training on a bike.

[thedrewcifur]

a post on here got me thinking ( http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=531632 ) about riding my bike to the range. well my range is a field out in the country. so i was thinking should i practice shooting my handgun from my bicycle? i don't have a car so i always ether have to borrow my mom's car or walk or bike everywhere. since i spend a lot of time on my bike why not train to fight on it if needed. do any of you guys thing this is a good idea?

 

[Ogham]

this is a great idea, in fact i have try it before, just make sure that you keep your FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER because the first reflex in a bike is to grab or close your hand if you loose balance. if you know how to ride a bike without hands like we all do (i ride a lot too and it's something we all rides do) by all mean practice, i dont do it anymore because i live in a city now and i dont have an open range here. if you feel confident in your riding skills then practice, but start with a fake gun or without bullets.

be safe.

Ogham.

 

[MrCleanOK]

Could you do it? Yes. Is it a good idea? Probably not.

 

[B1gGr33n]

I see one of two scenarios here: 1) You flee. 2) You fight.

1) If you're best option is to flee, I don't see how attempting to grab a gun is going to aid you in any way. You'd want both hands on the handlebar.

2) If you have to fight, I don't think you'd want to do that while still on the bike. It would make maneuvering to cover very difficult.

Based on those, I think you might want to practice dismounting from the bike while moving towards cover.

$.02

 

[Kleanbore]

I can't help but think that a little practice with a couple of paintball guns would cure anyone of the idea.

 

[USAF_Vet]

Hmmm, I wonder if you could fire a double barrel 10 gauge from a bike and still keep your balance.

If you do this, please post a youtube video. I could use a laugh.

 

[deadeyedog270]

hmm thats a thought mount a holster on my bike frame like i would a water bottle

 

[thedrewcifur]

i tried it out. i shot at target between 3 yards and 20 yards. i was using a taurus pt111 mil pro loaded with wolf 115gr fmj. i hit all the targets center mass that were 10 yards or closer. i hit about 3/4 of the targets past 10 yards. hard to aim and ride the bike. i also tried an IA drill with me riding my bike, dismounting and placing rounds on target while moving to cover. ether that or just pedal hard out of there is what i would do if attacked on my bike.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by thedrewcifur:i tried it out. i shot at target between 3 yards and 20 yards. i was using a taurus pt111 mil pro loaded with wolf 115gr fmj. i hit all the targets center mass that were 10 yards or closer. i hit about 3/4 of the targets past 10 yards. hard to aim and ride the bike.

You have now demonstrated shooting at stationary targets while riding a bicycle. You did not mention your speed.

Fortunately, no one was apparently injured during the exercise.

i also tried an IA drill with me riding my bike, dismounting and placing rounds on target while moving to cover. ether that or just pedal hard out of there is what i would do if attacked on my bike.

Might I suggest that a much more useful exercise would be to put on some paintball gear and have one or two opponents with an incentive to take you out see how well they can do in avoiding your fire and how well they can do in shooting you or capturing and disarming you.

 

[thedrewcifur]

i was going about 15mph

and thats not a bad idea.

 

[Zoogster]

I have done it with some friends before out of state. Only we were on motorcycles and shooting stationary targets while going around 60mph on a long private paved driveway. We would get up to about 80MPH, pull in the clutch, aim and fire all the shots and resume control of the throttle before dropping below 60mph.

It is challenging, and required letting go of the gas, pulling in the clutch, drawing and firing. Then holstering the gun before resuming complete control over the bike.
A highly risky activity, but we got pretty good at hitting the targets.
Dumping the magazine reduced the risk of a ND when reholstering with one hand while driving.

A bicycle should be even easier without a throttle to twist.


In my current state such activities are illegal as they fall under the prohibited discharge from a vehicle statutes.
This statute and a lack of a similar one where we were is what inspired the idea and encouraged us to try it while we could. If not prohibited at home I doubt we would have tried it.

A proper backstop is necessary, and the risk of crashing is increased, or even worse crashing with a gun in your hand and a muzzle that could end up facing any direction as you fall and tumble.


It is certainly a real skill, and is comforting to know if someone was trying to run you off the road you have the option if unable to outrun or avoid them. But because it is so risky I don't really encourage the action.

 

[kingpin008]

While it sounds like an interesting excercise if performed carefully, I have to join the others in questioning it's usefulness in the real world.

 

[Cosmoline]

Actually it's quite a useful potential skill, IF it can be learned without blowing one's anatomy off. I like the idea of using airsoft or paintballs particularly since so much of this is unexplored turf in the shooting arts.

The practicality is clear. For those of us who ride a lot, we're often in dicey poorly-lit areas on back streets, alleys and trails. The nogoodnicks per mile increase *dramatically* when you leave the main roads in most cities. And cyclists are a frequent target. Sometimes they just knock you down and take your bike and money, other times they do more. There have even been cases of motorists running down bike riders to steal their money.

My own thoughts have been to use the bike to take evasive action and get behind some kind of cover. And I suspect that's the best move for a threat appearing on the flanks or rear. But what about a threat DEAD AHEAD?

I had that question come up a few months ago on a wooded trail when a strange guy stood smack in the middle of the trail and eyeballed me aggressively. Now he did nothing more than that, and I rode past, but it got me wondering--what if he pulled a firearm? On the bike my movement is forward, and turning radius is not as tight as afoot. So it's tough to veer off from the aim fast enough. Drawing and firing might be faster, but I've never practiced it mounted let alone moving. At the time I figured I'd just go into ramming speed and pile-drive him with however many thousand ft. lbs. I personally could deliver, but as I approached I'd be a bigger and bigger target for him and I'd stand a high chance of getting hit.

The methods for shooting horseback might be of some use, but this is mostly an unexplored issue or at least it's been unexplored since the days of the "velo dog" guns. Worth doing some drills, but again I'd strongly encourage the use of non-deadly practice methods like airsoft because so much of this is new. There may be unexpected interactions between cycling and shooting that cause an ND. We just don't know.

 

[Rexster]

While it sounds like an interesting excercise if performed carefully, I have to join the others in questioning it's usefulness in the real world.

From one experience, which happened during my teen years, I think that being attacked on a remote trail is very much a real-world possibility. My action was to veer down a different fork in the trail, which was conveniently available. While armed resistance was not indicated at that point, those dumb-red-necks were not friendly, and I am grateful they decided to stay at their spot by the water, and not get into their truck to pursue.

(Yes, I said dum-red-neck. Those of us who grew up in rural and semi-rural Texas know what constitutes the "dum" part. Like so many terms, "red neck" is a relative term, and in a different context, I might claim the title of red-neck, myself.)

Moreover, I belong to Bikeforum.net, and accounts of brutal attacks against cyclists are posted there from time to time. It happens.

I do not practice shooting while riding, however. If I am moving, it seems that maintaining control of the bicycle trumps firing a weapon, and I can be VERY clumsy when riding with less than two hands on the handlebars. I envy those who can open a snack, or don or shed a jacket, while pedaling. It is perilous for me to reach for a water bottle and take a sip.

The only time I can see myself shooting while riding would be to keep a pursuing bad guy from catching up with me, if he had a contact weapon, or a clear physical disparity of force advantage. The more likely choice would be to stop and engage, rather than allow myself to be tackled or injured with a contact weapon while in motion. If the bad guy has a firearm, well, I cannot outride bullets, so transitioning to pedestrian status might be indicated.

As Cosmoline indicated, airsoft might be the best way to practice this. I cannot think of ANY shooting range that would allow live-fire practice in this manner, if the shooter was willing to take the personal risk!

Hmm, I do seem to remember my employer, a PD, offering a "tactical bike patrol" class. I highly doubt, however, that shooting while in motion on the bike would be part of the curriculum. I'll bet it advocated dismounting before shooting. In any event, my PD has "sim guns" for stuff like that. I will try to remember to ask one of the bike patrol guys about it.

 

[Kleanbore]

The comparison with shooting from horseback has been mentioned.

One difference between a horse and a bike is that unlike a bicycle, a horse will stay on the road, avoid toppling over, and avoid obstacles without continuous control input from the rider.

I can see drawing a firearm if one encounters a criminal actor intent on violence standing ahead in his path....after stopping the bicycle.

I cannot see shooting back at a pursuer while riding. Staying upright and on course would be iffy, hitting anything that one intends to hit would be a challenge, and the risk to anyone that one does not intend to shoot would be increased.

It is self-evident that a rider would have some difficulty controlling the bicycle while shooting, that gun handling would be risky, that his effectiveness would be very much impaired, and that he would present a rather easy target to a gun-armed attacker.

I think a little FoF simulation with AirSoft or paintball equipment would bear this out.

A bicycle is for transportation or for sport, but it does not seem wise to try shooting a firearm while riding one, nor is it likely to be very effective to attempt to do so.

It is undoubtedly a good idea to carry while riding, but I think it would be best by far to stop before shooting.

Another issue that comes to mind is how to carry a readily acceptable firearm in such a manner that it would not increase the risk of injury in the event of a spill.

 

[GeneralBurnside]

I think your time would be much better spent training on a quick and safe dismount, then drawing and firing your weapon.

I can't think of a realistic reason to actually fire a handgun while moving on a bike.

Trying to fire at a target (single-handed) while moving and balancing your bike (also single-handed) seems like a recipe for disaster.

 

[M2 Carbine]

I train mostly for what will probably happen but I also devote time training for what could happen.
Train with the bike if you want to (probably dismounting) but exercise extreme caution.
Besides it might be fun.

 

[Old krow]

since i spend a lot of time on my bike why not train to fight on it if needed. do any of you guys thing this is a good idea?

I agree with those that are saying FoF with Air Soft might be a good idea and not just because shooting from a bike is dangerous. To put it quite simply, I question the effectiveness, even if well practiced, in a SD scenario where lethal force was authorized.

Can you elaborate on when you think that it might be more advantageous to shoot from the bike as opposed to dismounting and seeking cover? I agree with Cosmo, there's very little data to go on in terms of fighting back from a bike. If you guys don't don't have the means to put together a FoF sim, throw some scenarios out there and I can.

 

[Stevie-Ray]

While it sounds like an interesting excercise if performed carefully, I have to join the others in questioning it's usefulness in the real world.

Well, I suppose the usefulness comes in if you refuse to go unarmed, even if on your bike. I've said this many times, but I bike at night in my city, (far cooler) with lights and a safety vest. My sidearm at these times is a Glock 26 in a Kydex holster for it's retention value in case of falls. The G26 is easily controlled by me with one hand, while still being able to control the bike. And one-handed or no-handed, for that matter is easy for me on each of my bikes.

 

[jbkebert]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkjpDZ1O4C0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8c3Ql4tsfr0&feature=related

Bicycles have been used by various military units for many years. Most notably the swiss.

When I do any mountain biking I am usally armed. I carry a semi-auto handgun in a small frame pack. The pack has a zipper that can be opened from either side. I have drawn while biking a couple of times. Dogs chasing me while riding on the road. If needed I would stop if I could not flee and use the bike itself as a small barrier between myself and the dog or lightly armed attacker.

Lets face it when we travel back country roads and remote areas. The reality of coming across someone up to no good. Folks cooking meth, poaching, the list of possibles goes on.

I turkey hunt from a bicycle in some pretty remote areas. It really works better than one would think. A set of rear saddle bags and a simple ATV gun rack on the handle bars. My bow straps into place and I can cover alot of ground quietly.

 

[Cosmoline]

Bicycles have been used by various military units for many years. Most notably the swiss.

True, there's a long heritage of military bicycles. But they're for transport, and the soldiers would dismount and drop the bikes when engaged. I'm not aware of any European units--Finnish, Swiss, Dutch, Swedes, etc. who actually trained to fight from a bicycle. The Viet Minh and NVA used bicycles more than almost any other modern military, but again for transportation. They'd often just load them up and push them.

The Chinese apparently experimented with the concept of a two-person bicycle team where the rider in back would fire an SKS. But I don't know how far that concept got, or if it was ever attempted in Korea, Vietnam or other places. There's a Mao era poster showing the training.

One route on this might be to simply practice speed dismounts and exits to cover.

 

[jbkebert]

I have seen various dicussions about the use of pepper spray from a bike. This seems like a real bad idea. Nothing like pedaling into your own spray.

Like i said if you could not flee from the situation. Dismount the bike and use it a some means of putting something between you and your attacker. The odds of accurate fire while pedaling cannot be good.

Do any police departments who use bicycle cops have any training in SD from a bike?

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

I have only considered the idea for dealing with dogs that are keeping up with me for whatever reason. I can't though think of any other reason why you would shoot from a bike, especially in front of you.

 

[Cosmoline]

I can't though think of any other reason why you would shoot from a bike, especially in front of you.

If a mugger is in front of you holding a gun on you, for example.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

Then you are stationary and its just like shooting normally except you're on a bike. I'm talking about actually riding around like these people are doing.