transistioning to BP revolvers. Suggestions for sourcing conicals?

[perldog007]

Well here is my story (again) sad but true. I was looking for a rough and ready SA to retire my Smitty 25-5 which was never supposed to be fired, much less carried to work. Now it is real, meaning a little scuffed up and well loved. But while not a hardcore survivalist, long periods in the woods don't phase me. Not the best environment for a N Fram6 e target revolver that has already paid it's share of the rent.

For the way that this man loafs in the woods, Eastern U.S., a .45 Colt is about right for my tastes. Standard loading. So I looked at a Ruger or Uberti Cattleman or some such. Reading I learned of Elmer Keith and his 1851 Navy, read about Buffalo Bill and his Remington. Finally decided on the 1858 clone. It would do what I wanted with 35 grains of black behind a conical and with 40 grains and a round ball would top 1000 fps.

With quick change cylinders reloading or changing loads for a shot would be possible. Then before I ever fired my 1858 I bought a second one, then an 1851, finally an 1860 all Pietta brand.

After cleaning them all were capped and practiced with. After 6 weeks of practice I finally loaded them up. I treated them like regular guns, securing them when not in use and carrying with as one would a working gun.

Got around to shooting them, the Pietta 1860 developed 'flippy barrel after one cylinder of 30gr / .454 ball. Still kept five in the money on a reduced b-27 at 25 yards with one called flyer. A couple of taps on the retaining pin and the arbor was again tight.

The 1858 reminds me of a Taurus model 10 .38 service revolver. It just plain works but the colts feel alive in my hand, especially the 1860.

The 1851 walked right in to the orange on a reduced b-27 at seven yards and warrants further testing loaded to Colt's instructions. The 1858 needed just a bit of front sight held up to be spot on. All performed past expectations.

The 1860 is my daily. I can see this gun loaded with max powder and ball going along on air rifle hunts for small varmints just in case. Some care is needed in operation to keep caps out of the action. The 1851 I could see as a companion to rifle or shotgun for smaller jobs and also perfect around ranch and camp when one doesn't 'need a gun'. Small game for sure.

Now I'm ready to try some conicals, was wondering if any hunter gatherers here have favorite sources? Ideally would like something like the LEE 200gr conical for my Piettas but would like to know if anyone has other configurations that have worked for them.

 

[swathdiver]

The Kaido conicals are proven big-game killers for your sixguns. They are based on Elmer Keith's designs, modified for use with cap and ball.

Kaido and the fellas down in Miami and elsewhere have taken monster hogs with them and Duelist1954 has tested them and posted his videos to youtube.

You can read about them on this forum and others but the yahoo percussion revolvers group and the internationalblackpowderhandgunhunters group is where you'll find the most detailed information.

Pointy conicals punch two holes through game and don't do too much damage. Keith type bullets are legendary for the damage they inflict on whatever they hit. They penetrated more milk jugs than a .30-06 as shown by Mike B. in his youtube videos!

Of course, don't underestimate the effectiveness of the soft lead round ball. It has accounted for more game than perhaps any other in history and the Johnny Rebs much preferred it over the conicals.

 

[perldog007]

My google fu was weak on that score, I did find Kaido's email and reached out to him. I am thinking failing a Kado maybe the Lee 200 gr conical mold for the Army and I am undecided on the Navy. Although I think I would mostly use ball in my 1851. With a full charge I am pretty sure we are getting 1200 fps and I don't buy the 'equivalent to a .380' standard party line, having shot things with both...
I could see conicals in the 1851 if it was carried as a companion to rifle or shotgun for smaller jobs, such as a chance racoon while deer hunting. ( cleaned the last one with a swede 5.6x56 and got away with it, but pelts count sometimes... ) also to prevent Gobblers within 25 yards while armed with a deer rifle.... rabbit or squirrel for pot meat...

 

[rodwha]

I second a wide meplat. I'm not interested in RN bullets as they just don't perform nearly as well.

Kaido's bullets are a bit pricey at $50/100 + shipping, which is why I got into casting. And I tried to order a mold from him but Lee, who makes his molds, only makes a run of his when they have time and he has enough demand. I waited a very long time and went to Accurate Molds and created my own designs with wider meplats and short for their weight so as not to take up powder capacity (my 195 grn is only .460" long taking up no appreciable capacity).

If you are serious about conicals I suggest you get into casting. I bought scrap lead at $1/lb which makes my 195 grn WFN bullets VERY cheap in comparison.

DD4lifeusmc casts a few designs at a very reasonable price.

You'll need to modify the loading window on your Remington for sure unless you plan to load off the gun. I'm uncertain about the Colts.

 

[perldog007]

I second a wide meplat. I'm not interested in RN bullets as they just don't perform nearly as well.

. I waited a very long time and went to Accurate Molds and created my own designs with wider meplats and short for their weight so as not to take up powder capacity (my 195 grn is only .460" long taking up no appreciable capacity).

If you are serious about conicals I suggest you get into casting. I bought scrap lead at $1/lb which makes my 195 grn WFN bullets VERY cheap in comparison.

DD4lifeusmc casts a few designs at a very reasonable price.

You'll need to modify the loading window on your Remington for sure unless you plan to load off the gun. I'm uncertain about the Colts.

Can your design be purchased from Accurate? I had some stunning success with a 255 gr Keith in .45 LC loaded mild for my Smith, around 800 fps and they knocked down white tail like they had about 600 fps more whoosh....

 

[rodwha]

Indeed they can be. He keeps your designs in his catalog. This is the 195 grn WFN I ordered and really like:

http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-195C-D.png

I've also had him create a hybrid design between that one and my 285 grn meant for my Ruger that weighs 245 grns, but I've not ordered it yet. This is it:

http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-245C-D.png

I also created a lighter version that weighs 170 grns to get the velocity up in hopes it had an increased potential for expansion:

http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-170C-D.png

 

[perldog007]

Indeed they can be. He keeps your designs in his catalog. This is the 195 grn WFN I ordered and really like:

http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-195C-D.png

Outstanding, I heard back from Kaido so it looks like I'll find a conical I can live with one way or the other. I was also interested in Kaido's .36 mold for pietta barrels. Had occasion to shoot a small varmint with my 1851 loaded with ff Pyrodex according to Colt's instructions. Good thing that squirrel was already earmarked for gravy. The round ball might be the bees knees in human stopping at max velocity but it doesn't treat small game with any kind of respect when you fill 'er up and seat a tight fitting ball....

I'm very excited to find a good conical, that would completely fulfill my mission to retire my Smith from outdoor duty. It is a fine gun, but a bit delicate for that sort of thing. I had such good luck with 255gr hard cast Keith type bullets and moderate velocity ( 800 fps on paper, chrono averaged 791 fps ) on deer and small game.

Here is my favorite woods loafing outfit before I discovered BP. .45 Colt worn in Bianchi 111 crossdraw and the I frame 1938 New Pocket .32 long in a modified J frame Jay-Pee holster. Management insisted on her gun being in the photo. Personally don't have much use for a TP22 in the woods....

That new pocket was surprisingly accurate once I figured out that the crush fit on the barrel put the blade just a tad to the left. However, the 1851 is everything I want in a small/mid-bore woods gun. My brace of Colt replicas will be heavier, but I can make that trade for the versatility and sheer fun of BP.





Have to say, I'm very impressed by the way round ball over a chamber full tears stuff up as well. I just don't fancy shooting anything like a hog with round ball. I can see myself carrying my 1851 with conicals when one "doesn't need a gun" like a kit gun or .38 .

P.S. that HK speedloader carrier will hold .44 cal cylinders for NMA and 1860 if you take the plastic cups out of the bottom.....

 

[rodwha]

One of the guys that hunts with the group that hog hunts with cap n ball pistols uses a Walker with 2F T7 and prefers a ball over the Kaido bullets. He says the wound is much more wicked within 25 yds.

 

[Crawdad1]

You'll need to modify the loading window on your Remington for sure unless you plan to load off the gun. I'm uncertain about the Colts.

Isn't that the problem with the conicals on the 1858 Remington and the 1860 Colt? Loading them through that small loading window in front of the rammer?

Rodwha, what is the heaviest conical you loaded through a unaltered 1858 Remington loading window?

 

[Crawdad1]

Good thing that squirrel was already earmarked for gravy. The round ball might be the bees knees in human stopping at max velocity but it doesn't treat small game with any kind of respect when you fill 'er up and seat a tight fitting ball....

I take it your '51 Navy really splattered that squirrel.

 

[rodwha]

Crawdad: I haven't loaded with any conical without modifying it. Even my 170 grn WFN wouldn't fit though. I've heard the 200 grn Lee won't fit in a Pietta NMA either.

I didn't think the Colts were as hard to load as the Remingtons (Pietta). I've not had a Colt yet...

 

[Crawdad1]

If you take it from a strictly hunting point of view it isn't much of a problem as you can just load off the revolver and with a replacement cylinder that are readily available switch cylinders then recap out in the field if its necessary. But to get that added weight and stopping power of a conical that's a small inconvenience which may or may not be necessary because how many times has someone shot at a critter more than six times.

I have to do the same exact switch using my conversion which isn't a problem with either a Colt or Remington design.

 

[perldog007]

squirrel gravy recipe

I take it your '51 Navy really splattered that squirrel.

To make squirrel gravy, first load your cylinder up with powder weak or strong! Leave just enough room for the ball and seat it firmly making sure you get a lead ring and good seal.....

I whacked one once with a swede 5.6 x 65 Mauser in anger . Damn squirrel started barking at a nice fat doe that had just come into view at around 60 yards sending her back into the thick. That animal did not require gutting and except one front leg (whereabouts unknown) all the meat was intact. Lucky hit. Maybe 30'.. no kind of skill required.

One with a .45 colt 255 gr Keith hand load in my Smitty. Very clean kill. rather large hole but other than that fine for small game. Another violator of the "don't bark at me when I'm trying to see a deer" rule. This time no deer was present that I could observe. Simply a reactionary squirrel that got what he deserved.... Damn fine hit, 30 paces so maybe 25 yards or so?

Can't help but think that my Navy with something like Kaido's 160 gr conical with the broad meplat would be ideal for a kit/woods gun. A bit larger than my 1938 Colt New Pocket but at least as accurate every bit the equal of my old model 10 loaded with .38 special 158 gr RNL to my mind.

Woods loafing is a high art, and nothing is more individualized than choice of arms among serious woods loafers. From the walking stick, to heavy artillery I've seen a wide range and heard even greater tales...

I like a .38 or .22 revolver for those treks where one doesn't 'need a gun'. After shooting the 1851 replica I can see what my new favorite might be if I can find conicals I like in it. I am loathe to make target loads for the wild and that round ball over a chamber full seemed a tad bit overly destructive to me...

That I could basically duplicate the ballistics I so enjoyed with the 255 gr Keith handloads in my 25 is very appealing to me. Might even tack on a few fps and safely push 900 fps from the 1860. A nice 160 grain flat nose in the .36 would be lovely. I just got an email response from Kaido, his .36 pietta mold might be my first mold purchase.

Rod has a nice 245 grain design on file with accurate molds.. Very tempting for the .44s. I wouldn't mind regular conicals for target work if they proved out, but I'm a big fan of that flat face solid for game. Mostly on the strength of Ross Seyfried's writing back in th' day, he who shot critters of a magnitude I will probably never see.

 

[perldog007]

One of the guys that hunts with the group that hog hunts with cap n ball pistols uses a Walker with 2F T7 and prefers a ball over the Kaido bullets. He says the wound is much more wicked within 25 yds.

I can believe that on smaller hogs. There was one write up of round ball in a Walker on a hog but it was not even the right size ball according to the article so that is hard to accept as a guide.

The only way to find out is to Josey Wales a pig with a .44 in each hand, one round ball and one Kaido! But seriously I do like the heavy slugs on game and agree that round ball at higher speed is more destructive. My concern would be getting through the gristle plate on a huge boar. Ross Seyfried and his reports of shooting cape buffalo for ever biased me towards penetration and a flat face slug....

 

[Crawdad1]

My 1860 Army does a real sweet splattering job on groundhogs with its 141 grain 454 round ball. I just wish I can get a good bead on a coyote one of these summers. I see their tracks all over the place but nothing else.

I much prefer the '51 Navy for Summer hunting as my 1860 Army when fully charged gets a bit heavy riding on my hip all day but until I can convince my friend to let go of his Second Generation 'C' Series '51 Colt Navy that I've had my eyes on for awhile my 1860 Army repro will have to do.

 

[45 Dragoon]

It may futile for a conical in some revolvers. The later Uberti's 44 cal. barrels have a faster "conical friendly" twist.

Just a thought . . .

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com

 

[rodwha]

I don't have a slow twist to say, but with my 195 grn WFN at just .460" long ought to do ok, and if not I'd think the 170 grn version at just .400" long would.

 

[rodwha]

I had Tom at Accurate Molds work me up a short bullet for an Uberti Colt Pocket .36 that weighs 100 grns with a wide meplat. There are several other designs there too you may be interested in. Here's the page:

http://accuratemolds.com/catalog.php?page=6

 

[perldog007]

My 1860 Army does a real sweet splattering job on groundhogs with its 141 grain 454 round ball. I just wish I can get a good bead on a coyote one of these summers. I see their tracks all over the place but nothing else.

I much prefer the '51 Navy for Summer hunting as my 1860 Army when fully charged gets a bit heavy riding on my hip all day but until I can convince my friend to let go of his Second Generation 'C' Series '51 Colt Navy that I've had my eyes on for awhile my 1860 Army repro will have to do.

I have found the full flap holsters in a crossdraw hang the easiest on me. And definitely the 1851 is a bit lighter on the hip. I have mine tricked out so I can wear them open top for venues where a smart ass game cop might accuse you of concealed weapon for the flap. Only heard of it once years ago in one state but it stuck in my head....

Here is a happy loafing outfit, my 1860 on the belt, possible bag and Cold Steel Bushman with Cold Steel Roach belly on a shoulder strap made from my Sporran belt when I was 120 lbs larger...



The knives and possibles bag don't seem that heavy but wearing them separate makes a difference. I tried a lighter belt, but the wide one is easier on me personally.

Here is my current 'kit gun' a .32 long on a true .22 frame ( Colt 1938 New Pocket) and I am very happy to replace it with my 1851 and maybe a '62 at some point. The extra heft of the Navy is fine by me with that longer barrel and more versatility. Although this little snubby is a tack driver, it has paid rent since before WWII by the rack number on it's butt. Time for it to retire and enjoy life I says.



Also, the flat nosed conical at 750 fps or so and 240 grains makes the 5.5" 1858 interesting for a 'just in case' sidearm afield, and the shorter barrel maybe indicated if one had to use such for personal defense as Mr. Hovey Smith stated in one of his videos. Don't load it with a lubed patch under the slug for six months though :/ he's lucky they all came out of the barrel IMO.

 

[Malamute]

Your thread has been interesting to read, and I understand the fun of working with new guns, but what have you broken or had problems with in your Smith 45?

...fulfill my mission to retire my Smith from outdoor duty. It is a fine gun, but a bit delicate for that sort of thing.

 

[perldog007]

Your thread has been interesting to read, and I understand the fun of working with new guns, but what have you broken or had problems with in your Smith 45?

No I haven't. Personal thing, I try to keep it nice. Has some small rust on the backstrap and where the trigger fingers indexes on the frame. Honest damage from the perspiration that such situations will generate. I just liked the idea of a simpler gun ( taking the lockwork all they way down to the frame is something I only did once on a Smith ) and a less valuable one for going afield. I hear horror stories of overzealous confiscations, theft, other damage. I just really love my model 25 and think that for a presentation gun ( 125th anniversary edition) I haz abused it enough...

 

[Malamute]

Sounds reasonable. Thanks for the comment.

Ive used a Smith 29 quite a bit, its held up well, but theres quite a lot of blue gone and theres rust stains in several places.

 

[dickydalton]

No I haven't. Personal thing, I try to keep it nice. Has some small rust on the backstrap and where the trigger fingers indexes on the frame. Honest damage from the perspiration that such situations will generate. I just liked the idea of a simpler gun ( taking the lockwork all they way down to the frame is something I only did once on a Smith ) and a less valuable one for going afield. I hear horror stories of overzealous confiscations, theft, other damage. I just really love my model 25 and think that for a presentation gun ( 125th anniversary edition) I haz abused it enough...

Search Pastorhof on GunBroker. I bought some 240 Kaido bullets for my ROA from him once.

 

[yugorpk]

Ive bought them from pastorhof . Little pricey but I know theres a lot of work that goes into them. Ive talked to Kaido before and tried to order a mould set but he has...issues.

 

[Crawdad1]

Good looking rig Perldog looks like just the ticket for hunting. I agree about the wider belt as they distribute the weight better for me also. I just bought one of these shoulder holsters from Dell's Leather Works for my 1860 Army repro to use in deer season and possibly next summer. Like all their stuff it is a real sweet shoulder rig.

http://dellsleatherworks.com/shoulderholsters.htm