Discussion in 'Legal' started by Treo, Feb 11, 2008.
Sapper you are the enemy of free people everywhere. I hope you get your comeuppence but quick!
Sapper771 , The average Joe, has no way to tell what you will do. After all you can do and say anything you want, and the average joe can't because what ever he says can and will be used against him.
It is just as bad for the average joe who was speeding maybe, to deal with you as it is for you to wonder if the average Joe is a wanted felon.
Since there is No Law that says the average joe must report that he has a permit and has a selfedence weapon, then there is no reason for you to ask.
I know this isn't making your day, but if otherwise the driver is minding his own business, it isn't any of your buisiness.
You have his ID, Reg, and perhaps insurance. You don't need to know what he ate for lunch, where he is going, where he came from a moment ago.
How would you like to get pulled over for a blinking tail lamp and be asked such questions?
I got pulled over in NY state way out west and i was lost. I was asked where I had been and where i was going, and I didn't know. I was stopped at some sort of traffic stop where everyone was checked out, so i wasn't stopped because i did anything in particular myself.
I felt like asking why are you asking me where I am when I don't know, Why are you impeading my progress, when I am minding my own bee's wax?
Do I resemble what ever you are looking for?
I didn't ask the questions i would have liked to, because I didn't want to get busted for being a fool and being lost...
I was asked if they could look in my truck, which I allowed since i had nothing.
That was met with the police sniffing orange juice bottles, and candy wrappers in a trash bag, no less. Poking into things on the seat, behind the seat, and under the seat. A work truck has lots of tools and dirty stuff too.
I was asked about some things like the ropes and chains I had, and they are for working logs, but I felt like saying This is for my kinky habits as it is pretty clear working tools are working tools. When they were done I felt raped.
I live in NH USA and was way west in NY USA. The plates on my truck said so, my ID said so. The police were less than friendly because i didn't know where I had just been, and where I was headed they didn't know either.
I'ld like to think cops are there to help, but as far as i can see they help themselves at the expence of the common joe...
Most of the time my long hair is all the excuse the police need.
Whoops, I'm busted. Somehow I confused you with Wheelgunslinger. My apologies. Corrected
AAR (after action review) - huh? Did you make that up or learn it in mall ninja school?
That's where your post should have ended.
Here's my general thought on this...
You were speeding. That's breaking the law. Most of us do it. Sometimes we get caught. Tough luck.
I agree, given what you wrote, the officer may have been out of line in quoting a non-existant law to you. But he didn't arrest you for a non-existant violation. He just made you nervous. He didn't do anything wrong. (Charging you falsely - that would be wrong)
And in the end...after breaking a traffic law...You got off with a warning. I've driven Colorado mountain passes many times. If you got a warning for speeding up there (considering this time of year there's probably snow & ice on the ground) you got lucky.
So can I be the first to ask - what are you whining about?
What I Learned In Mall Ninja School
AAR (after action review) - huh? Did you make that up or learn it in mall ninja school?
Actually I learned it in the Army. Oddly enough, everyone here BUT you seems familiar W/the term, so I will explain it. An AAR is supposed to be a part of every training event ( and if possible its not a bad idea to do one after a real world event). During an AAR the senior trainer simply critques the training, what lessons were learned, What things need more emphasis. And ,sometimes, what did we REALLY screw up on. (doesn't sound very tacticool now that you know what means does it?) All in all an AAR is simply away to pass on lessons learned and get the most bang for your training buck
QUOTE: agree, given what you wrote, the officer may have been out of line in quoting a non-existant law to you. But he didn't arrest you for a non-existant violation. He just made you nervous. He didn't do anything wrong. (Charging you falsely - that would be wrong)
Do you not understand that the first step to arresting someone , or confiscating their gun ( which I CLEARLY stated as my primary concern ) for a non-existant law is telling the person that they've violated it? When a police officer ( or department) decides that they are part of the legislative branch of government, there is a major problem. When the police have the authority to uses lies to intimidate a citizen to comply W/ non-existant laws THEY are the criminals
QUOTE:You were speeding. That's breaking the law
So is attempting to deprive a citizen of the United States of Life , Liberty, or Property W/out due process of law. which would certainly (IMO) include arresting someone for a "crime" that wasn't.
I edited the last paragraph to remove what I considered to be an overstatement of my position which is:
When the police are allowed to make up laws on the spot based strictly on their OPINION then we ,as a nation , are on a slippery slope to a police state .
He didn't arrest you or enforce a "non existant" law. So he was wrong in what he said. That'd doesn't make HIM a criminal.
But you said you WEREN'T arrested.
In fact, you said you didn't even get a speeding ticket. Just a warning.
So tell me again how the officer "broke the law" or "deprived you, a citizen of hte United States of Life, Liberty, or Property without due process?"
I'm not saying the cop was right.
Listen, you asked how we thought you could have handled the situation differently. I'm telling you - you can handle it differently by not whining about it afterwards. Especially when you A) Weren't arrested, B) Weren't even ticketed, and C) at WORST, were slightly inconvenienced in your day.
An inconvenience mind you, which you brought on yourself by breaking the law.
And just so I don't lose anything in translation over the net - I'm not yellin at ya. Not making fun of or mocking you. Not smart a$$ing you.
You asked for opinions. That's mine.
Ho boy.. I'm probably going to pull fire here for sticking another LEO comment in the fray.. but here it comes anyways.
I always prefered drivers to hand over the CHL with the DL on initial stop. Don't play coy and innocent and wait to hand over the DL until I have to pester you for it. You guys know the drill. I'm not pulling you over to give you panzies.
But, I also happen to be in a state that requires presentation of CHL on contact with LEOs... so not directly applicable. Still prefered if not required though. The absolute last thing you want to do as a driver is have to dig in your glove box because you forgot you insurance or something in there and have an officer see the firearm you hadn't told him about. Get it out of the way right away. Fewer surprises the better.
As to why the officer followed you... Who knows. Could have been waiting for a safer spot to conduct the stop. Could have been trying to force an infraction. Could have been on the phone with his honey and didn't want to stop you until she finished giving him the grocery list for the night. Seen them all. Only one that knows is him, and I doubt he's going to get on here just to tell us. Only thing that is for certain is that if he wanted to nail you for something, he could have. That's the only certainty of working traffic. Any given car will violate if you follow them long enough or look hard enough.
Most of us only deal with police on traffic stops. Nothing else sours people on the police more than that. Police wonder why the hostility exists with them, and traffic stops, speed traps, and fishing expedtions are why. Nothing pleasures me more than working 2 days for free because some cop wants to fill a quota and sits on hill handing out tickets. Much better use of resources than serving warrants or working on those 12-20 million illegal aliens.
Wow, what a thread. It kills me to see a bunch of guys trying to psychoanalyze some cop and decipher his motives, propose he is trying to force probable cause, suggest that he got testy, was inaccurate about this or that and then making the incredible logical leaps that end in some hypothetical confiscation or unlawful prosecution. While at the same time, adopting a similar seige mentality and attempting to catch him in some violation. I'm currently in my 18th year of law enforcement and don't believe that I have ever even met a cop that was inclided to do any of the unlawful or unfair things mentioned in this thread. Of course, you can all cite some type of anecdote where some cop did something incredibly unfair. What you can't cite is the ten trillion times where he didn't.
You can nit pick and spit hairs about the legalities all you want, but in a traffic stop like the one described by Treo, you should be aware of one thing above all others. Be aware that you and the officer constitute a pair of armed individuals. You know this because the officer wears his in plain view and you know about your own firearm. The officer is only aware of the possibility because yours is concealed. He wants to go home to his wife and kids at the end of the day.
On the rare occassions where I am pulled over, I idenfity myself and explaind that I am armed right away just to avoid any type of misunderstanding. Anything else is just foolish like it or not. What if I didn't and suddenly I was mistaken for the guy that just knocked off the liquor store down the block. Or, if my gun bulging under my coat or wasn't as concealed as I thought. Suddenly my routine traffic stop turns into a felony traffic stop. I may eventually set the record straight, but I will do it while face down on the pavement. Or worse, have my motions misconstrued and end up with a .45 slug in the old brain pan. I wont care about the content of the state policy or the AAR.
To me this traffic stop looks better than a text book case. You can be arm chair quarterbacks and pick apart the officers actions and words if you like. But you can be sure that in the course of a week, he has been offended, lied to and victimized by citizens more times than all of the police contacts most of you will have in a lifetime. Sure he signed up for it, but it makes you a little bit more alert and inquisitive than your average bear. Sounds to me like you are lucky to have such quality officers on your roads.
When I drive the gun sits on my seat . As I pointed out I KNEW I was going to get pulled over as soon as the cop forced me to pass him & the gun went into the glove box ( since I had a police escort at that time I figured I was fairly safe from criminal attack). I carry my license , registration & POI in my wallet & I have them IN MY HAND before to cop gets to my car. I don't see the huge potential for the cop to "accidently discover" that I have a gun.
I also want to reitirate that I obeyed Colorado Law TO THE LETTER. When I hear cops, telling me that OBEYING THE LAW isn't good enough, I get very concerned. Again the cop had my CHP in his hand less than a minute after he started talking to me, so how was he in some grave danger before I told him? BTW this same cop pulled me over a couple of months ago ,same cop , same road , same gun ,same glove box, (I didn't have my permit at the time but I was still legal in Colorado.) The only difference was that the first time he never asked if I was armed , he did the whole stop ( again no ticket) W/out knowing that I had a gun. I would appreciate it if someone could tell me how this made him any less safe.
All that said let me pose this question to the cops that have joined the discussion, you pulled my over & informed me that I violated a law that doesn't exist. How would you respond if I politely informed you of what the law actually said? or gave you a letter on State AG letterhead stating that there was no such law? would it do me any good to send a letter to your supervisor? IMO you would add much more to this discussion if you would give us some insight as opposed to berating us for OBEYING THE LAW.
And, just another comment from the peanut gallery....
There is one good reason--a VERY good reason--to let the officer know you're packing as soon as possible.
If I pull you over--and no, I don't have to manufacture a reason; if I observe a traffic infraction, I have probable cause--and I see ANYTHING that could lead a reasonable person to be believe that there's a firearm in the car, you can bet I'm going to dig. How far, and for how long, depends completely on your actions and my observations.
Worst case scenario, if I'm talking to you and I notice that gun, or see that bulge and I can articulate concerning that bulge that it is a firearm--you WILL notice me vanishing from beside your car.
The next words you hear will be from my PA, and it will be while I'm concentrating on the front sight or red dot of an AR-15.
Now, considering all that, if I approach your car, see your hands, see the inside plainly, and I hear something like this: "Sure, I'll get the license and registration, but I want to let you know that I have a license to carry, I am armed, and I have it on me right now. What do you want me to do?"
I'll more than likely tell you that as long as you don't reach for yours, I won't reach for mine. I'll run your license--I've already run the plate--and I'll warn you to slow down, or whatever the case might be (hopefully it's not a serious problem). And, if you have a minute, we'll talk guns.
Yep, call me a JBT, a road nazi, a taillight chaser, a Krispy Kreme assassin or whatever you want.
But I will do everything in my power to go home safe at night, and to make sure that my partners AND the people I am sworn to protect and serve get to enjoy themselves without fear.
And you wonder why some of us don't like cops? You wonder why some of us instantly think your jerks with chips on your shoulders?
Powderman, you still a reserve officer?
I Am Amazed
I am beginning to wonder if you guys are actually reading what I wrote.
1.THERE WAS NO CHANCE SHORT OF THE COP ASKING ME "ARE THERE ANY WEAPONS IN THE VEHICLE" OF HIM SEEING OR OTHERWISE FINDING MY GUN . all the comments about what could go wrong if he did are useless.
2. IN COLORADO I HAVE NO DUTY TO INFORM. IT IS MY LEGAL RIGHT NOT TO INFORM THE OFFICER STOPPING ME THAT I AM ARMED, UNLESS I AM IN ASKED TO STEP OUT OF MY CAR I CHOOSE TO EXERCISE THAT RIGHT.
all the comments about how I should inform the officer are not going to change that.
Now I'm going to ask my questions again ; You pulled me over. You just informed me that I am REQUIRED to do something that I KNOW I'm not required to do. How would you respond. if I
A.) Politely state that there is no such requirement in Colorado & quote the law?
B.) Hand you a letter on State AG letter head stating that no such law exists.
sending a letter to your supervisor isn't going to affect you right then so I'll drop that question.
Wheelgunslinger, I notice you tend to advise this when someone asks a question about dealing with the police. Is this some magical question that should somehow strike fear in a LE officer and prevent them from taking the appropriate action with someone?
This question sometimes comes up with the "You cant do this to me, I know my rights" types. I do not find it difficult or scary to say, "No, you are not free to go."
I can offer this advice: cooperate with the police and put on your happy face. Regardless of what you think about the situation--show respect and have restraint. Do not debate an issue on the roadside--do not debate the issue with the officer at all, it is inappropriate and ineffective. If you do, you will likely be worse off than if you had not. Many courtesy stops result in a person talking themselves into a citation and some get themselves arrested or worse. Having more positive contacts with the police will tend to change a persons perception of LE in general and it is truly up to the offender, through his/her actions, to choose the direction of the contact.
Regarding someone's post indicating that it is "Our right, not our privilege" to bear arms. It's 2008, and in case most haven't realized, it has become a privilege. You are told IF you can legally own a gun, IF you can carry it, WHETHER it must be registered, WHERE and HOW you may possess it. This is a sad fact and it is only going to get worse in the future.
There are no quotas and illegal aliens are not our concern, just ask the federal government. Where I work, INS will not take possession of illegal aliens unless you arrest 50+ at one time. That mentality sends a clear message to us and presents somewhat of a problem for everyone.
Regardless of how politely you state it, both choice A and B will make you look like an antagonistic know it all who is challenging the officer.
I suggest using the Jedi mind trick: comply with the officer's request, be nice, polite, respectful, and courteous, receive your warning, go on about your day.
You will have accomplished several things this way: you will know that you were right, you will have maintained the direction of the contact, you will not have received a citation, upset yourself, or the officer, the officer will think you are a great guy and upstanding citizen, you will likely have shortened the length of your inconvenience, the officer will have less paperwork to complete, and, therefore, have time to catch the crackhead who broke into your house to steal your guns.
Does Washington State not have concealed carry permits any longer or do you just presume that anyone carrying a firearm not in uniform is a crook?
The question is intended to determine if there is a custodial detention or interrogation going on. Many attorneys offer this same advice for the same reason that officers routinely ask why someone won't consent to a search.
Wow, so many questions!
1. Yes, I'm still a Reserve Officer--same thing I've been for the last ten years. What does that have to do with this thread?
2. Yes, Washington State--incidentally, the first in the country to issue concealed carry permits--has the CPL.
So, let me get this straight. Here are the circumstances of which I speak...
a. I pull you over for a traffic infraction.
b. As I contact you, I notice a firearm within your reach. You have NOT told me that you have a CPL. Running your plate does NOT automatically yield this information. This is NOT a "hey, it's cased, I see targets and boxes of ammo or brass, must be just coming from the range" type thing. This is an "open the glove compartment, and I see your hand near a gun" or, "the center console is cracked open, and I see the pistol grip" type of thing.
What do you EXPECT me--or any other officer to do? Just stand there and paste the bullseye on my chest or forehead? Hey, why don't I take off my body armor and do traffic in a T-shirt?
You know, there ARE folks out there who do things like murder cops. They don't have a reason; they don't HAVE to have a reason. Just wearing the uniform or badge is enough. So, how am I supposed to "automatically" know that you're one of the good guys?
You know where the Officer Friendly from our school days went? I'll tell you.
Officer Friendly is laying dead beside a car in Newhall, down in California.
Officer Friendly is dead on a street in New Orleans, shot by a person she was trying to arrest.
Officer Friendly is dead behind his patrol car because four illegal immigrants jumped him during a traffic stop.
Officer Friendly is laying half in and half out of his patrol car, because a drunk and deranged Vietnam Veteran engaged him with an M1 Carbine.
You don't have to like it. I know I don't.
But before you once again paint me--and every other cop--with the same broad brush, I'll extend the same offer I have before: Go sign on with a Department. Even as a Reserve Officer, if you want to do it part time. Do a year on the street.
Then come back and post.
How about it?
How Many Different Ways Do I Need To Say This,
First thanks to the officer that did address my question and while I'm here I 'LL Throw out another. how do I word my response to a cop who just told me I am required to do something I KNOW I'm not required to do ? do I apologize ( IOW admit guilt) for NOT DOING ANYTHING WRONG? or should I just ask for a lawyer right then?
Now back to our show : What part of the gun was NOT in anyway visible are you not reading Powderman? Its not a question of knowing I'm a "goodguy" the cop wouldn't have known I was armed had I not told him.
And because all our friends in blue seem to be ignoring this one we'll throw it out again.
this was the second time ( which means my gun didn't jump out of the glovebox and kill him the FIRST time) this particular cop pulled me over I was equally armed both times how was the cop any safer the second time?
I applaud you Sapper, I really do. I think you're a good cop.
But you have to understand that Joe Driver doesn't know you're a good cop. For all he knows, you might be a little low on your quota and your wife just left you last night to boot. You sabe?
ETA: oh, and you too Powderman. another good cop. your just being here and deigning to engage in conversation with the mere plebians is a good sign.
It Came To Me In The Shower
I now know EXACTLY how I will handle this next time. If it's the same cop I will hand over my CHP W/ my other documentation, he has already made his expectation clear & he's cut me a break twice
Any one else ...
COP: license , registration & POI please.
ME: here officer.
COP do you have any weapons in the vehicle?
ME: ( looking totally confused) Yes officer I just handed you my CHP.
COP: no you didn't
ME : ( looking more confused) I'm sorry I sure thought I did. Oh wait here it is.
COP: Don't you know you're required.....
ME: I'm sorry officer I thought I did.
No admission of guilt, & he can't say I wasn't trying to do it his way
Likewise, how does one know "automatically" you're "one of the good guys?" Just because you're an LEO? Maybe you're the Deputy who just dumped the paraplegic out of his wheelchair (FL), or the one who assaulted the skateboarder (MD), or the one convicted of nine criminal counts, including burglary and trying to steal money from a stolen ATM (RI), or one of those with domestic violence-related restraining orders who continue patrolling with their weapons (MA), or one who took cash bonds during traffic stops and then pocketed the money (GA), or the one who sold an assault rifle to a gang member who is a convicted drug dealer (IL), or...you get the idea. And that's just from the last two weeks, mind you. Maybe not volunteering anything and following the letter of the law isn't such a bad thing.
So, just to recap for my limited intellect:
You carry a gun for your protection.
I carry a gun for my protection.
You want to know about my gun, even if the law doesn't require it, for your protection.
You may confiscate my gun during the stop, again for your protection.
You may return it to me empty, mag out, again for your protection.
What was the deal with my protection again? Who was looking out for that again?
Where I come from, we were taught if you don't like the law, work to change it, but you can't just ignore laws you don't like. Seems to me if LEO's have an issue over "notification laws" (for lack of a better term), they should 1) try to change them; and 2) live within them until they do.
A quick read through Washington state law indicates that the permit must be produced on demand. If you have not asked the question, then they are not obligated to inform you, correct?
So, a person can comply with the law and you will still threaten them with deadly force?
Isn't This America? What Happened?
I don't know how to approach this, We are almost 50 posts into a thread who's primary question is " How do I legally protect myself from the police , while doing something that is 100% legal .
I thought I was a citizen of The United States ?
I'm going to stay out of the discussion other than a reminder to keep it civil, folks.
But, I haven't seen this mentioned yet. The trooper knew you had a permit as soon as he ran your plates. It came up on his computer.
Minor correction: the trooper knew the registered owner of the vehicle had a permit. The operator could be the registered owner's brother, son, father, next-door neighbor, sister's best-friend's boyfriend, etc. None of that is known until he's at the car in conversation with the operator.
Think about how many different people could be driving your car.
Separate names with a comma.