U.S. Army going with SigP220?

[Cousin Mike]

As some of you may know, I'm considering a Sig P220 as a holiday present to myself... Well, I called my local gun shop / firing range today, and inquired about prices on a used Sig P220. They said they've been running dry on Sigs for the last 2 months, and only had the P245... I don't want a compact, so after telling the salesman I really preferred the 220, he told me that they deal with Sig directly. According to this guy, the reason they can't get their hands on the P220 at the moment is because the armed forces recently signed a contract with Sig for 245,000 of them. Normally, I would just ignore it, and consider the source (I'm not the most trusting of gun store employees)... Thing is, I have read articles that suggested that the Army was testing various models in .45, so I figure maybe there's something to what this guy is saying... He says the armed forces and govt. agencies have first pick, so civilians wont be able to get their hands on new ones for a while.. He's calling Sig for me to see if they can get a nice used one in for me, and he should be letting me know by Wednesday.

I certainly hope it's true for the sake of our men and women in uniform - I have my own feelings about the M9 (my brother in the Air Force is also not a big fan of the 9mm in any form) - but I REALLY don't feel like having to delay this purchase for God knows how long. If I can find one this week for a nice price, I'll probably just put it on layaway and pick it up right after Christmas.

My question is:

Is this just some gun store know-it-all selling me wolf tickets, or has anyone else heard that the Army has officially signed the contract with Sig?

 

[waterhouse]

Do a google search for "joint combat pistol" for the specs.

In August the military began looking into a .45. I am fairly certain that at the rate the gov't moves they probably haven't even started the testing yet, so I'd say it is unlikely that SIG was already awarded the contract.


Interestingly, the number of pistols called for is in the 200,000 range according to the specs, which is close to what your dealer friend said.

When SIG and HK split the DHS pistol contract, the news was on their websites pretty much immediately. Since SIG hasn't bragged about it yet, I'd say it hasn't happened.

 

[Sox]

I would consider the source, and do yourself a favor. Order one from CDNN for 479.00 and use him as your FFL to accept it, tell him you were able to get a super secret surplus special from the special operations command.

 

[fastbolt]

If I have to go into a 'gunstore' I expect to hear misinformation. I try not to visit them if at all possible.

Well, okay, sometimes I want to browse among some SA revolvers.

I wouldn't trust the folks in some of the stores I've visited over the years to tell me the time of day ... and I wouldn't bother asking.

A friend convinced me to visit a new gunstore in another area in recent weeks. I could only politely put him off a few times. he was so excited about it ...

When I entered I noticed the place was small, but very brightly lit, and well-stocked with everything you could reasonably expect if you read the advertising in gun magazines. The large selection of handguns had something from everyone that sold handguns in CA, and the prices ran from lower than expected, to higher than expected. Not too bad in that respect. The ammunition selection was decent for a public store, but costly. The folks were attentive, friendly and anxious to please.

I wasn't in the store 5 minutes before the whoppers started, either ...

This (plastic) holster is the best of its kind made, and it's used by a good friend who's on a special unit at such & such major PD ... This special limited production foreign rifle is used by snipers for a special unit ... This (cleaning product) is the best of its kind made ... and so on. It was dizzying.

I don't know how they kept up the pace without cue cards, either. It was impressive.

In answer to your question, I haven't heard of anything about SIGARMS having been awarded a military contract arising from the JCP evaluation for the anticipated 645K pistols, and related holsters, magazines, etc.. ... and I've been speaking to a SIGARMS L/E dealer fairly frequently in recent weeks, too. They gave me a heads up and filled me in on some background info on the SFPD switch from Beretta to SIGARMS before it happened, too.

Time will tell, of course. Could be some local procurement funds activity going on in smaller quantities somewhere lending rise to rumors. Who knows?

I could see production priorities and availability for some non-L/E sales and inventory being affected by SIGARMS' activity regarding its portion of the DHS contract, though.

 

[Ala Dan]

Bash-Bash-Bash Gun Dealers (and Employees) ~!

Its not uncommon in this (THR) and every other community, for gun
dealers (and employees) to get bashed~! But, OTOH its the know-
it-all firearms guru who thinks he knows everything that there is to
know about firearms. Well my friends I'm here to tell you that not
everyone (dealers or customers) know everything there is too know
about firearms. I certainly don't, and have NEVER professed to. You
could probably fill volumes with what I don't know 'bout firearms.

But, I'm here to say that the SIG Classic P-series .45 caliber P220A
is one sweet weapon; and IMHO the military would behove their-
selves by choosing this world class firearm~! Therefore, I think
waiting for a .45 caliber P220A is worth the time it takes to find
one.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Try a different dealer. There should be enough P-220s in the pipeline that you can get a new or used one pretty easily, regardless of what the government or SIG is doing...

A number of dealers are very ethical and honest. Others aren't. Sometimes the story you hear is the straight poop, and sometimes the story you hear is what's needed to help make the rent payment or payroll.

 

[cslinger]

AFAIK the P220 doesn't even meet the specifications required, not that I do not love the pistol but I doubt very much the military has picked them up.

Smart money is on that new HK USP Compact Tactical or whatever it is me thinks.

 

[jc2]

Hope not! Here are some comments by LE armorer (shamelessly copied from TF):

My PD issues SIG pistols; P-220s in .45, the 226, 228,and 239 in 9MM. The dept split is about 35% .45ACP and 65% 9MM. I have been the lead full-time firearms instructor/armorer for the past 12 years. As a LEO,I carried my Colt Govt or Commander from 78-90, switched to P-220 from 90-93, and carried a P-228 from then to present. With all that in mind, here are a few of my observations:

1. The P-220 is probably the most accurate service pistol right out of the box.

2. The P-220 is much more finicky about duty ammo than any of the SIG 9MMs. Winchester RA45T work just fine.

3. I see 10 times more parts break in P-220s than any of the SIG 9MMs. The 9MMs are just much more reliable. That's the reason I have carried one as a trainer and as a SWAT officer.

4. P-220 magazines have experienced several changes. The early "small zipper seam" mags had poor top welds and were prone to splitting. We replaced all of those with the later "trapezoidal seam" mags and have not split and of those. Heavily used mags may develope small cracks from the rear feed rail cut, causing the mag lips to lose a certain amount of tension. We have not seen very many of these but they do occur and the mag should be replaced. (the SIG 8 rounders are trash, stay away) The newest stainless, made by Mec-Gar for SIG, seem to work alright but we have only been using them for about 3 years.

5. Early P-220s, without the hammer reset spring, were surplused out as a safety hazard, relating to the decocking lever vs thumb relax issue.

6. All of our SIG are surplused out after 10 years of in inventory. This is done primarily due to the constant changes made to SIG pistols by SIG and the failure of SIG to communicate these changes to their SIG certified armorers.

Overall, SIGs are pretty darn good service pistols for LE use, but the 9MMs will prove to be much more reliable and durable than the P-220 .45. I would not use a P-220 .45 in any demanding military role which required the pistol to be fired ALOT. If you are going to fire this P-220 pistol ALOT then you'll need spare roll pins, trigger bar springs, trigger bars, slide catch springs, locking pieces, trigger pivot pins, and hammer reset springs. Or, you could just carry a P-226 or P-228 in 9MM, know that your pistol will work,pay attention to shot placement, and have a wonderful life.

 

[1911JMB]

Damn that would be awesome.

I own a p220 which cost me 400 bucks used. I would especially like it if this is true because factory new p220 mags cost $60, and military p220 use would have to drive the price down. And as mentioned, the old mags (of which I own several) are prone to splitting.

 

[Cousin Mike]

Damn... thanks guys

jc2, thanks for the info as well.. although I still think I might go with a P220.. I was offered a P245 with an extended 10 rd. mag that makes the grip as long as the P220 - I might also go with that IF it feels good in my hands, and it proves incredibly difficult to procure a P220.

I've looked at a lot of websites, and talked to some local dealers, and I'm going to make my first payment this Friday if I can find one locally. If not, I'll be ordering online.

Thanks again to everyone who posted in response for your insight I'll be posting one of those "Soon to be owner of..." or "Recently purchased a..." threads whenever I drop a little cash on something... If anyone does find out that a contract WAS in fact signed with Sig, let me know. I think my little brother might like to hear about that.

 

[Boiler_G]

Acquisitions

+1 on waterhouse gov't acquistion process ---- slow!!!! I should know as an AD USAF officer workin acquisitions! Also, don't care for the M9. 9mm is ok, but the M9s we qual with are old. Buddy of mine found crack on his barrel durring pre-qual inspec ... good thing he didn't lose a eye, hand, arm or head! Also, I had the slide lock back about every 5th shot, the RO just told me to slam the slide forward w/ the palm of my hand. I didn't like that. I never had that happen w/ my Colt Govt, so I know it wasn't limp wristing. Also the M9 fealt bulky in my hand. Now, these qual guns may have been old and had hundreds of thousands of rounds through them, but I didn't care for the Beretta in general. Decocker on the slide isn't my style either. This Sig in .45ACP would be an interesting change. Despite my dislikes for the Beretta, I was planning on getting one so I could train w/ what I would deploy with (maybe a Compact Type M), but I may reconsider and see what pans out the next couple of years with the Sig.

 

[fastbolt]

Okay, obviously not EVERY gunstore & employee are unworthy and unreliable. I've just never had the pleasure to meet Ala Dan, it seems ... or the gentleman in Alaska, come to that ...

Since I spent several years in the car business as a young man, I can say that based upon my personal experiences in both car dealerships and gunstores, I sort of look at them both, and the sales people in both, the same.

They've all gotta make a living, too ...

And when you find a good one, stay loyal ...

 

[albanian]

"Its not uncommon in this (THR) and every other community, for gun
dealers (and employees) to get bashed~! But, OTOH its the know-
it-all firearms guru who thinks he knows everything that there is to
know about firearms. Well my friends I'm here to tell you that not
everyone (dealers or customers) know everything there is too know
about firearms."

Gunstore owners and employees do get bashed quite a bit but most of the time it is with just cause. I have read and contributed to some of the "bashing". I would guess that about 90% of the bashing is just and the gunstore people were the idiots in the story. Sometimes a newbie decides to bash a dealer because he doesn't know what he is talking about but that is not often the case. Most of the time, the gunstore people know very little about guns yet give out advide like they were experts. Ala Dan and other forum members that work in gunstores are excepted in this stereotype of course.

I am not an expert but I know without a doubt that I know more about guns than most gunstore owners and employees. It doesn't take much to know more than your average gun store worker. Either they are telling flat out lies or they just don't know they are talking about most of the time. it is really hard to defend them as a group. I know a few good dealers that are smart guys and honest and I do all of my business with them. Before I found the good ones, I had a really poor opinion of dealers because of some of the things I heard or some of the things they did. Some are nothing more than crooks and liers and they gave the rest of them a bad name. I would like to think that a few bad apples spoil the barrel but from my experience, the majority of dealers are bad apple and it the few good ones that keep me sane.

Take anything a gun dealer says with a very small grain of salt and you should be okay. If you believe everything a dealer tells you, you will be very confused indeed.

 

[Cousin Mike]

I apologize for the blanket statement about "gun store employees". I should have worded that a little more specifically. I know a couple of guys locally that I would ask almost anything and trust their answers, but they're usually middle aged or older guys who have been working with firearms longer than I've even been around. This guy was young. He works at the firing range I visit sometimes. He's a nice kid, pleasant to deal with in person, but he's a kid all the same. I'm only 25 years old, and I'm definitely not a firearms expert, but I read as much as I can, and I shoot as much as I can afford to. I have to admit though, I have some reservations about the kid in the gun store knowing intimate secret details about Sigarms and their new government contract. Once again, my apologies to Ala Dan, and anyone else who might've seen that as an unfair statement.

 

[cslinger]

m definitely not a firearms expert,

I am generally an idiot. I know a tiny bit about many things but almost without fail I have found that those who claim to be experts on anything are most surely not. It is the humble folks who teach a little and tell you where to learn more are the most expert in many things. Pay attention to those who will teach you where to find the knowledge yourself.

That is my confucious moment of the evening.

 

[albanian]

"It is the humble folks who teach a little and tell you where to learn more are the most expert in many things. Pay attention to those who will teach you where to find the knowledge yourself."

I like that, it rings true.

OTOH, when I am sure I know what I am talking about and I am sure the other guy doesn't, I don't bother listening. Not everyone's opinion is equal. I value certain people's opinions more than others.

 

[Ala Dan]

Hey Guy's-

No Harm, No Foul~! Everybody is entitled to their opinion.

We all make mistakes, thats natural. Some are unintentional, while others
are meant to be deceptive or misleading. I've found a good rule of thumb
is that when a potential customer ask a question that I do not have an
answer for; the best method is to tell the customer I don't really know,
but I will certainly find out. Then, seek sound advice from someone that
does know the correct answer~! Our sporting goods store is family
owned, and has been in business since 1945 as a sporting goods store.
Our three co-owner's (all Simmons brothers) would not put up with any
staff member intentionally lying to a customer five minutes~!

BTW, have a wonderful evening and a better day tomorrow.

 

[mbt2001]

I know that the government is looking for one, however I thought that they were looking for something along the 1911 lines. I read an article (I can find it again if I must) talking about how Springfield sold 5,000 or 15,000 of the new Operators to the Marines. Then I consider that all of the "NEW" 1911 that are being produced by Smith, Taurus, Sig, Springfield, Kimber et cetera and think that they are all going for the same contract.

 

[Ala Dan]

I thought the Kimber Warrior was a U.S. Marine designed service
weapon? But, in tests running side by side against Springfields MC
Operator; I don't know which I would prefer~?

 

[N.M. Edmands]

The better "experts" know they still have more to learn.

 

[mbt2001]

The Warrior is Kimbers new one and I think that it was made to be entered into this contract that the military has... In fact, that is why I think that there are so many new players in the 1911 class...

I would take the operator over the warrior.

I am tired of all of the imports getting the U.S. contracts.

 

[Rob96]

I thought the Kimber Warrior was a U.S. Marine designed service
weapon? But, in tests running side by side against Springfields MC
Operator; I don't know which I would prefer~?

The Warrior is a close copy of the Det. 1 ICQB gun that was spec'd by the Marine unit that is now part of SOCOM.

The Warrior is Kimbers new one and I think that it was made to be entered into this contract that the military has... In fact, that is why I think that there are so many new players in the 1911 class...

I would take the operator over the warrior.

I am tired of all of the imports getting the U.S. contracts.

Negative. The Warrior is not Kimbers submission to the JCP program. From what I have heard and read, this contract will likely go to a polymer frame pistol producer, more specifically H&K.

 

[Cousin Mike]

The article I read was posted (I believe) in one of the general gun discussions here on THR. Maybe Legal/Political, but it was definitely here. The way it was worded led me to believe that they were considering multiple platforms for the .45ACP - maybe I overlooked something about the 1911 coming back, but I think mag capacity is one of their big concerns in replacing the M9.

Still haven't found out anything conclusive of my own, but I sure hope they pick a nice .45 for our guys and girls in uniform

I'd also be interested in NATO's reaction when they find out we switched back to our big, scary, American hand-cannons.

 

[Ken Rainey]

I haven't read anything about Sig getting a contract with the Army for our soldiers but I did find it interesting to read where Smith & Wesson got another order from the U.S. Army to supply 12,000 more pistols (model SW9VE) to the Afganistan National Army to the tune of $3.4 Million.

 

[mbt2001]

I think we should give them .500 S&W's...