training?

[pax]

(Note to forum mods: I put this in Gen'l Handgun discussion because I'd like answers from people who haven't had training, or who have had only a little -- and who thus are unlikely to be surfing the T&T forum.)

So a friend of mine and I had a long and interesting discussion last night at a party. We were trying to figure out why so few people get advanced firearms training.

I'd like to invite speculation on that topic from people to whom the following apply:

• You're into handguns for self-defense.
• You have a carry permit, and carry at least some of the time.
• You haven't had any training, OR you have had only as much training as your state requires in order to obtain a carry permit.
• You have no real intention of taking any firearms classes in the near future.

Please, if the list above doesn't describe you, send me a PM with your thoughts. I'd really like this thread to be primarily by & about the folks to whom it does apply.

So how 'bout it, folks? If you carry a gun for defense but don't plan to visit a gun school -- why not? What are your thoughts & reasoning about this?

pax

 

[psyopspec]

I'm in the military, but I have no formal training specifically related to defensive pistol. I have a carry permit, and exercise it regularly.

I would eventually like to take classes from LFI, Front Sight, or one of the many others. The reasons I haven't so far consists of money, time, and money. As it is, I'm a full time student with a full time job. That doesn't leave much in the way of time or fun money. Location doesn't act in my favor either, since the cost of any school rises significantly when you have to travel to the opposite end of the country to attend.

Edited to add: For me the reasons I have not are practical. However, I remember when I was first getting into pistols and learning about the various schools out there. My mind automatically equated them with fringe anti-gov types like the Freemen in MT. I quickly changed my mind when I looked into it a little more, but I'm sure a lot of pistol owners aren't aware of the schools' existence or classify the schools as something for "extremists."

 

[grimjaw]

I do intend to get training, but have the same problems that psyopspec does, minus the school bit. Work requires me to travel often, and I've had to use vacation time for other things. I will admit it hasn't been my top priority, but it's still a priority.

jmm

 

[XLMiguel]

Time/schedule, $$, and location have been problematic. I read, practice, do some drills described in the gun rags, but I hope once life settles down (I;m nearly retired), I can go to a real school such as SIGArms Academy or Thunder Ranch, and maybe get into some kind of league (ISPC/IDPA/PPA).

 

[mattjoe]

All of your four qualifiers apply to me.

What are my thoughts and reasoning for not attendng a gun school?

Because I have absolutely no need or desire to pay someone to tell me how to carry a concealed firearm, draw it, and shoot it, when I already know how, and probably can, faster and more accurately than the instructor can.

If the instructor happens to be someone like Todd Jarrett, or Jerry Barnhardt, then I take that last statement back. For now I'll keep spending my money on more shooting.

 

[Hypnogator]

So a friend of mine and I had a long and interesting discussion last night at a party. We were trying to figure out why so few people get advanced firearms training.

A very good question. I've been toying with the idea of developing a "civilian" judgmental shooting training course for CCW holders, but I've not been able to convince myself that it'd be worth the time and expense to film the scenarios and develop the curriculum. It's amazing that people who spend thousands on top-quality defensive firearms aren't willing to pony up a couple of hundred dollars for training that could very well mean the difference between living and dieing in a deadly force situation.

 

[HSMITH]

Well, I fit your description. I would like to get some training on the specific legal aspects of concealed carry, but I don't feel like I need the firearms training most courses offer.

I have been approached to certify and instruct several courses on CCW and combat shooting but I just don't have the time.

 

[pax]

Thanks for the answers so far, guys. Please keep them coming!

pax

 

[BullfrogKen]

Pax, my wife would like to take training, but insists it be a women only class, or one with only one or two other men who are as new to the skills as her. She doesn't mind if the instructor is a man; and she in fact loves John Holschen. We both took Defensive Folding Knife I from him a few years ago, and she commented on his warm and inviting personality many times. She's met him outside the classroom, but said she was very impressed with his class teaching style.

She feels too self-conscious to train with men.

 

[poppy]

pax, I will meet your criteria once I get my CCW license here in Ohio.

I was a gun enthusist/collector before CCW was available here. I have usually had one or more handguns readily available for HD.

I want a carry permit so that I have that option. I may be like my buddy who got his permit, has a nice Kimber Ultra Carry with leather and puts in some practice time. He has never carried.

I liken it to my sports car. One reason I got the Miata is because it is a poor man's race car. In order to actually do some track time, I had to take a minimum course on racing. In the 11 years that I have owned the car I have only "raced" it once. I got the car to drive it, not race it.

I have handguns because I like firearms, and I like shooting them. I have several that are potential carry pieces, and may carry them from time to time.

This same buddy of mine as asked me to join him sometime next summer for an advanced training course. I may do it for the fun and experience, but it would not necessarily cause me to carry more. poppy

 

[P. Plainsman]

It's purely a matter of not getting off my butt and getting the training. I need and want training. It's more a problem of time than of money in my case.

Perhaps I am also slightly put off by the prospect of being the only wheelgunner in a class? I tote a snubby and use an N-frame revolver as my nightstand gun.

 

[spacemanspiff]

i was offered to go to a class for advanced handgun, by the instructor who taught my CHL class. i chose not to, since he and his range safety officers could not maintain (and seemed disinterested in) a safe range, both on and off the line.

there are some drills i'd like to get more practice in, such as shooting on the move, the use of cover, etc, but thats more for fun than to actually train.

since i started shooting four years ago, i have noticed my skills have greatly improved. i know i can get good hits on paper at the range. how that will translate into a defensive situation, i do not know. would the advanced training be able to put my body through the adrenalin rush that i am sure to go through when my life is indeed in danger?

 

[carebear]

We could go out in the woods and I could shoot near you Spiff, that'd get your adrenaline up.

You could even have an airsoft gun and shoot back, but no head shots, I'm too pretty to bruise.

Pax,

Cost and (primarily) time are the big factors for me as well. Although I think I'm mentally short-changing myself by having internalized I have to go to a "name" school for it to be worthwhile. There's some guys up here who are guest instructors at Gunsite et al. if I'm reading their creds right.

 

[timothy75]

Like Matjoe mentioned I think alot of people who've been into shooting all their life dont feel they need it because they can shoot. For new shooters who want to get up to speed quickley I think its a good idea. Also I dont think a civilian wants to pay 1000$ when their not police officers and live a low risk lifestyle. I dont think cops would pay it either but they get grants and 95% discounts.

 

[ChristopherG]

My experience has been that someone interested in becoming a better shooter can do so with observation, reading, and practice, practice, practice (the best practice being competition with other shooters). If I had the chance to take a class with Jerry Miculek, I'd probably take it (being primarily a wheelgun shooter); but in general, I feel capable of making progress as a shooter on my own through disciplined practice and study. My focus has always been on shooting per se; and as far as shooting goes, I doubt there are many trainers out there who can tell me something I haven't already read or heard or tried (I'm honestly not trying to sound like a bigshot or smartaleck, here--it's just a function of the media society, of widespread paper and electronic information). I know there are shooters out there who shoot my kind of shooting (practical/IDPA/USPSA), with my kind of gun, better than I do; but basically, they're better than me because they shoot more than I do. That's a function of time and money, not training.

As for the non-shooting 'tactics' part, I think I take a rather relaxed view of this side of things because of who I am and where I live. My life is a pretty low-stress affair; I don't think I stand a high chance of running into a hairy situation. And, I'm a reasonably physically capable, six-foot ten-stone guy. Perhaps its foolish thinking, but in my mind, I'm not too concerned about threat situations that aren't deadly serious; and if such a situation does arise, I imagine I'm as well equipped as most folks to make a decision about the use of deadly force, and better than most to actually use it.

So the short answer (obviously far too late) to 'why not get training' is: I don't think I need it for shooting, and I'm not worried enough about tactics to seek it out (and pay for it, etc.). It's a good, thought-provoking question, Pax; sorry if my thoughts spilled over a bit.

 

[RavenVT100]

One should always avoid the trap of assuming one knows enough about a given situation to be competent in it. The value of training is that it can show you what you did not know so you then know what to go and learn.

The tendency for individuals who are unskilled in a given discipline to hold overinflated views of their own competence has been scientifically documented.

http://www.phule.net/mirrors/unskilled-and-unaware.html

Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments

Abstract
People tend to hold overly favorable views of their abilities in many social and intellectual domains. The authors suggest that this overestimation occurs, in part, because people who are unskilled in these domains suffer a dual burden: Not only do these people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices, but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it. Across 4 studies, the authors found that participants scoring in the bottom quartile on tests of humor, grammar, and logic grossly overestimated their test performance and ability. Although their test scores put them in the 12th percentile, they estimated themselves to be in the 62nd. Several analyses linked this miscalibration to deficits in metacognitive skill, or the capacity to distinguish accuracy from error. Paradoxically, improving the skills of participants, and thus increasing their metacognitive competence, helped them recognize the limitations of their abilities.

As much as we love to love the APA, this paper is worth reading. It hilights the importance of training, especially in areas that we didn't think we required training in.

The downside is that the more training one engages in, the more a person is aware of their shortcomings and it can actually cause you to feel, in the short term, less competent overall. That is, until you begin practicing the new things you have learned.

 

[Ankeny]

[QUOTEWe were trying to figure out why so few people get advanced firearms training.][/QUOTE]

In my case, it's very difficult for me to find advanced firearms training without paying through the nose for the beginning and intermediate training. A couple of schools have offered to waive the initial requirements, but the expense still causes me to pause.

I think a lot of folks are under the misconception that defenseive pistol training is all about skill development with a handgun. In reality, the act of shooting the gun constitutes perhaps one third of the equation. There is a huge difference between pure pistolcraft and gunfighting.

The tendency for individuals who are unskilled in a given discipline to hold overinflated views of their own competence has been scientifically documented.

It's also true that people who are extremely skilled in one facet of firearms tend to think they can extrapolate skills from one area into another area. For instance, I bet we all know at least one tactabilly who thinks he can whip Rob Leatham in a gunfight because they have superior tactics. Likewise, I would imagine we all know guys who are pretty good in the gun games who believe being adept with a pistol on a square range is all they need to survive a deadly encounter. The last thing I need is some guy trying to teach me how to shoot, but I sure could use some training on gunfighting.

 

[XD Niner]

When I bought my first pistol, I took an "advanced" CCW class about a month after I picked up the gun. This gave me a few weeks to get familiar with the pistol prior to taking the formal training. That seemed about right as it allowed me to get comfortable with my new weapon but not yet pick up too many bad habits.

I then took my CCW class. I termed it advanced because it not only covered all the basic safety and CCW issues but it offered an introduction into self-defense. The instructor was a certified NRA instructor as well as the local SWAT instructor. He is also a former Marine shooting instructor. As you can imagine, he is a font of knowledge as well as being a great coach. It only cost $125 to boot which is one of the best investments I've ever made.

A couple of weeks ago I took a Tactical Pistol 2 course from Bill Jeans of Morrigan Consulting at our local range. Bill is a former chief instructor for Gun Sight. Having him come to our local range made it a pretty inexpensive two days. I received even more self defense training and we had a chance to shoot at night. Again, it was a great investment of money and time.

Like everyone else, I never seem to have as much time to train as I would like. However, I wouldn't want to carry a pistol without at least the training I've had to date. I intend to take some type of course each year in addition to twice weekly practice sessions at the range.

 

[middy]

$$$

 

[spacemanspiff]

We could go out in the woods and I could shoot near you Spiff, that'd get your adrenaline up.
You could even have an airsoft gun and shoot back, but no head shots, I'm too pretty to bruise.

i cant tell if its my spidey sense or gaydar going berserk when some guy wants to take me to a secluded place while mentioning how pretty he is?

 

[dav]

Pax, it's all about money for me.

Also, frankly, there is no way to know whether the training is going to be any good, even if someone else who took the class thought it was good for THEM.

If we could watch the class being given, and then decide whether to pay for it or not, I'd try a few out. Unfortunately, in the real world, that means most people would think they got enough out of the preview and never take the class.

But buying an EXPENSIVE pig in a poke is hard for us practical types to do.

$1,000.00 on a gun? Hey, I've got a thousand dollar gun for my money. A thousand dollar gun course? I may not have ANYTHING for my money. And until I've spent the thousand (which I do not have) I will never know if it would have been worth it to me, or not.

 

[Standing Wolf]

Very little formal education in firearms here.

By the way, one trains a dog and educates a person.

I'll take a class or two to become an N.R.A.-certified safety instructor some time in the next year. That's primarily because I've reached an age at which people think in terms of repaying the fraternity of shooters for its kindness and generosity, as well as passing on the accumulation of knowledge to succeeding generations.

I'm first, last, and always a bullseye shooter. I may someday sign up for a bullseye shooting clinic, although I have a suspicion the folks at my local acupuncture clinic may be of somewhat greater value.

If I were interested in combat-style shooting, I might take a course in it, or if I thought it more than very remotely likely I'd ever need to clear leather to save my life and/or property.

I have no trouble spending money—heck, Visa's got money by the tanker truck!—but find the older I grow, the more niggardly I become with time. A half-day course would appeal to me much more than a week at the Thunder Stick Ranch, or wherever.

 

[hillbilly]

Define "advanced?"

I teach CCW for the state of Arkansas.

My course is pretty basic.

But for lots and lots and lots of students, their experience at my course is pretty darn advanced.

To people who've had real firearms training, my course is by no means advanced. But for about 95% of the folks who come through, they think it's really advanced.


I've been to two advanced long-range rifle courses.

And the reason I haven't been to more advanced training is time to go, and money to get there.

hillbilly

 

[pax]

hillbilly ~

Thought I'd defined "advanced" in my first post. For the purposes of this thread, "advanced firearms training" means any training over & above that required by law in order to CCW in your state.

Standing Wolf ~

To educate someone is to provide them with facts about something. To train them is to teach them how to do something. When I learned to drive, I took Driver's Education (sitting in a classroom taking notes) and followed it up by taking Driver's Training (ain't dual brakes grand?) College education is followed by on-the-job training. Firearms schools generally provide both education and training -- but it's the training that is generally considered most crucial.

All ~

Good answers so far. Please keep them coming!

pax

 

[SRYnidan]

Pax

I guess that I fall into your test group for this.
I have been shooting for years first IPSC (the game is just not training) then a Paladin group here in Las Vegas.
I got the chance to take John Farnam’s urban Rifle (pistol and shotgun) some years ago and it was excellent.
I have not done anything since and the biggest reason is money. I am retired Air Force working civil service and have two teenage boys. There just isn’t enough to go around I guess.

The other issue is that if I am going to drop good money I really want to go somewhere that I think the training will be excellent and that generally ups the price even more or at least adds travel and lodging to the equation.