TV program on the Hiroshima last night

[critter]

LATE last night, I saw a TV program on "The Discovery Channel" on the bombing of Hiroshima.

Included was a very thorough presentation of the possibility of a Japanese surrender before us using the bomb. CLEARLY it was NOT going to happen. This show was not a revisionist rewrite of history, thankfully. Quickly, the points made (from my sleepy memory):

1. The Japanese had already discussed surrender and the military leaders had convinced the council that they could hold out till the US got tired of casualties.
2. The US called for total surrender. It was again rejected with the military leaders of Japan depending on a large number of troups defending the homeland to the death.
3. The US 'changed' the terms of surrender to 'the military' (a face saving move to leave out the emperor). The leaders of Japan took this to be a weakness on our part and our willingness to give in and end the war anyway.
4. Estimates of our losses in invading the mainland were from one half to a full million men and untold number of Japanese.
5. Estimates of six months to a year of additional war was going to be needed to defeat Japan with an invasion.
6. Using the two bombs were for the purposes of ending the war immediately and thus saving many lives on both sides.

I found it to be a very good, well thought out and clearly presented program.

 

[TimH]

My brother and me had a short discussion about this at dinner last night. We are both on the same page so there wasn't any disagreement. We were mainly talking about the idiots that are always protesting and mouthing off about dropping the bombs

 

[Ric]

I've seen a few people say that we didn't need to drop the bomb,

The Japanese didn't "need" the Bataan death march
or the things done on Wake Island
or the rape of Nanking
or the destruction of the nation of Korea
come to think of it, they didn't "need" Pearl Harbor

If they hadn't done those things, then we wouldn't have "needed" to drop the bomb.
Hindsight is always 20/20 (especially for the people who want to disagree)

 

[rick_reno]

I visited Hiroshima once. It's a thriving, modern city with the exception of one building down by the river they let get really run down.

 

[mete]

While there is always a big deal at the shrine in Hiroshima the Japanese are still in denial.I was reading an article in the Chinese paper ,Xinhua,and the gave specific examples of very recent things the Japs did to continue the denial.A few years ago a japanese author wrote a factual history book about the war but had to go to court to get it published and into the schools !!

 

[XLMiguel]

Excellent synopsis, Critter. I don't have a problem with the bombing, it had the desired outcome, and probably saved some Japanese lives (i.e. fewer died than if the war had continued) while undoubtably saved thoushands of Allied lives.

The shame of it all, though, is that it was primarily the civilians who paid for the arrogance and stupidity of the military and politicians (like, what else is new?). The Japanese gene pool would have been much better off if those who made the decisions paid the price for same. JMO

 

[GunGoBoom]

The Japanese didn't "need" the Bataan death march
or the things done on Wake Island
or the rape of Nanking
or the destruction of the nation of Korea
come to think of it, they didn't "need" Pearl Harbor

Amen.

 

[Harry Paget Flashman]

detail. Actually, we stole the Philippines from the Filipinos, who had fought a successful revolution against Spain and were on the verge of independence. We pretty much didn't need to be in Hawaii either except that it was ripe for the pickin' and Japan, England and Russia were giving it the eye. In light of the times it kind of made sense for us to pluck it.

Any "serious problems with their trading...all over the Pacific" that we caused the Japanese and their Greater East Asia Co-Properity Sphere was probably a good thing. What they were doing in Manchuria and Korea before the war and in Southeast Asia and China during the war wasn't a Methodist picnic .

I like to recommend Paul Fussell's book, Thank God for the Atom Bomb [1988] to anyone contemplating handwringing about how we chose to end World War II.

 

[MaceWindu]

Point#1: THEY started it.
Point#2: Don't mess with the biggest bully in the school yard. Especially if he is not looking for a fight with YOU.
Point#3: Made in the USA, tested in Japan.

MaceWindu

 

[PX15]

Hiroshima

From the actions of the Japanese Army all over the globe before they were "stopped" do you really think the Japanese making the decisions would NOT have used 2 (or 200) Atomic Bombs on allied forces if they had produced them first?

I have talked to several former soldiers who were preparing to invade the mainland of Japan and THEY said the dropping of the Atomic bomb was a WONDERFUL thing..

The American mindset at the time of WW2 was in fact that if every man, woman, and child in Japan were killed by the Atomic bomb, or bombs, it was worth it if it saved ONE AMERICAN SOLDIERS life....

We can revisit this issure until the cows come home, but unless you are a member of that generation you are simply guessing as to what you would or would not have done.

Thankfully during WW2 the phrase "political correctness" had not been invented. Our hearts and minds were of one accord... "Kill the dirty Japs".

Sad that we have lost that intensity in our present war against terrorists. Political correctness is responsible for the insane concern about "profiling".
Hey, if ONE group is doing the bad things, why don't we expend our resources targeting that GROUP?

Seen any 80yr old caucasion lady terrorists lately?

In case you haven't figured it out, I'm a senior citizen, and I think we are trying to fight this war with one hand tied behind our backs, just like the VietNam war...... Don't get me started, I'm all for building an electrified fence all the way along the US/Mexican border too...

Geezze...

JP :banghead:

 

[jefnvk]

Hmmm...

The History channel reached the opposite conclusion.

They concluded, and I kinda agree, that no one was interested in diplomatically surrendering.

Russia wanted a piece of Asia, they didn't want the war to end peacefully before they got into action.

Japan wouldn't surrender unconditionally. Little did they know, surrendering unconditionally a few months ahead of time would have left them in a much better place than drawing out the war. Supposedly, the Japanese Emporer cried when he heard what was going to happen to Japan, he couldn't believe anyone would set such nice terms.

America still needed revenge for Pearl Harbor. You just don't humiliate a country like that and get away with it.

I have no quealms with dropping the bombs. Just saying it probably wasn't necessary. But no problem with it at all.

If nothing else, it prevented nuclear war after only one country was nuke enabled. Imagine if we had not dropped it, and us and Russia got in a fight in the 50's. Neither knowing truly how the bomb acted on a live target, just started throwing them left and right. Probably wouldn't have been good.

 

[MountainPeak]

THEY started it. WE finished it. Nuff said!

 

[4v50 Gary]

I knew a Death March survivor. The word "knew" is used because he passed away this year. He and his buddies were sent to the Japanese mainland as "guests" of the emperor and compelled to work in the mines. Each and every day they were told that they were going to die when the first allied soldier set foot on Japanese soil. Incapable of preventing their massacre, they were jumping with joy when they heard of the bomb being dropped. He said, "Because of the bomb, I came home."

On a personal scale, my Uncle Julius was a radio operator on a B-17. His squadron was suppose to go to Japan and he figured he wasn't coming home. Then the bomb came and my Uncle Julius came home.

The whiners can whine, but the bomb saved many lives, both American & Japanese. Dropping it was our single greatest act of human decency and compassion during the war. That's my bit of revisionist history.

 

[longhorngunman]

Thank God the bomb got dropped. Also provided mental enforcement to the Soviets what the nuke could do and that we would use it if we had to. On the news last night here in the People's Republic of Austin, they were showing live footage of a Hiroshima vigil in one of the City parks. In memory of those who died needlessly Had some Japanese peacenik who survived the bombing talking about how "humanity" must get together and rid the world of all these weapons. Gee isn't that great, If he'll get North Korea, Iran and all the jihadists into agreement to disarm then mayble we'll talk It's always funny to watch what the silly liberals in Austin are whining about.

 

[Husker1911]

The shop I manage is just down the road from Offutt AFB, home of SAC and now StratCom. Yesterday there were protesters outside the gates. While I respect the demonstrator's 1st Amendment rights, I believe they are naive idiots.

Don't forget the Soviet Union had JUST declared war upon Japan and were threatening their own invasion. For obvious reasons the US sought to end the war ASAP. It saved lives on both sides, and prevented Soviet intervention in post-war Japan. Otherwise we could have had a situation in Japan similar to Germany during the cold war. Cold, hard facts.

 

[Byron Quick]

The American mindset at the time of WW2 was in fact that if every man, woman, and child in Japan were killed by the Atomic bomb, or bombs, it was worth it if it saved ONE AMERICAN SOLDIERS life....

That's my mindset today. In fact, I believe that if that had, in fact, been the case that it would have been the constitutional duty of the commander in chief to use the bomb.

I've several Japanese friends. They most likely would be either dead or never have been born if I had control of American military forces.

8/9/45...Japan...We surrender.

US..Sorry, offer expired this morning. We've declared the Empire of Japan to be a nuclear testing area, sayonara.

 

[Tory]

Shallow, revisionist drivel

"We were causing the Japs to have serious problems with their trading, etc, all over the Pacific."

Reality check:

The "problems" were our terminating oil shipments AFTER the Japanese:

1. Invaded China, perpetrating the "Rape of Nanking" (and Shanghai and every other place they set foot);"

2. Set up a puppet state in Manchuria to help perpetrate their programs (like Special Unit 713);

3. Planned invasions of Korea and the entire Pacific Rim.

How about the "serious problems" the Japanese caused their neighbors with invasion, bombing open cities, slaughtering and raping civilians, kidnapping girls to be sex slaves for the IJA, setting up death camps and imposing martial law and penal servitude on the surviving citizens of every country the IJA attacked and occupied?

Note that Japan has failed to fully acknowledge its actions; school books still gloss over the war in general and ignore the war crimes altogether.

"Problems" indeed.....

 

[Husker1911]

All very true, Tory. In retrospect, it seems foolhardy that Pearl Harbor slept. The fuel embargo was the final straw to the Imperialist Japanese. It seems incredible now that the powers that were within the US government, executive and military, didn't take precautions against the attack.

I don't wish to start a whole new tack in this thread, that FDR "knew" of the impending attack. Afterall, there were no "black helicopters" back then.

 

[Candiru]

I'm a young guy, but I agree with those who say dropping the atomic bombs saved both Japanese and American lives.

A reactionary is someone who doesn't read the second line; similarly, today's reactionaries encounter the concept of dropping a nuclear weapon on a civilian city and stop, blinded by horror and outrage. They never look beyond the pain, suffering, and destruction--they're too squeamish to see the big picture. Dropping the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was cruel, cruel like shooting the family dog in front of your children; cruel like shooting the family dog because it's rabid and has your kids backed into the corner.

Many of the very people in Japan protesting today are alive because their grandmothers and parents were not on the beaches of Japan, armed with bamboo spears and ordered to repel the Marines and Army troops swarming out of the landing craft. Many of those protesting in the US are alive because their grandfathers weren't thrown into a meatgrinder that would have made Iwo Jima look like a Sunday picnic. My own grandfather was an Army medic, a favorite target of Japanese soldiers, so I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be here today if those bombs had not been dropped.

The definition of a man is one who does not shy away from the unpleasant when pursuing the optimal. While I can't celebrate the deaths of so many people in such a horrible fashion, I can take this weekend to be grateful that the leaders at the time were men enough to drop the bombs.

 

[Husker1911]

Candiru, the fact you're young gives me great hope in today's young people. Your insightful perspective has added greatly to this thread.

 

[Chawbaccer]

All I can add is thats its too darned bad we didn't have enough bombs to give them a nuke carpet bombing from shore to shore. If they were planning on surrendering before we nuked their butts they should of just done it sooner.

 

[dfariswheel]

Here's something I posted on another forum:

I always told the "we shouldn't have dropped it" people to look at it like this:

You're Harry Truman, it's 1947 and you're at your Senate impeachment trial.

"My fellow Americans, in 1945 the USA had a weapon of such power that one or two could have ended the war in weeks with no further American casualties."

"There would have been one, possible two hundred thousand Japanese causalities".

"Instead of using this weapon, on which we spent several billion dollars, I decided to take the advice of a handful of left-wing foreign-born scientist, and not use it."

"Instead, I decided we would invade the heavily defended shores of Japan".

"Our American Generals and Admirals advised me that invading Japan would be a horrible blood-bath for both sides".

"Despite the fact that we did not start this long, awful war, a war the Japanese did start with treachery, and which they in general behaved like savages; murdering, raping, pillaging, and looting across half the world, and causing millions of causalities, I decided it would be inhumane to use this wonder-weapon to end the war with no further American deaths".

"During this invasion of Japan, tens of thousands more of your sons, husbands, and fathers were killed, maimed, and horribly wounded".

"In addition anywhere from 500,000 to one million Japanese men, women, and children were killed, maimed, and wounded, many in suicide attacks on Americans".

"Much of the American fleet lays sunk in Japanese waters from suicide attacks".

"The Northern reaches of the Japanese home islands are occupied by Russian forces, who now refuse to leave."
These Soviet forces are even now setting up another Communist "People's Republic" in the North of Japan, just as they have done in North Korea.

"Even thought the battle for Japan is over, a bloody guerrilla war is still raging in the cities and hills of Japan, and this war is expected to last until sometime into the late 1950's or early 1960's".

"In conclusion, I was concerned that in the future, people would condemn me for using this weapon, and I thought it was the lesser of two evils to spend an entire generation of young Americans than to be accused of possible racist motives".

"So, although a great many of your men will not be coming home, many, many more will be completely shattered by horrible wounds, and Americans will be dying in Japan for years to come, you have the comfort of knowing that future College professors, Hollywood stars, and foreign elites will be happy we didn't act like cowboys".

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Or, "Okay. I decided to invade Japan. Half a million Americans died. Several million Japanese were killed in the fighting. That's AFTER nearly half the population of Japan died of cold and starvation in the winter of '45-'46. But I didn't use that nasty ol' bomb that might have killed as many as two hundred thousand people, so I feel reeeeeely good about it."

 

[longhorngunman]

Most of these anti-nuke types are nothing more than Communist sympathizers, that's why their still mad at Reagan . I've been reading a book about the war in the Pacific. During the "Rape of Nanking" the Japs killed over 300,000 Chinese in a MONTH! The Japs would take pregnant Chinese women and make a bet about the sex of the baby, then they would take their swords and slice open the girl's belly and "see who won the bet".

 

[Marnoot]

In retrospect, it seems foolhardy that Pearl Harbor slept. The fuel embargo was the final straw to the Imperialist Japanese. It seems incredible now that the powers that were within the US government, executive and military, didn't take precautions against the attack.

As I was converting a typewritten manuscript to electronic format, of the experiences of my father's uncle in WWII and as a POW in Japan, I read his theory on Pearl Harbor, which I had never thought of before; interested in your opinions:

"It was and still is a mystery to me why so large a contingent of our Pacific Fleet would have been bottled up in the harbor at Honolulu, with steam down, even at any time in peace time, let alone in this period of unlimited emergency, and during the period when political relations were so strained in the Pacific Area.

"I did then, and have since entertained the idea that possibly the bait may have been laid at Pearl Harbor to draw the Japanese out and create an 'incident' by drawing the Japanese to attack Pearl Harbor when they considered it weak and vulnerable to cause an immediate declaration of war by reason of aggression, when, otherwise, by congressional action and popular opinion in the in the United States would have taken months, and we would then have been no further along in the preparedness. Alternately, our Navy must have had such contempt for the Japanese that they felt secure in Honolulu. There is one reaction to such an attack.

"It has the result of immediately making all Americans fighting mad and ready for war, when for months before, when it looked like we would or ought to get into the war, people were reluctant to have sons go across and straighten out the world mess. The common cry was that someone else ought to stop those people, but not me or mine."