sure, a few crimes of passion will get through the cracks. Some (expletive deleted) will get mad at his employer and kill 3 people. The gun will be microstamp registered and there will be a big hooplah about how it works, even though SWAT will have killed the guy in a standoff.
No, real criminals won't notice. They will break into a house and steal guns, not caring if they are microstamped. They will go out of state. They will use a Jennings that they bought from another drug dealer 10 years ago.
But the grabbers don't care. Its one more step.
No, real criminals won't notice. They will break into a house and steal guns, not caring if they are microstamped. They will go out of state. They will use a Jennings that they bought from another drug dealer 10 years ago.
But the grabbers don't care. Its one more step.
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