traveling

[freedom arms .45]

saw a thread about traveling to colorado on here, so i guess this is the forum to post this?

situation - my ex lives in colorado, will be traveling to ohio to see my son, and then to new york to see her sister in july.
i told her to leave her gun at my son's when she goes to new york, and what to do if she goes thru illinois, since gun owners are basically criminals in those states. then i got to looking at travel laws per state on the way. what a frigging mess.
even in some relatively gun friendly states.

she does not have a ccl. i'm trying to advise, but i get inconsistent laws for the same state from different sites. she lives in the mountains, doesn't have computer or internet. (i'm not good with them, but i can use one because i've had to for work).

is there a way to find CURRENT, consistent info for this? i'm tempted to tell her to just throw a little camping equipment in the truck and take a hunting knife to stay out of trouble, but that's not really ideal.
she's 4'8", 95 lbs, and looks like an easy target, even though she's really not, but still, there are people out there that we all need to be wary of.

thanks for any advice.

 

[jstert]

https://www.handgunlaw.us/

 

[CapnMac]

is there a way to find CURRENT, consistent info for this?

The handgunlaw link above is a guide, but only a guide.
The law is only absolute unto itself.

But, to be employed requires interaction with law enforcement. Subsequent to that would be involvement by prosecutors. And, only in that last step are laws specifically applied.

It's entirely possible to drive from CO to NY and have zero interactions with LE. Most of this is down, not to police diktat but to our own moral compasses.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...i told her to leave her gun at my son's when she goes to new york, ..

Leaving your gun with someone in another State is highly problematic under federal law.

The federal laws relating to the transfer of a gun from a resident of one State to a resident of another (i. e., the Gun Control Act of 1968 or GCA68) are about physical possession, not ownership. GCA68 was Congress' responding to enormous public pressure after the assassinations by gunfire of three wildly popular public figures -- JFK, RFK and MLK. The law was intended to regulate and control the interstate transfer of firearms. It was structured so that to the extent reasonably possible any transfer of possession of a gun from a resident of one State to a resident of another would have to go through an FFL.

And in the context of the concerns intended to be addressed by Congress through GCA68, it's possession and not ownership that matters. Someone who has a gun in his possession can use it, whether or not he has legal title to it.

Leaving your gun with someone is a transfer. It certainly is under federal law, and would also most likely be also considered a transfer under state laws (and it could also be an illegal transfer under state and/or federal law). That's just what "transfer" means.

1. In general, any transfer of a firearm from a resident of one State to a resident of another must go through an FFL who will follow all usual formalities (e. g., completion of the 4473). There are a few limited, narrow, specific exceptions: if you have an appropriate federal firearms license; inheritance by will or intestate succession; or a loan (subject to a number of limitations which will be discussed in more detail below).
   
   
2. The applicable federal statutes are: 18 USC 922(a)(3); 18 USC 922(a)(5); and 18 USC 922 (b)(3). The full texts of those statutes may be found here.
   
   
3. The federal laws I've cited are about possession, not necessarily ownership.
   
   
   • Possession means:

     1 a : the act of having or taking into control...

     
     
   • Transfer is about possession, not ownership.
     
     Some definitions of "transfer" (emphasis added):
     
     
     • http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/transfer:

       ...Transfer encompasses the sale and every other method, direct or indirect, of (1) disposing of property or an interest therein or possession thereof;...

       
       
     • http://www.thefreedictionary.com/transferred:

       2. Law To make over the possession or legal title of; convey.

     • http://law.yourdictionary.com/transfer:

       Any and every method of removing something from one person or place to another; specifically, the handing over of possession or control of assets or title. ...

     
     
   • Let's look at the statutes:
     
     
     • 18 USC 922(a)(3), which provides in pertinent part (emphasis added) as follows:

       (a) It shall be unlawful—
       ...
       
       (3) for any person, ... to transport into or receive in the State where he resides ...any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State,...

       
       
     • And 18 USC 922(a)(5), which provides in pertinent part (emphasis added) as follows:

       (a) It shall be unlawful—
       ...
       
       (5) for any person ... to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person ...who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in ... the State in which the transferor resides..;

     
     
   • Note carefully the words of those statutes. Words, like "transport", "receive", "obtained", "transfer", "give", "transport", and "deliver" do not necessarily imply ownership and include possession. They will be read and applied by a court according to their ordinary meanings. See Perrin v. United States, 444 U.S. 37 (United States Supreme Court, 1979), at 42:

     ...A fundamental canon of statutory construction is that, unless otherwise defined, words will be interpreted as taking their ordinary, contemporary, common meaning...

   
   
4. With regard to loans under GCA68, let's look at the applicable statutes again:
   
   
   • 18 USC 922(a)(3), which provides in pertinent part (emphasis added) as follows:

     (a) It shall be unlawful—
     ...
     
     (3) for any person, ... to transport into or receive in the State where he resides ...any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State,...

     
     
   • And 18 USC 922(a)(5), which provides in pertinent part (emphasis added) as follows:

     (a) It shall be unlawful—
     ...
     
     (5) for any person ... to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person ...who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in ... the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to
     
     

     (A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest ..., and
     
     (B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;​

     ..

     
     
   • So under federal law a resident of one State may loan a gun to a resident of another State, but only temporarily and only for a lawful sporting purpose.
     
     
     • Temporary means:

       : continuing for a limited amount of time : not permanent
       
       : intended to be used for a limited amount of time

       
       
     • Sporting means (in this context):

       ...of, relating to, used, or suitable for sport...

       
       
     • Purpose means (in this context):

       : the reason why something is done or used : the aim or intention of something

     
     
   • So a court is likely to look at the "temporary loan for a lawful sporting purpose" exception to the prohibition on interstate transfers to apply when a gun is loaned so that the person it's been loaned to can engage in a specific sporting activity (i. e., a hunt, a competition, etc.) of limited duration. "Temporary" would refer to the duration of that activity. Such an interpretation would be consistent with the common meanings of the words used in the statutes and the underlying purpose (controlling interstate transfers of firearms) of GCA68.
     
     
   • So you may go to another State where (under 18 USC 922(a)(5)), a friend may loan you a gun to, for example, go target shooting together, or an outfitter may rent you a gun for a guided hunt. But since there is no applicable "loan" exception in 18 USC 922(a)(3), a loan of a firearm may not cross state lines to the borrower's State of residence.
   
   
5. Is there no way to store your gun in another State?
   
   
   • Leaving a gun with someone in another State clearly raises interstate transfer problems when that person has access to the gun.
     
     
   • One possible way to avoid the problem would be to secure the gun or guns in a locked case or similar container to which only you have the key or combination.
     
     
   • That might avoid the transfer problem inherent in having someone store your guns, ATF has advised here that one may ship a firearm to himself in care of another person in another State.
     
     Specifically ATF has said (emphasis added):

     6. May I lawfully ship a firearm to myself in a different State?
     
     

     Any person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in the care of another person in the State where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to the owner “in the care of” the out-of-State resident. Upon reaching its destination, persons other than the owner must not open the package or take possession of the firearm.​

   
   
6. Note that violations of federal law regarding interstate transfers are punishable by up to five years in federal prison and/or a fine; and since the crime is a felony one will lose his gun rights for the rest of his life.

 

[freedom arms .45]

jstert - thanks for the site. it's one of the ones i visited; just hard to know which is accurate and up to date.
i seriously doubt she will ever get stopped, as she usually doesn't even drive the speed limit. just trying to cover the bases if she does.

legal language can be confusing to me.

this is not an extended trip.
she will be gone for a couple of days from my son's to see her sister in new york, then going back to ohio. she's not transferring it, loaning it, giving it, selling it, gifting it or delivering it to him. he would not be using it, or probably even moving it from where she left it.
i'm not disputing what you're saying, and i appreciate the info and advice, i'm just not sure it applies in this situation?

shipping it there kind of defeats the purpose of having it for self defense purposes while traveling across the country.
as for storing it in another state, that would mean just leaving it at home in colorado. again, defeats the purpose.

she tends to get more attention from people who don't necessarily have her best interests in mind, because she is very small and female.
bad people look for easy victims, not people who can defend themselves. and she looks like an easy victim. when she was younger, i could almost feel sympathy for anyone that messed with her, except they would deserve it
for messing with her. but she is old enough now to not be what she once was.

as for legal title, no such thing. all our guns were bought in texas ( i was born and raised here, and a lifelong resident). her particular gun was bought in 1980. no title, license, registration, or paperwork of any kind etc.... was required or needed.

i do appreciate the info, though. something else to think about, for sure.

 

[Frank Ettin]

... she's not transferring it, loaning it, giving it, selling it, gifting it or delivering it to him. he would not be using it, or probably even moving it from where she left it.
i'm not disputing what you're saying, and i appreciate the info and advice, i'm just not sure it applies in this situation?...

No, I'm afraid that is wrong. Carefully reread my post.

If he can put his hands on the gun, in the view of the law he has possession of the gun.

...shipping it there ...

Please understand that shipping a gun is legally a very big deal, especially if it crosses state lines. There's a bunch of rules under federal law that need to be followed.

...as for legal title, no such thing.,,,

And that's not really true either. "Title" is both a way of saying that you own something and a document that shows that you own it. If you own something you have legal title to it -- whether or not you have a piece of paper that says so. Of course, if you have the piece of paper it's easier to prove ownership, but you have title with or without the paper.

And yes, I am a lawyer.

 

[freedom arms .45]

kinda figured that.
was just trying to go by the definitions i read in your post. and, as i said, legal language is confusing, and not at all clear to the layperson. of which i am one.
i think.

i can promise you it won't be shipped. there would be no point. the only point for the gun is for her to have it with her for travel.

i would almost say she should just take her hunting knife.
but i have no idea on the legalities of that. i figure the modern world has screwed that up, too.

it's not like we're actually free anymore. more free than some, but not as free as we think.

 

[Insignificant bill]

If she wants to take her gun with her she should study the gun laws in every state and see how carry in a vehicle is dealt with. Ohio is permitless and NewYork i would get a lock box and lock the gun in it and put it in the trunk under the spare tire.

 

[Frank Ettin]

… and NewYork i would get a lock box and lock the gun in it and put it in the trunk under the spare tire.

And that would be a serious violation of New York law. Mere possession of a handgun in New York is illegal without a New York permit available only to New York residents

 

[Insignificant bill]

I guess she travels without it. But i didn't see where she was going to NYC

 

[Frank Ettin]

I guess she travels without it. But i didn't see where she was going to NYC

A New York City permit is required in New York City. A state permit is required in the rest of the State.

 

[Insignificant bill]

Guess i had a stupid moment. I guess traveling to NY you risk your life. The fact they can ignore the 2nd amendment is a disgrace.

 

[herrwalther]

If she wants to take her gun with her she should study the gun laws in every state and see how carry in a vehicle is dealt with. Ohio is permitless and NewYork i would get a lock box and lock the gun in it and put it in the trunk under the spare tire.

NY doesn't even let you travel into the state with pepper spray purchased elsewhere. You aren't getting very far with a pistol. Locked or otherwise. Any time I travel to NY, only thing I can bring is a pointy pen that may or may not make it through TSA.