Training for gun-less defense

[Dr_2_B]

A while back I decided to get some training that didn't involve guns. I carry a gun whenever I'm wearing pants and I've done so for 15+ years, but that has been the only tool in my toolbox. This was a big step for me because I've never done any martial arts or hand-to-hand training. In fact, I enjoyed a very conflict-free childhood so I believe I was less capable than the average Joe. I opted for Krav Maga after doing some extensive research.

Some observations:

• Training is unbelievably repetitive from week to week. And that's just perfect. After a couple months, I believe I could now employ some of the stuff for real. I'm certainly not proficient yet, but I'm in a stronger position than when I relied only on a gun.
  
• I was not in as good physical condition as I needed to be. It's better now but I'm still having to work on it. Getting this type of training has the added benefit of improved health.
  
• Krav Maga is very realistic in its approach. It requires no extraordinary physical skills found only in 19-year-olds. We sometimes speak of incorporating the Nike defense after (or before) striking... that means turning tail to run.
  
• People can and do get injured. I took a pretty tough shot to my ribs through a pad that knocked me out of training for at least 3 weeks. I've also had various other aches that are actually badges of courage to a degree.
  
• I now know I can (and will grow in my ability to) deal with some issues for which I would have drawn a gun previously. This could be the difference between life and death as well as financial ruin and criminal liability.
  
• I can not overstate the value of good empty hand training.

 

[Losov]

I took martial arts back in my youth. I actually gave it up because I found I was constantly waiting for someone to make a move on me. I didn't want to live that way so I just walked away from it. Years later in my fifties I found I still remembered my moves, didn't have to think at all, they just happened. I had a BG in a hold screaming in pain when I let him up for the cops. He immediately started to swing on them which was good for me, as they just took him for assaulting an officer and D&D, and told me to have a nice evening.

There's more to the story but the point is this stuff doesn't leave you even if you leave it. Nevertheless, I don't want to put my memory to anymore tests. So despite my penchant for avoiding such situations they are sometimes unavoidable. That's why I go armed now.

I'm long done with dojos, I remember them as dark,hot smelly places above a Chinese or Korean restaurant and filled with serious people with belts of three colors, white, brown and black. Now it's all kids and soccer moms in strip malls tucked between the insurance agency and the pizza place, wearing belts of colors not even seen on HGTV, all piling in and out of the minivans wearing their gis! We never did that.

The stuff I did back in the day not only doesn't interest me anymore, it doesn't seem to exist anymore

 

[Carl Levitian]

Good for you!

All too often, especially in this forum, defense strategies seem to be pulling their gun. It sometimes seems to me, that too many people think that just carrying that gun is the be all answer to their problems, while it just may be the begining of their problems. Use a gun, and many thousands of dollars later in legal fee's you may wish you'd have had another option. Over dependence on a gun can be crippling in the real world. Fact is, you can't have a gun when you travel to Europe, or some U.S. cities. But there are other tools and options.

Krav Maga is a very good art, simple to learn by repetition like you said, can be done by just about everyone. But there are tools to use as well.

A simple cane or walking stick gives you a reach and leverage, and impact, that you can't begin to match bare handed. A Cross pen or other sturdy pen can pierce the throat almost as well as a fine stilleto. A small screw driver can do the same for the stomach area. An AA minimag flashlight used butt to the temple will stun an attacker. Just because you can't have a gun in some area, does not mean you go unarmed.

Living most of my life in Maryland, exept for 10 years in the Army, guns for carry have not been in the cards. But I've never felt like going unarmed, and I've had my share of brushes with the criminal types. Living on the outskirts of Washington D.C., and going downtown often, as well as weekend trips to N.Y.C., I've yet to be mugged, or otherwise victimized. Vigilance, awareness, and being able to use what's available often works. There's options other than just pulling a gun. A good martial art form, some other tools that can be used without killiing, and situational awareness goes a very long way. I turned 70 years of age this month, and somehow I've traveled the streets of Washington, New York, London, Paris, and Rome without a gun, but was never unarmed or that unprepared. Use your head, it's your most important tool. Back it up with a bit of Krav Maga and a stout blackthorn stick, and you're all set. And there won't be any law suits.

One guy I knew years ago had a permit because he had a cleaning business, and carried large amounts of cash to the bank night drop. One night he had to shoot some young criminal who tried to rob him. It cost him a few thousand in lawyers fees, and that was before the perp's family hit him with the unlawful death suit. By the time it was over, he was almost 80 thousand dollars in debt to a law firm, won the case, but owned the lawyers so much he had to take a second mortage on his house, and will work till he drops to pay it off. Was it worth it?

Use all your options.

Carl.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Carl Levitian: A simple cane or walking stick gives you a reach and leverage, and impact, that you can't begin to match bare handed.

The idea of a good walking stick is starting to appeal to me more and more.

Looks like it's going to have to be an Internet buy--I don't see any local retail sources.

 

[shockwave]

Training is unbelievably repetitive from week to week.

Right on, brother. Now, imagine you're talking year to year, decade to decade.

Just as a pearl does not appear overnight, the kind of defensive skills that make a martial artist effective do not arise from a few months of training. It's the layering of successive years of training, practicing the same moves over and over, grooving the muscles and memory, that ultimately lead to the kind of results that the layperson cannot comprehend.

It isn't Asian mumbo-jumbo, either. A solid boxer will have worked on the bag for a long time, practicing combos, so that in a real-life altercation, he or she will be miles ahead of the game - jab, cross, cross, uppercut - playing out a chessgame reading a dozen moves ahead.

Krav Maga is superb defense and, unlike many other arts, is very fast to learn.

Other techniques require a lot of time and practice, but they are oh so well worth it and the sooner you start, the sooner you'll have them.

Maybe the best thing, aside from having options beyond recourse to a firearm, is that the trained person starts to value proximity: you actually want your opponent closer into your workspace. The closer the better. Where the average person will retreat to gain distance, the artist will counter-intuitively advance toward the opponent.

Also, hand-to-hand training teaches several components of Jeff Cooper's principles of self defense, including decisiveness, coolness, speed, and accuracy.

 

[smince]

Krav is great. Also consider taking an AMOK! seminar to supplement your training if one comes to your area:

http://www.amokcombatives.com/

 

[Dr_2_B]

The idea of a good walking stick is starting to appeal to me more and more.

This has occurred to me too - coincidentally my father today was walking with one such cane because he wrenched his ankle, and it brought this subject to mind. One argument against this approach is that it may signal to would-be aggressors that you have some sort of disability, thereby making you a target in their mind.

 

[wheelgunslinger]

The stuff I did back in the day not only doesn't interest me anymore, it doesn't seem to exist anymore

It does, but you have to go looking for it instead of cruising the main drag seeing what's in a storefront.
My gym has something they call a dojo in the back where they teach whatever flavor of the month is cool on cable tv (Krav, MMA, BJJ, whatever...). I didn't renew my contract with them since they started this.

 

[Girodin]

My gym has something they call a dojo in the back where they teach whatever flavor of the month is cool on cable tv (Krav, MMA, BJJ, whatever...).

I'm not sure I'd call BJJ a flavor of the month. It has grown steadily and substantially in popularity for the last 20 years. Its very far from a flavor of the week thing.

The stuff I did back in the day not only doesn't interest me anymore, it doesn't seem to exist anymore

There is all types of training available for people with all types of goals and expectations. For self defense some of it is much better than others. I actually believe that good training is far more accessible now than it ever has been before for a variety of reasons. You can still find other types of training of course.

 

[Losov]

I actually believe that good training is far more accessible now than it ever has been before for a variety of reasons.

Could be. But that's what made my training so much fun so many years ago. After a few initial explorations, I got involved with something no one knew about called Kung Fu. There were no belts, just master and student. I loved the exclusivity of the whole thing. About six months into my training, there appeared a damn TV show by the same name. I knew it was the beginning of the end of something good.

 

[Carl Levitian]

"This has occurred to me too - coincidentally my father today was walking with one such cane because he wrenched his ankle, and it brought this subject to mind. One argument against this approach is that it may signal to would-be aggressors that you have some sort of disability, thereby making you a target in their mind. "


I don't think that may be the case, depending on what type of cane you are carrying, and how you're walking with it.

When I got my medical discharge from the army because of injuries while on active duty, they gave me a typical old fogy cane at Walter Reed. I walked with a bit of a limp at the time. But my old Irish Uncle Pat, gave me a very nice real Irish blackthorn stick. A nice spiky knarly one with a good root ball handle. Since that day long ago, I've always carried a rough rustic looking stick. In my travels in many cities, I've been eye balled a few times, and I think the knarly looking stick is sending out a little different message. I'm rated 50% disabled by the V.A., and I do walk with a limp. but I notice that the aggressive pan handlers stay a longer distance away from me when I have my blackthorn instead of an old fogy crook top cane. They look, I look back, they look at the stick, and I know what they are thinking. It's like sort of a street threater; they know the stick is not being used just for a cane, and I know that they know, and we look at one another and they stay back.

Besides, the advantage of the stick being able to travel anywhere, even right onto an airplane, is too huge an advantage to disregard. And it's right there in your hand ready to go, right now. And if some lower life form gets to close, like right in your face, that's good. A blackthorn or hornbeam stick suddenly swung up between his legs tends to stop a confrontation in a immediate way. And after there will be no legal fees, wrongful death suits, you just walk away.

Never leave home without a good stick.

Carl.

 

[BullfrogKen]

Bridges Walking Companion

Made by a company in the golf club business. Many styles available. The link is only one in the product line. I own two. Our study group made a bulk purchase about 7 years ago. Very well made.

 

[wheelgunslinger]

I'm not sure I'd call BJJ a flavor of the month. It has grown steadily and substantially in popularity for the last 20 years. Its very far from a flavor of the week thing.

Good for you. I've seen Karate, Kung Fu, TKD, and even Tai Chi come and go with the popular culture collective conciouslness. That's what BJJ will do too when something different or better comes along.
Clearly what I'm talking about is just a pop culture "me too" type of instruction. I'm not talking about earnest students or trying to insult your master's Kung Fu at my own peril.

We're talking about strip mall stuff.

 

[mdauben]

A while back I decided to get some training that didn't involve guns.

Great idea! Guns are great fight stoppers, but its nice to have a range of options available, or an alternative if you are caught in a situation where you don't or can't have your gun handy.

I was not in as good physical condition as I needed to be.

Oh, yeah! Effective MA training can be incredibly aerobic.

The stuff I did back in the day not only doesn't interest me anymore, it doesn't seem to exist anymore

Oh, it still exists. Its just not usually the stuff you will find in the local strip mall. I actually think that the "good stuff" is easier to find that it was when I started MA training many years ago. Back then, almost the only way to find the "non-commercial" teachers and classes for "serious" martial artists was through word of mouth. Now with the prevelence of the internet most everyone has a website or email address for their classes.

The idea of a good walking stick is starting to appeal to me more and more.

There are several styles that teach techniques applicable to walking sticks. Most Japanese Aikido schools teach "jo" (a short staff around 4 foot long) fighting techniques. Korean Hapkido and French Savate both teach fighting with regular crooked canes.

 

[quatin]

Escrima/Kali is great stuff for sticks and knives. For those of us who are too young to not look weird with a walking stick a collapsible baton is an invaluable tool where legal.

 

[RTR_RTR]

You shouldn't be sustaining rib injuries that put you out for 3 weeks. Your instructor needs to not pair you with people capable who don't know better than to hold back some.

I've boxed about a year and a half. The most important thing I've learned is that lightweight pro who makes the I beams sound like they're gonna come down when he's working the bag is completely indistinguishable from the 140 pound guy who's never seen a gym in his life.

If I was a cc'er, any situation I can imagine justifying me striking someone (which would have to be due to proximity preventing a weapon draw) also would involve me either, preferably, a) running, or b) drawing my weapon as soon as is possible.

 

[middleground]

I just took my first Krav Maga class earlier this week, and plan to take some more. Probably only a month or two of weekly classes due to finances.

Anyway, I obviously am no expert after one class, but I can say that the class was hard work. It is very much geared to the individual, i.e. it seems you can push yourself as hard as you want. I am currently in pretty good shape, but I was huffing and puffing after we did 10 minutes of warm up drills...

There undoubtedly will be a fitness benefit that comes from this training.

 

[Dr_2_B]

You shouldn't be sustaining rib injuries that put you out for 3 weeks.

You're right. And the instructor agrees with you. We had simply paired up that night on our own. When I told the instructor about it, he was pretty unhappy with the guy - I won't get into the details, but he felt the guy acted wrongly. OTOH, I couldn't find anything the guy did wrong... he was just trying to learn and practice. Anyway, I went ahead and finished the class that night which was probably a bad idea.

 

[RTR_RTR]

The onus is on the instructor. At any rate, mistakes happen. As long as it isn't a recurring theme, I wouldn't sweat it too much.

 

[Boberama]

I don't think BJJ is effective, it's all on the ground. What if there are 2 guys?
I think MMA is fine.
Krav is good.
McDojos suck.
I did Traditional JJ for a while, should get back into it when I can close my eye. More striking than BJJ.

Wow! My .357th post.

 

[Boberama]

Escrima/Kali is great stuff for sticks and knives. For those of us who are too young to not look weird with a walking stick a collapsible baton is an invaluable tool where legal.

LOL. Yeah, I can't imagine going around with a cane. I'm 20. But batons are illegal here. Pretty much everything is. So it's either hands or knife, and I don't want knife, because they will throw me in jail. Happens in every knife fight, you stand no chance with juries here.

 

[kali13]

Kali has some very effective empty hand techniques too that aren't as well known. I've studied a number of martial arts over the years and kali is one of my favorites. Very well rounded-knife, stick, striking, grappling, etc. . That being said, I think the mindset and training methods of krav maga are its greatest strength. It will teach basic self defense techniques and how to employ them. It teaches a very proactive, aggressive mindset, but not to blindly react. Good choice.

 

[Wolfeye]

I've also done some escrima/kali. I think it teaches good techniques with practical, common weapons as well as unusual unarmed techniques. I only managed to qualify for my high yellow belt, though, before the only school in my area unexpectedly closed.