Two slightly different scenarios for stopping a threat

[.308 Norma]

We are talking about an extra 1/8th of an inch of difference in penetration. Its nothing. Blood vessels, veins, arteries, smashed bones, perforated organs are all the same.

Agreed. And all that "extra 1/8th of an inch" is, is stretchy, human skin.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

So....no chance that lodged bullets is in or very near something vital?

You just said the magic word, "chance." We're talking about chance, and the chances (or odds) are that through and through wounds are more likely to kill.

 

[JohnBiltz]

You just said the magic word, "chance." We're talking about chance, and the chances (or odds) are that through and through wounds are more likely to kill.

Except in this theoretical case, reread the OP, there is no chance. Identical wound tracks.

 

[Madcap_Magician]

I would prefer the case where the bullet stops just shy of exiting the person I shot. I don't see how the additional hole would actually add anything to the discussion, and if the bullet stops just shy of exit, I can be sure it didn't take the next available on ramp, as it were...

But I think it's kind of a moot point.

 

[mbok1947]

It's what gets hit between the entry and the exit wound that matters.

 

[RPZ]

So....no chance that lodged bullets is in or very near something vital?

OP "Two slightly different scenarios. In the first one, the armed defender hits bad guy with bullet that penetrates far enough so that the bullet is up against the skin at the end of travel".

Yes, what you say can be an issue however if it is inside something vital death might be a likely result anyway, just a matter of when.

 

[RPZ]

I would prefer the case where the bullet stops just shy of exiting the person I shot. I don't see how the additional hole would actually add anything to the discussion, and if the bullet stops just shy of exit, I can be sure it didn't take the next available on ramp, as it were...

But I think it's kind of a moot point.

Yes it might, sudden (or faster) blood pressure loss is one form of quick, or potentially quick incapacition. See my post #20

 

[Hanzo581]

I am not sure if you guys watch or not, but check out the channel Active Self Protection on youtube. You'll see plenty of real life videos of just how long someone shot or stabbed can keep fighting even with mortal wounds.

 

[Ruezim]

0.000056237% more effective.

Do I get a prize for being correct?

Sorry man you are off by 0.0000002 you forgot to carry the 3 two steps before. Do not worry about it was an easy mistake.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Except in this theoretical case, reread the OP, there is no chance. Identical wound tracks.

Except that since he didn't tell us WHERE the wounds were, there is.

 

[Danoobie]

I am not sure if you guys watch or not, but check out the channel Active Self Protection on youtube. You'll see plenty of real life videos of just how long someone shot or stabbed can keep fighting even with mortal wounds.

This is, assuming the BG in the situation decides he'd rather die, right now, than to try to save himself. IF
you further defy the odds, by running into one of these guys, you're having a very bad day, in anybody's
book. But yes, Hanzo, if somebody is very committed, and they would rather fight than live, they can trade
their future for an epic struggle, to the death.

My point is, if they opt to live, you've stopped the threat.

 

[Hanzo581]

This is, assuming the BG in the situation decides he'd rather die, right now, than to try to save himself. IF
you further defy the odds, by running into one of these guys, you're having a very bad day, in anybody's
book. But yes, Hanzo, if somebody is very committed, and they would rather fight than live, they can trade
their future for an epic struggle, to the death.

My point is, if they opt to live, you've stopped the threat.

I think one huge factor you overlooked was the person shot or stabbed may not have any idea they just received a fatal wound. Whether it be adrenalin or drugs delaying their reaction. But a normal rational person? Sure they'd stop after being injured. I'd just never assume someone shot or stabbed would automatically retreat.

 

[RPZ]

I think one huge factor you overlooked was the person shot or stabbed may not have any idea they just received a fatal wound. Whether it be adrenalin or drugs delaying their reaction. But a normal rational person? Sure they'd stop after being injured. I'd just never assume someone shot or stabbed would automatically retreat.

True; someone shot or stabbed in self defense may not be in a rational state of mind to begin with. Yes, we could speculate that "most people" would choose to live and flee etc, but people who commit violent assaults are simply not always in a rational state of mind.

 

[Danoobie]

Don't be obtuse, you're right there at the time. There is nothing for you to actively assume, in a
situational sense. They're either going to surrender, and beg for help, or keep fighting.
The person is either a wacko, and wants to die in the commission of a crime, or he wants to live.
But you will be right there to see it, one way or another. Criminals either have a political agenda,
or they want financial gain. Once again, if you defy the odds, twice, by getting a nutter, you're
having a very bad day.

 

[Hanzo581]

Don't be obtuse, you're right there at the time. There is nothing for you to actively assume, in a
situational sense. They're either going to surrender, and beg for help, or keep fighting.
The person is either a wacko, and wants to die in the commission of a crime, or he wants to live.
But you will be right there to see it, one way or another. Criminals either have a political agenda,
or they want financial gain. Once again, if you defy the odds, twice, by getting a nutter, you're
having a very bad day.

I'll be honest, I have no idea what you're even arguing. I said check out the many videos showing people continuing their assault after being shot and you started talking about how that's if they choose to stay and fight......I mean no kidding, if they chose to run away they wouldn't be in the videos I referenced.

 

[Danoobie]

What I'm arguing is the average person has envisioned a life for themselves, before the event gone awry. That after the shooting, and they will, in all likelihood, want to live it.
Granted the exceptions, as you have readily shown, happen, but most folks want to live. How many people actually
get out of bed, have breakfast, look at their watch, and say :

"Oh, CRAP! I've really gotta boogie! I don't want to be late for
being gut-shot, and dying a painful, agonizing death, in a pool of my
own blood and gore! "...

I'm not arguing, it's just an observation that those cases you show, while valid, are exceptions, not the rule.

 

[Hanzo581]

What I'm arguing is the average person has a life after the shooting, and they will, in all likelihood, want to live it.
Granted the exceptions, as you have readily shown, happen, but most folks want to live. How many people actually
get out of bed, have breakfast, look at their watch, and say :

"Oh, CRAP! I've really gotta boogie! I don't want to be late for
being gut-shot, and dying a painful, agonizing death, in a pool of my
own blood and gore! "...

I'm not arguing, it's just an observation that those cases you show, while valid, are exceptions, not the rule.

Sure, heck there are plenty of defense situations solved by the mere presentation of a firearm, of course the majority will retreat when the shooting starts, I was simply saying don't assume shooting someone will stop them. It was more in relation to the blood loss and blood pressure conversation.

 

[herrwalther]

Statistically, you lose more blood out of 2 holes compared to one. But all things being equal, you are stopped either way. A major artery hit is a hit, whether or not the bullet has left the building. Or in this case, body.

 

[the Black Spot]

In scenario #2, what if bullet exits and hits a bystander?

 

[Madcap_Magician]

Yes it might, sudden (or faster) blood pressure loss is one form of quick, or potentially quick incapacition. See my post #20

How are you going to see more sudden blood pressure loss from an extra eighth of an inch of penetration through skin tissue that has no significant blood-bearing vessels?

 

[Kleanbore]

Considering you have multiple shots, my choice would be for the energy dump to be completely inside the attacker.

I wouldn't put any stock at all into the concept of "energy dump" with a handgun round.

There is empirical evidence that when the round over-penetrates, the attacker has the ability to remain a threat.

What?

This is why Browning was commissioned by the US Army to create the 1911, in the first place.

Browning was not "commissioned" by anyone. The Army evaluated different firearms and selected the Colt.

 

[peacebutready]

There is
empirical evidence that when the round over-penetrates, the attacker has the ability
to remain a threat.

That's because the hits weren't good ones.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

That's because the hits weren't good ones.

Actually it's because the one-shot stop is a myth. I have seen men hit multiple times with rifles and continue to fight. In one case, the man in question was visibly hit three or four times and continued to fire and attempted to carry another man into the village, but finally fell and lay between two rows in a garden. I made the mistake of stepping over his body, and he tried to shoot me in the back. One of the men following me finished him.

 

[Jim K]

I never cease to wonder about the silly stuff people worry about. Some of the guys here remind me of the story that medieval monks argued for days about how many angels could dance on the head of a pin, even though none of the holy men had ever seen angels doing any such thing or thought about why they would.

Jim

 

[Varminterror]

Both will go down just as fast, but the bad guy with two holes will be easier to track through dense brush than the bad guy with only one hole...................................