Trick out non-mil spec AR, or trade up for new rifle?

[M&PVolk]

Given the information on mil-spec vs. commercial AR rifles in "the chart" and some of the near-religious devotion to it that I see on this site, it makes me wonder what many of you who like additional features on your AR do to get them?

A good mil spec like a Daniel Defense or Colt seem to come in at around $1,500. A good Bushmaster, M&P, or DPMS runs anywhere from $700 to $1,100. From what I understand, most people are perfectly satisfied with these low end rifles, but are they worth spending additional money to customize?

The price differential between a BM and an LMT leaves an awful lot of money left for adding custom rails, grips, etc. to the BM vs a stock LMT. An LMT provides a more mil-spec and chart respectable weapon from the start, essentially guaranteeing a more robust level of durability in the platform you modify.

So which is it? Go with a lower dollar AR and trick it out, or go more mil-spec at a much higher price point and then custom it out, knowing your AR will probably start to approach close to $2,000?

Pics of your custom work would be nice as well......

 

[sprocket3]

That's a good question. I thought RRA was top shelf AR when I purchased mine a couple years ago. I didn't know about The Chart and all the little details. I got a Varmint Heavy and have put about 500 round through it. Never a single issue or FTF. Shoots 1/2" holes at 100 yards. Trigger is pretty nice as well.

I think you need to ask yourself a few questions:

Will your life depend on it?

How many rounds are you going to shoot through it?

What is the use going to be?

 

[Jackal]

Its a rifle. I think "mil-spec" comes into play more often than it should. Just because the military is using or has used it, doesnt make it better than a civilian version. Anyone remember the Beretta M9's blowing slides back through peoples heads? It was mil spec.

 

[RyanM]

The only "mil-spec" part which really matters is the bolt carrier group (and using an H or H2 buffer if you're using a carbine stock tube). You can get an LMT BCG for the exact same price as any other brand. Everything other than the BCG is pretty much irrelevant on a semi-auto rifle.

What I ended up doing was buying a CMMG lower (only $215, which was actually less than the price of a DPMS lower, parts kit, and stock kit), an H2 buffer (CMT, I believe), an LMT bolt carrier group, and then a complete upper without handguards from CMMG. Sold the original buffer for about $10, and sold the CMMG bolt carrier group for about $30 or $40 more than I'd paid for the LMT (bought the LMT right before the Obama panic, sold the CMMG during it). And I bought a Colt takeoff carry handle for $80. With the sale price of the parts added back in, I ended up spending about... let's see. $215 lower + $15 S&H + $25 transfer + $590 upper + $12 S&H + $90 CH + $130 BCG + $25 buffer - $10 buffer - $160 BCG = $932 + handguards

I ended up getting a "SHOT Show special" KAC RAS for around $200 or so. Add on $30 if you want BCM double heat shield handguards.

And according to "the chart," with updates because I think Rob has some personal vendetta against CMMG (they use 5-coil springs and black inserts, the gas key staking was just as solid as on the LMT, and the barrel steel actually is mil-spec, for instance), I've got a 100% mil-spec carbine, after staking the castle nut myself, for less than the price of a DPMS. Well, except the barrel hasn't been individually high pressure tested, but I really doubt that it's going to blow up on me.

You can also do the same thing these days still. This one place has assembled CMMG lowers for $230 + S&H and transfer, and CMMG's price on uppers with welded flash hiders has only gone up to $626 + $24 S&H (with handguards). Even if you only break even "trading" the CMMG BCG for an LMT, you should come out under $1200. $230 + $20 + $25 + $626 + $24 + $90 + $25 = $1040.

You can have your cake and eat it too. Just eat half the cake and keep the rest!

 

[Coronach]

Basically, what he said.

The Chart just details what is out there and compares it to what is milspec. That's it. It is up to you to decide if it matters (no parkerizing under the FSB, oh noes!) or not. Everyone gets all bent out of shape about The Chart (on both sides), when all The Chart does is give information. Period.

The crucial parts, the parts where failures WILL EVENTUALLY OCCUR, in all guns, milspec or not, are in the BCG. If you are going to run the gun hard (think multiple carbine courses) or the gun must have the lowest probability of failure possible (think defensive use), you should probably get a milspec BCG. This is not to say that a DPMS will fail when you need it, or that a Colt (the One True Sword ) will not, but merely that the properly made and properly tested parts are the most likely to last the longest.

There are other parts that you should check (proper staking of the castle nut?), or other parts you way wish to change (trigger group?), but the big one is the BCG. You can take a standard production model from most major makers and get most of the way to upper tier status, for durability at least, just by swapping the BCG.

Mike

 

[Carter]

I say skip the AR and go with a sig, m1a, or if you really want an AR get one with a gas piston (it'll be worth the extra money)

 

[steven58]

Every time I look the price on a top tier AR is lower!

Currently you can get a "MILSPEC" M4 style AR for about $ 750.00 + shipping and transfer fees on the lower.

There is no longer any excuse to buy a second rate AR

This was posted by Jeep297 over at ar15.com. This is great info and pricing on a top tier AR.

"*Update** Great review on the upper in the following links thanks to 87GN and Stickman:

http://vuurwapenblog.com/2010/03/13/spikes-tactical-m4-le-upper/ (87GN)

http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?p=18827#post18827 (Stickman)

Since so many people around here are fairly new and keep asking what the best/cheapest deal out there is, I thought I would post this to help them out. For a little more than $700, you can buy an extremely high quality rifle, including BUIS, that easily outclasses anything near it's price range. Look at the specs below and you will see this is definitely the best deal out there right now by a wide margin. Specs include:

M4 feed ramps
Chrome lined barrel
Magnetic particle testing on every barrel
F marked front site (Phosphate finished under)
1/7 twist
4150 barrel
5.56 chamber
Auto BCG properly staked w/ MP tested bolt
ST-T2 buffer
Milspec tube for more stock options

Here are the links:

Complete Spikes Upper $475

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=124&t=483834

Complete Lower $180 (now $200)

http://www.dsarms.com/Model-ZM4-Com...Stock-Assembly––-DSZM4R2/productinfo/DSZM4R2/

Rear BUIS $55 (I personally like Troy or KAC sights more but these work well and are cheaper)

http://www.aimsurplus.com/catalog.aspx?groupid=48

** You can also keep the entire rifle Spikes for only $759 (type arfcom at checkout for 5% discount)

http://www.spikestactical.com/z/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=113&products_id=387 "

You can make this even cheaper(although I think the Spikes lower with the proprietary buffer is well worth it) by getting the upper and lower from
DSA arms http://www.dsarms.com/Lowers--Uppers/products/59/ and put in a BCM bolt carrier group for 140 for a total of $615.00 + ship and transfer fees.

 

[cbrgator]

You can get a Colt 6920 for like $1200. It's pretty much as mil-spec as it gets.

 

[C-grunt]

M&P... Where are you getting these price quotes?

Around here the standard LMT and Daniel Defense runs run about 1200 bucks. If you want the free float rails and other goodies, they can start getting really expensive.


I recently sold my Colt 6250 to buy a flat top rifle. I decided I was gonna buy a top of the line gun since I had some extra money to go along with my sale. I looked closely at the LMT and DD line. Both copuld be had in the store for around 1200 bucks. I also could have ordered a BCM rifle for about 1100 bucks.

But my friend from work told me that Noveske gives out military and LEO discounts so I went with them. I spent an extra 350 bucks over what the local shops had the Bushmasters and RRA rifles for and got a rifle that many consider to be one of the best. And after shooting it, I gotta agree with them.

 

[M&PVolk]

Prices just indicate what I have seen in my area.

Let me parse out my argument a bit better. In terms of "quality" and "features" on an AR 15, there really only seems to be a couple of functional/reliability differences between low and high end. The primary ones are staking (which can be done to ANY AR by the end user with just a few minutes of effort), size of the buffer tube, and the quality of the BCG. Am I missing anything of functional importance?

If this is the case, check your gun and stake it as needed. Shoot your stock BCG until it fails, and then throw in a proper mil-spec, or make the change whenever you like. The buffer tube is the same scenario and could easily be changed when you throw on your aftermarket stock (one of the most common customizations). Is there anything preventing someone from doing this?

Is the latest BCM or Daniel Defense (I love the DDM4) really a significant upgrade? Nicely Railed uppers from BCM are running in the $800 to $1,000+ range, with most being out of stock. You still need a good lower and possibly a trigger kit if you want to upgrade there. Again, that's a lot more than a DPMS.

I'm not bashing anyone's rifle choice or anything, but I am genuinely trying to determine which philosophy works the best. As I look at the chart, the list of items is lengthy, but save for a few critical components, the rest of the chart appears to be largely mil-spec for the sake of being mil-spec. Not a bad thing, but is it really a benefit?

If you are going to spend higher end money on an AR, the question still remains as to whether or not building on a lower end foundation is any worse/better than moving to a higher end gun at the onset? No one has really answered that question to my satisfaction yet.

If I buy a $800 DPMS, I can add a high end BCG for around $200 or less. This immediately corrects any problems with the "heart" of the rifle. For $300 or less, I can get any high end trigger I desire. Throw in a quad rail DD Omega 12" for $200, and you have a complete high end rifle for $1,500 with a lot of high quality features.

If I buy a BCM, I get a good flat top upper for between $800 and $1,000+ (depending on features and shipping). I still need a good lower, for around $300 (or more, depending on features). If I swap in a new trigger, I add around another $300. That brings the total to around $1,400 or $1,500 dollars, or about the same as buying that low end rifle and making the same mods.

How have we come out ahead on the high end in terms of practical value? I have a complete solid rifle and a spare trigger group with the BCM. With the custom DPMS, I have a complete solid rifle with an extra BCG, trigger group, and an extra handguard in the event my quad rail fails.

I don't think the issue is as cut and dry as many of you seem to think.......

 

[cbrgator]

One main factor you have overlooked is M4 feed ramps. In terms of functional/reliability differences, that has to be included in the conversation.

 

[Coronach]

As I said before, the chart merely provides information. It is up to the end user to decide whether or not any given item listed on it matters to them.

The only problem with the shoot it 'til it breaks logic is if you use the rifle in a way that it will be costly (in terms of money or blood) if it fails on you. Rifle breaks in the middle of a carbine course? Could sit you down for the day. Rifle fails in a competition? Could keep you off of the podium. Rifle fails in a gunfight? Could keep you off of the green side of the grass. OTOH, if it fails while plinking...big deal. Order a new bolt, press on. It all depends on your intended use.

I went both ways with my ARs. My "serious" ARs have upgraded parts. My trainer AR runs a commercial BCG that I pulled out of one of my others when I upgraded. If it breaks, big deal.

Mike

 

[M&PVolk]

Good points Coronach. It seems that most AR owners that plan on doing serious work upgrade their rifles regardless who the manufacturer is, just to be certain. In which case, perhaps one should consider any AR purchase regardless the quality to be a minimum for their needs.

cbrgator...as to the M4 feed ramps, my philosophy is that a gun either feeds or doesn't feed. If rifle ramps feed 100% of the ammo I use 100% of the time, the fact that they aren't "M4" mil-spec is irrelevant. If any profile feed ramp does not feed correctly, it doesn't matter what spec it meets, it doesn't work and is a bad ramp. In this case, reliability matters more than a set specification.

 

[benEzra]

If you already own a second-tier AR, no worries; you don't have to ditch the rifle and start over to get something you can rely on.

The number #1 priority is IMO to make sure the gas key screws are properly torqued and staked. This is probably the single biggest failure point for non-milspec AR's. Ask around for a qualified AR armorer/builder in your area (or find one you can mail your bolt carrier to) and have them stake the screws properly with a fixture. Don't mess around with hammers and chisels; get it done right.

After that, if your rifle is a carbine using a carbine-length gas system, make sure you are running the proper extractor spring and inserts for that system; not all carbines do. Even better, you can get a Tier 1, shot-peened, magnetic particle inspected milspec bolt from Bravo Company for less than $70, and keep your current bolt as a spare. Just be sure you get the correct extractor setup.

Get some decent magazines. From what I've read, Magpul PMAGs can improve reliability, particularly in a carbine without M4 feed ramps.

Finally, if your lower parts kit is crap, get a new lower parts kit from a quality manufacturer and replace the parts with good ones. The receiver forging is almost certainly fine.

 

[Coronach]

Another point to consider, the "standard" triggers on ARs have a lot of variance. The trend is probably towards the more expensive parts kits having better triggers, but that's speculation.

Finally, have you considered what barrel is being used? I don't know if any of the rifles you've beem looking at have match barrels or anything significantly better than a standard M4 barrel, but the standard "burner" M4 barrel is not known for match-grade accuracy. You can upgrade barrels and have nothing that looks special on a spec sheet, but can be the difference between good groups and great groups.

Mike

 

[Quentin]

Interesting topic and more fuel for those who build their ARs. You can come in well under $1000 if you're careful, get the right parts the first time and build something that rivals a Tier 1 rifle.

As far as add-on rails, $500+ optics and $300 triggers, I just don't get it for the average joe. You can mount a light on a standard handguard and everyone should know how to use iron sights and the milspec fcg. Sure, for someone (M&P) who's life depends on the best equipment it's different. But for most of us here, well I'd rather put that money toward ammo and magazines.

 

[mljdeckard]

Right now Noveske sells their basic M-4 upper for $800 and some change. If you can assemble a basic lower for in the neighborhood of $230, it becomes a question of exactly what you feel needs to be upgraded? From nothing to......everything on Magpul's website, it's a question of how silly you want to get.

 

[Gary G23]

As others have said, it all depends on what you are using it for. If all you do is shoot 30 rounds into a dirt pile once a month any will do.

If you are going to bet your life on it, you might want to go to these websites and do further research:

http://www.ar15.com/

http://www.m4carbine.net/forum.php

I don't like the term "mil-spec" but it is good to know the difference between:
4140 vs 4150CMV 11595E barrel steel
8620 vs 158 Carpenter bolt steel
6061 vs 7075T6 receiver extensions
223 vs 5.56 chamber
chrome lined vs non-chrome lined chamber and barrel
M4 feed ramps vs no ramps
etc